Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

Davidpt said:

Amils often interpret Revelation 20:8 as referring to all the unsaved nations being deceived after the millennium, and they appeal to 2 Thessalonians 2 to support this.

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Let me just stop you right there. What are "unsaved nations"? It says that the "nations" number as the sand of the sea, so it's obviously talking about individuals, not nations. The Greek word that is normally poorly translated as "nations" in that verse, which is "ethnos", can also mean "heathen" and I believe that's a better translation of the verse. They represent the heathen that Jesus will destroy when He returns.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Davidpt said:

But 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is explicitly about apostates---those who fall away from something they were previously part of. You cannot fall away if you were never saved to begin with.

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Yeah, so?

Davidpt said:

God does not need to send the already lost into strong delusion---they are already condemned.

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You need to read scripture more carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What does Paul indicate that happens first here? People rejecting the truth that would have saved them had they accepted it or God sending them strong delusion? It's the former that happens first. He indicates that God sends them strong delusion AFTER they have already rejected the truth. So, how can you deny that God is sending strong delusion to those who are already lost? If these people only rejected the truth because God made them do so by sending them strong delusion then that would mean they have no choice in relation to salvation. Yet, I know that you believe that people have a choice in relation to salvation. So, you don't even realize that you're contradicting your own beliefs with how you are interpreting this passage.

Think about Pharaoh, for example. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but Pharaoh also hardened his own heart before God ever hardened his heart. So, you can think of the above passage in terms of people hardening their own hearts towards the truth and then God hardening their hearts further in order to give them over to their desires like what Paul wrote about in Romans 1:18-32.

Davidpt said:

If Revelation 20:8 were only about the unsaved in general, the connection to 2 Thess 2:3 collapses entirely.

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I'm not connecting Revelation 20:8 to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, I'm connecting it to 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 which includes those who fall away, but is not just about them.

Davidpt said:

The most coherent reading is that Revelation 20:8 depicts apostates, not the already lost, because only they require deception to rebel against God.

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People have been being deceived since the beginning of time. Revelation 20:8 is not just talking about people being deceived and becoming apostates, but rather it is a concerted, unrestrained effort by Satan to unite people throughout the world in opposition to Jesus and His church. It's one thing to be deceived and not believe the truth, but it's another thing altogether for people to be deceived to the point of actively opposing the truth. Revelation 20:8 is not just talking about people being deceived and going astray, but about people being deceived and having hatred towards Jesus and His church while wanting to silence the gospel and destroy the church.

Davidpt said:

The point being, if Amil is going to work, that's the only way I can see it working.

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Why? Why does your thinking become so narrow when you consider how to make Amil work, but then, as you say sometimes, you think outside the box when it comes to thinking about how to make Premil work? Why can't you ever just look at all of this objectively instead of taking extreme Premil bias into every scripture that you study?

Davidpt said:

Except Amils don't want to entertain that apostates are meant in Revelation 20:8, not all the unsaved in general, if Amils are using 2 Thess 2 to support satan's little season.

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Who in the world are you to declare what Amils want or don't want to do? You don't even understand Amil, as you've proven countless times.

Davidpt said:

Nowhere in all of 2 Thess 2 are all the lost in general in view.

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Wrong! That is a baseless claim. Read the text carefully without making assumptions about it!

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who are "those who perish" who "did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved"? Only apostates? No! It includes apostates, but it describes all of the lost! What lost person does not perish and does not reject the truth that could have saved them?

Davidpt said:

As if it makes sense, for instance, atheists.

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Hello? Do atheists perish because of rejecting the truth that would saved them had they accepted it? Yes, of course! Your doctrinal bias is clouding your vision of this text.

CTK said:

The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.

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I’ll start with point 1. How could the Thessalonians be deceived that a global cosmic event had already come?

Davidpt said:

That God needs to send atheists strong delusion, so that they should believe a lie, that they should be more lost than they already are.

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Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

With your way of thinking the above passage couldn't include atheists when it talks about God giving people "over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient". But, it does. Look what happened first. People decided to not "retain God in their knowledge". Only after that did He give them over to a reprobate mind. So, only after people reject the truth does God give them strong delusion to believe a lie. All that's talking about in 2 Thess 2:9-12 is the same kind of thing that Paul wrote about in Romans 1:18-32. It has to do with God giving unbelievers, including atheists, over to their own wickedness and to "a reprobate mind" when He decides not to contend with them any longer and He gives them over to their desires instead.

Davidpt said:

Because if God does not send them strong delusion this might mean they are simply not lost enough. So let's just do an over kill, so speak. Really makes sense. Right?

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Wrong. Why do you not take ALL of scripture into account when interpreting any given scripture. Why would Romans 1:18-32 not enter your mind when looking at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 in order to understand what God has done in the past and will do again in relation to the lost in the sense of giving them over to their desires instead of giving them more time to repent? Remember, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 relates to a time just before the return of Christ, so it's indicating that God will say enough is enough at some point and no longer contend with unbelievers while sending them strong delusion and giving them over to their wickedness and shortly after that Jesus will return and take vengeance on them (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

Davidpt said:

I will admit this. What I just proposed makes far better sense than Premil except Amils, such as yourself, don't even want to entertain it.

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What are you talking about? You are saying what you proposed would support Amil rather than Premil? How so?

Davidpt said:

You want Rev 20:8 to be meaning all the lost in general who would already be deceived during the millennium to begin with.

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This is where your thinking goes astray. It's not talking about deception in general as you think. You think that because you believe that Satan's binding has to do with him being completely incapacitated and not able to deceive or do anything at all. That is not the correct understanding of his binding. If you look at what happens when Satan is loosed, you can see that he tries to unite people into opposing and attacking "the camp of the saints", which I believe refers to the church. It's more than just a general effort to lead people astray from the trruth, but rather an effort to unite people in active opposition against the church while trying to destroy it.

Davidpt said:

Which then equals an over kill, thus equals nonsense, that satan needs to deceive someone after the millennium that are already deceived during the millennium.

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Look here. If your understanding of Satan's binding was accurate, then I would agree with you about this, but it's not. So, you go astray in your thinking about all this by not accurately understanding what Satan's binding is about. Of course, it wouldn't make sense to think that Satan is deceiving already deceived people, but that's not what Revelation 20 is talking about.

Davidpt said:

Rather than deceive someone after the millennium that were no longer deceived during the millennium.

Thus, per this scenario, they are among the saved during the millennium, then fall away after the millennium. Hmmm...maybe I should switch to Amil since this view could obviously use a little refining of things.

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LOL. I would not get any joy out of seeing you become an Amil if it was based on misinterpreting the text.

claninja said:

I’ll start with point 1. How could the Thessalonians be deceived that a global cosmic event had already come?

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It isn't that they could be fooled into thinking that a global cosmic event had already come. They weren't stupid. That would be quite obvious. What Paul was warning them about was not to believe anyone saying that the day of the Lord did not involve a global cosmic event and involved something else while trying to tell them that it had already come. Those who remembered what Paul taught them and believed it would not be fooled by such nonsense, but anyone who forgot what he taught about that or wasn't sure if they believed what he taught about that would be vulnerable to possibly being deceived by someone telling them that the day of the Lord involved different things than what Paul taught about it and had already come.

Let's say that the destruction that Paul related to the day of the Lord referred to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, as you lean towards believing is the case. Why would the Thessalonians, who were mostly Gentiles, have been "shaken in mind or troubled" by someone claiming that had already happened? They would have known that was prophesied to happen, right? Why would it bother them to hear of that happening when they knew it was something that was prophesied to happen? Why would they be shaken in mind or troubled to hear about a prophecy being fulfilled? That would only make sense if they were somehow not aware of that prophecy.

Davy said:

Already you have OMITTED an important part of Paul's warning right after your No.2.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

Paul gave those two verse's events together... in that prophecy. Those two verses are not to be separated like you are doing.

It will be that coming "man of sin" playing God in a stone temple in Jerusalem that will be the cause of that "falling away", which Paul later in 2 Thess.2:11 called a "strong delusion". That prophecy is not manifest yet today, as it requires the new 3rd temple and that "man of sin" coming to sit in it playing God, in JERUSALEM.


Those stuck on the old Reformer's 16th century doctrine against the Catholic Church and a pope often omit that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 verse in connection with verse 3.

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Francisco Ribera snags another one.

Obviously you neglected to learn to read.

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

Davy said:

in a stone temple in Jerusalem

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Presumption and Gross misapprehension of the character of God's purposes. Now be honest. Where and what was God's temple at the time of Paul's writing?

covenantee said:

Francisco Ribera snags another one.

Obviously you neglected to learn to read.

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

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That's pretty much just 'junk', man-made propaganda.

God's written Word has already established who the coming Antichrist-false Messiah will be, and what he will do in Jerusalem. 2 Thessalonians 2 is just one prophetic example of several written in God's Word pointing to a JEWISH IMPOSTER in Jerusalem who will mimic Christ Jesus.

The orthodox Jews are not... going to bow to a Catholic Christian pope. That they will is a stupid idea.

Brakelite said:

Presumption and Gross misapprehension of the character of God's purposes. Now be honest. Where and what was God's temple at the time of Paul's writing?

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Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 was pointing to a future stone temple in Jerusalem when that "man of sin" will come to play God sitting in it, and working great signs and wonders to deceive the world with. Jesus covered the same prophecy in His Olivet discourse which is from the Book of Daniel.

Thus your false "Presumption and Gross misapprehension of the character of God's purposes" is actually about YOUR REJECTION of the relevant Bible Scripture to the "strong delusion" event of 2 Thess.2.

Davy said:

That's pretty much just 'junk', man-made propaganda.

God's written Word has already established who the coming Antichrist-false Messiah will be, and what he will do in Jerusalem. 2 Thessalonians 2 is just one prophetic example of several written in God's Word pointing to a JEWISH IMPOSTER in Jerusalem who will mimic Christ Jesus.

The orthodox Jews are not... going to bow to a Catholic Christian pope. That they will is a stupid idea.

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Ever hear of Francisco Ribera?

He's done a superb job of duping and deceiving you.

Turning you into a papist perpetuating futurist fallacies and fantasies.

Incapable of understanding what the man of sin has claimed about himself.

What you think he will do, he has long ago done.

But for those who are not duped and deceived,

Thank God for the Reformation.

Spiritual Israelite said:

LOL. But, you won't take the false doctrines that many of them taught.

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Like Paul counselled, keep that which is true, reject that which isn't.

Davy said:

Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 was pointing to a future stone temple in Jerusalem when that "man of sin" will come to play God sitting in it, and working great signs and wonders to deceive the world with. Jesus covered the same prophecy in His Olivet discourse which is from the Book of Daniel.

Thus your false "Presumption and Gross misapprehension of the character of God's purposes" is actually about YOUR REJECTION of the relevant Bible Scripture to the "strong delusion" event of 2 Thess.2.

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You didn't answer the question. I'll ask again. Where and what was God's temple at the time of Paul's writing?

covenantee said:

But for those who are not duped and deceived,

Thank God for the Reformation.

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But which clearly needs to continue for some.

covenantee said:

Ever hear of Francisco Ribera?

He's done a superb job of duping and deceiving you.

Turning you into a papist perpetuating futurist fallacies and fantasies.

Incapable of understanding what the man of sin has claimed about himself.

What you think he will do, he has long ago done.

But for those who are not duped and deceived,

Thank God for the Reformation.

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My French ancestors came out of the French Protestant Reformation to the Americas in the 1600's, thank you. No need for you attempt to educate me. I see it as the other way around.

The Reformation era of 1600's Europe saw the RCC pope as the Biblical Antichrist, and even thought Jesus was returning in their day. It did not happen. So nor was the pope the Antichrist for the end of this world.

The result of the Protestant Reformation was a separation from the Catholic system, which the Church in Britain actually already was separate from the RCC. The British Church has a history that pre-dates the Catholic Church in Rome.

So what you are following with still believing the pope is the Antichrist, and that Rome is the Babylon Harlot is an old 16th century failed doctrine. And that begs the question of just WHO would want to keep pushing that failed doctrine today. It is not all Protestant Churches, because not all Protestant Churches are still pushing that old Reformation idea that the pope is the Antichrist.

Brakelite said:

You didn't answer the question. I'll ask again. Where and what was God's temple at the time of Paul's writing?

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I did more... than answer your question. I showed you how that "temple of God" Apostle Paul mentioned has to mean a literal stone temple in Jerusalem, because of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy. Now if you are wanting me to play in your little coloring book following the lines that you set instead of what God's Word says as written, then you assume too much.

Spiritual Israelite said:

It isn't that they could be fooled into thinking that a global cosmic event had already come. They weren't stupid. That would be quite obvious. What Paul was warning them about was not to believe anyone saying that the day of the Lord did not involve a global cosmic event and involved something else while trying to tell them that it had already come. Those who remembered what Paul taught them and believed it would not be fooled by such nonsense, but anyone who forgot what he taught about that or wasn't sure if they believed what he taught about that would be vulnerable to possibly being deceived by someone telling them that the day of the Lord involved different things than what Paul taught about it and had already come.

Let's say that the destruction that Paul related to the day of the Lord referred to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, as you lean towards believing is the case. Why would the Thessalonians, who were mostly Gentiles, have been "shaken in mind or troubled" by someone claiming that had already happened? They would have known that was prophesied to happen, right? Why would it bother them to hear of that happening when they knew it was something that was prophesied to happen? Why would they be shaken in mind or troubled to hear about a prophecy being fulfilled? That would only make sense if they were somehow not aware of that prophecy.

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My argument wasn’t that they could be fooled into the thinking that a cosmic global event already occurred.

My argument is that it doesn’t make logical sense that someone could be fooled into believing they missed the day of the Lord, IF it was generally understood as a global cosmic event.

What Paul doesn’t do is correct a misunderstanding of what the day of the Lord is beyond the coming and the gathering. Instead he provides 2 prerequisites (man of sin/apsotacy) which must occur first, so that they might not be deceived that it already happened.

The point is - If the day of the Lord is a cosmic/global event, then you don’t need prerequisites to prevent deception that it already occurred. That would be an absurd argument.


To your other point, I think this is a much stronger counter argument. Assuming the preterist position, Why would gentile converts in thessalonica be “shaken in mind” if Paul meant the destruction of temple/great tribulation/ of Jerusalem gathering into the wedding feast?

I’ll offer two points -

1.) in his letters to the Thessalonians, Paul stated they would experience relief from their persecutors at the day of the Lord. If it already happened and they were still facing oppression, that would be a significant concern.

2.) the complete overthrow of the Jewish covenant worship center signified a gathering of the good and bad into the wedding feast according to Jesus in the parable of the wedding feast. If this was part of the day of the Lord, they could be concerned they missed this gathering or were not a part of it.

Davy said:

My French ancestors came out of the French Protestant Reformation to the Americas in the 1600's, thank you. No need for you attempt to educate me. I see it as the other way around.

The Reformation era of 1600's Europe saw the RCC pope as the Biblical Antichrist, and even thought Jesus was returning in their day. It did not happen. So nor was the pope the Antichrist for the end of this world.

The result of the Protestant Reformation was a separation from the Catholic system, which the Church in Britain actually already was separate from the RCC. The British Church has a history that pre-dates the Catholic Church in Rome.

So what you are following with still believing the pope is the Antichrist, and that Rome is the Babylon Harlot is an old 16th century failed doctrine. And that begs the question of just WHO would want to keep pushing that failed doctrine today. It is not all Protestant Churches, because not all Protestant Churches are still pushing that old Reformation idea that the pope is the Antichrist.

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So you'd rather believe the fabrications of counter-Reformation Jesuit Francisco Ribera, than your forebears who sacrificed their lives for your spiritual freedom.

That's betrayal.

Are these the claims of an antichrist?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

covenantee said:

So you'd rather believe the fabrications of counter-Reformation Jesuit Francisco Ribera, than your forebears who sacrificed their lives for your spiritual freedom.

That's betrayal.

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I believe GOD'S WRITTEN WORD, not the political mumbo-jumbo you keep pushing about a pope.


And here are the ACTUAL Bible prophetic parameters REQUIRED for the coming Antichrist:

1. deceived Jews in Jerusalem at the end who will setup the coming Antichrist as King over Israel will claim he is born of the tribe of Judah, the Jews. That one is born of the tribe of Judah and house of David to be King of Israel is a requirement God made, and the orthodox Jews abide by that.

2. the Antichrist will sit in a stone temple in Jerusalem (Paul's "temple of God") at the end of this world during the "great tribulation" time. He will proclaim himself as God.

3. the Antichrist will place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL for false worship at the new temple in JERUSALEM, which is defined by Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11 about the "vile person". Jesus included that future event in His Olivet discourse SIGNS for the end of this world.

4. the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 is given ABOUT the Jews and Jerusalem, NOT Christianity, nor a Christian Church or a pope.

5. per Paul in 2 Thess.2, Jesus returns to destroy the false one with the brightness of His coming. Zechariah 14 points to Jesus' future coming being a return to JERUSALEM, upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES, which will cause a great valley to be formed there on earth. That is where the Antichrist will be destroyed at.

6. the orthodox unbelieving Jews are looking for the coming of MESSIAH, a Jewish MESSIAH, not a Christian pope. Trying to claim a Christian pope can be the Jew's Messiah is like comparing a piece of lead with a piece of gold.

7. the Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 Scripture declares the orthodox Jews will startup old covenant worship with animal sacrifices again, in JERUSALEM.

8. the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol REQUIRES a standing... Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem, not the Vatican in Rome.

Davy said:

I believe GOD'S WRITTEN WORD, not the political mumbo-jumbo you keep pushing about a pope.


And here are the ACTUAL Bible prophetic parameters REQUIRED for the coming Antichrist:

1. deceived Jews in Jerusalem at the end who will setup the coming Antichrist as King over Israel will claim he is born of the tribe of Judah, the Jews. That one is born of the tribe of Judah and house of David to be King of Israel is a requirement God made, and the orthodox Jews abide by that.

2. the Antichrist will sit in a stone temple in Jerusalem (Paul's "temple of God") at the end of this world during the "great tribulation" time. He will proclaim himself as God.

3. the Antichrist will place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL for false worship at the new temple in JERUSALEM, which is defined by Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11 about the "vile person". Jesus included that future event in His Olivet discourse SIGNS for the end of this world.

4. the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 is given ABOUT the Jews and Jerusalem, NOT Christianity, nor a Christian Church or a pope.

5. per Paul in 2 Thess.2, Jesus returns to destroy the false one with the brightness of His coming. Zechariah 14 points to Jesus' future coming being a return to JERUSALEM, upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES, which will cause a great valley to be formed there on earth. That is where the Antichrist will be destroyed at.

6. the orthodox unbelieving Jews are looking for the coming of MESSIAH, a Jewish MESSIAH, not a Christian pope. Trying to claim a Christian pope can be the Jew's Messiah is like comparing a piece of lead with a piece of gold.

7. the Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 Scripture declares the orthodox Jews will startup old covenant worship with animal sacrifices again, in JERUSALEM.

8. the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol REQUIRES a standing... Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem, not the Vatican in Rome.

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You seem afraid to answer the question.

Are these the claims of an antichrist?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

claninja said:

My argument wasn’t that they could be fooled into the thinking that a cosmic global event already occurred.

My argument is that it doesn’t make logical sense that someone could be fooled into believing they missed the day of the Lord, IF it was generally understood as a global cosmic event.

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Of course. And I've never said otherwise. But, could they potentially be fooled into thinking that the day of the Lord was something different than how Paul described it? Of course they could have. So, that's what you're missing. It has nothing to do with them possibly thinking they missed an unmissable cosmic global event, but rather has to do with them thinking that they missed whatever the false reports indicated that the day of the Lord would entail, which could have been something besides a cosmic global event.

claninja said:

What Paul doesn’t do is correct a misunderstanding of what the day of the Lord is beyond the coming and the gathering. Instead he provides 2 prerequisites (man of sin/apsotacy) which must occur first, so that they might not be deceived that it already happened.

The point is - If the day of the Lord is a cosmic/global event, then you don’t need prerequisites to prevent deception that it already occurred. That would be an absurd argument.

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I agree with that, but what I'm saying is that I take Paul to be saying that the day of the Lord couldn't have come yet because even the things that were to happen before the day of the Lord hadn't even happened yet. If you look at it that way, there's no reason to think that he should have instead told them to not believe anyone claiming that the day of the Lord had come because the global destruction associated with the day of the Lord had not yet occurred. Sure, he could have said it that way, but that doesn't mean we should necessarily expect that he should have said it that way in the case that the day of the Lord involves global destruction on the day that Jesus returns in the future. By pointing out that the things that were supposed to happen before the day of the Lord hadn't even happened yet would show how absurd it was for anyone to claim that the day of the Lord had already come.

You expect, in the case of the day of the Lord being a future event involving global destruction when Jesus returns, that he should have at least said to them something like: "Not only has the global destruction that occurs on the day of the Lord not happened yet, as evidenced by the fact that we're still here, but the falling away and man of sin being revealed have to happen first before that day comes and those things haven't happened yet, so the day of the Lord has obviously not yet come". But, I don't think that would have to be the case.

claninja said:

To your other point, I think this is a much stronger counter argument. Assuming the preterist position, Why would gentile converts in thessalonica be “shaken in mind” if Paul meant the destruction of temple/great tribulation/ of Jerusalem gathering into the wedding feast?

I’ll offer two points -

1.) in his letters to the Thessalonians, Paul stated they would experience relief from their persecutors at the day of the Lord. If it already happened and they were still facing oppression, that would be a significant concern.

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But, how would the destruction of Jerusalem result in them experiencing relief from their persecutors who would obviously not be directly affected by the destruction of Jerusalem since they were located in Thessalonica?

claninja said:

2.) the complete overthrow of the Jewish covenant worship center signified a gathering of the good and bad into the wedding feast according to Jesus in the parable of the wedding feast. If this was part of the day of the Lord, they could be concerned they missed this gathering or were not a part of it.

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This point makes no sense to me. I don't know how you would not relate a reference to the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him (2 Thess 2:1) to what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 where He talked about being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes. I'm pretty sure they would not be concerned about somehow missing being gathered and caught up to meet Christ in the air. Do you really see no connection between 2 Thessalonians 2 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? If you do see that connection, then how would being invited to the wedding feast correlate with meeting Jesus in the air at His second coming?