Who are the Sorcerers and Dogs outside the New Jerusalem?
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Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
They are cast in to hell.
The Lord certainly doesn't leave them in Heaven since their is no darkness in God.
I've heard some of the false teachers teaching OSAS claim those who got born again and continued living in sin are still in Heaven but not allowed to come in to the Great City with all the believers who did not continue living in sin.
Of course they are false teachers so they are wrong.
Revelation 21:7,8
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:7,8 clearly tells us whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, sorcerers, and liars go to hell
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I'd figured that saucers were those plates under the cups, and dogs, well, is that Chihuahuas or Great Danes?.......ahhhhhh, figuring all this out is a mystery when ones understanding of prophecy is a dogs breakfast......hopefully only a Chihuauas!
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Now you know in the context of Rev 22:15, dogs are the ones who are not righteous.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
The scribes who organized the chapters of these books did well except sometimes the context carries over to the next chapter. Imo Rev. 22:1-5 should have been the end of Rev. 21. Vs 6 goes back, sums things up, and should be the beginning of Rev. 22. "These are the messages to the churches ...", " I am coming quickly ...", it is not longer in that vision of the New Jerusalem.
The New Jerusalem is heaven and a description of it. The 1st earth and 1st heavens (physical atmosphere and universe - not the spiritual realm) will be destroyed and and so heaven is what will be left.
That said, Rev. 15 is speaking in the present tense of evil people _ outside of heaven _ on earth _ all throughout history up to the present time: "sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie".
Think of it, these people could not commit these sins in Hades, ( they couldn't oracticebirmlove anything there) - they aren't dead, they are practicing these things now, alive _ on earth.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
They are those who were invited to the wedding and the feast but did not come, and those who tasted, having been let it, but turned away, engaged but never married.
The wedding feast will soon be over, and those who answered and He came into are declared. While those who turned away and were turned away, see the procession fade from view.
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I am not following you. It looks like there are two different classes here.
Rv 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So there are evil people who were not cast into the lake of fire? Or is "without" an absolute statement that includes the lake of fire?
RepentingChristian
Well-Known Member
There is also mention of the gates being open. It sounds to me that those who are in the "Outer Darkness" can and will enter the Kingdom after they repent and follow Jesus.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
There's no darkness in God's Kingdom so outer darkness is in hell.
Revelation 21:7,8
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:7,8 clearly tells us whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, sorcerers, and liars go to hell
Why not just believe what the Lord says in His Word?
Not doing that is giving place to devils.
That's doctrines of demons.
There's no such thing as purkeytory or whatever the catholics call it these days
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is true. I was referring to the view from the fall made complete as fading into full darkness.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Commandments? Jesus gave us two. If you believe in Him you will do what he says. The Tree of Life is figurative language meaning to consume the Bread of Life, Jesus. He is the source of spiritual life, not to mention physical life as well. Adam and Eve did not eat of the Tree of Life ... until later. I do believe we will see them in heaven ( which btw is entered into through a Gate). Jesus said, I am the gate! Adam and Eve repented, they realized their sin and I do believe lived good live thereafter and passed their beliefs to many of their offspring mentioned in the Bible and more.
So yes, two classes, believers and non-believers, those in Christ and those who our outside of Christ. Whether they are alive evildoers or dead in Hades. My point was that the sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and idoliters mentioned are alive. They do not continue doing these things in Hades, no it's an abrupt stop, an end to it, their judgment, imprisoned and powerless, awaiting their l cast into the Lake of Fire. To me, that is their only hope left, to be destroyed and end their torment. Of course this my opinion which bumpsnup against the traditional eternal hell concept. Destroy means to put an end to. You can't destroy sometime over and over again for eternity. Thatbwould be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing - a contradiction. No I liken the Lake of Fire to Gollum's doom, falling into the volcanoes lava lake. He was burned up in seconds -like paper on a fire and he was no more.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yeah, Jesus continued His teaching ministry thru the New Testament writers so there are more than 2 commandments in the Law of Christ that New Testament believers live under.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
"Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets" Matt. 22:37-40
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
What else did Jesus say as He continued His teaching ministry thru the writings of the Apostles we know as the New Testament?
Did you actually believe the entire New Testament?
I guess not since you think the Lord anointed women to be in authority over men to be pastors and deacons which is NOT what the New Testament teaches.
So you must acknowledge that you do not believe what the Apostles wrote was done under the leading of the Holy Spirit Who only speaks what He hears from the Lord Who only speaks and does what He hears the Father say and do
John 16:13
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
Jesus said He only does and speaks what He sees and hears from the Father (John 12:49, John 5:19, John 8:28, John 8:38) so the Holy Spirit only speaks what He hears from Jesus Who is God's Word.
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No one said Outer darkness is in God's kingdom.
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Rv 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For "without" are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Where is this "without"? It cannot be hell as hell and death have already been caste into the lake of fire. "without" in the context is simply "outside the gates of the city"
Hey, I didn't write the text...all I did was quote it.
How are they alive in the New heaven and New earth?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
They aren't. Remember this is vision Jihn was given of the future. Details are given on Rev. 22, but then the message snaps back to the present time:
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. (This time period includes from the Death and Resurrection of Christ to Judgment Day ).
15 Outside are the dogs,
(Meaning outside His present Kingdom, notnoutside the future New Heaven and Earth)
those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev. 22:13-15
So where us thus "without"? Outside His Kingdom now and until they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation is not chronological. It goes back and forth, overlaps events ... It is like a multi-dimensional transparent sphere with events not just on the surface but inside. So as you turn the sphere you see different vantage points. The obvious proof is when He says in Rev. 22, "behold I am coming soon". That predates most of the Greatbm Tribulation and all if the Millennial Kingdom.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Here ya go, Shep-
Matthew 22:13
Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
2 Peter 2:17
These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.
Matthew 13:42
And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:28
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out.
Revelation 22:15
But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Revelation 21:8
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”
Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
John 3:19-20
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. / Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
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