Reason for The Crusades explained

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Matthias

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Following up on post #2298, Sprinkle offers what he calls “the most significant point” -

”So, third, Paul says that God executes vengeance through Rome after he prohibits Christians from doing so. Compare these two statements, which are only a few verses apart:

’Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”’ (12:19)

’For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out the God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. (13:4)

Linguistically, there‘s a contrast. An intentional one. One that is unmistakeable. Yet missed by so many bible believing evangelicals.”

”Romans 13 Doesn’t Tell Christians To Kill Their Enemy”)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

I trust you didn’t miss the point. I’ll provide Sprinkle’s conclusion in my next post.
 
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Matthias

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Following up on post #2301, Sprinkle concludes his article -

“What Paul says about God’s use of the government in Romans 13:4 is stated in direct contrast to what he commands the church in Romans 12:19.

No Christian can claim to carry out Romans 13:4. It’s not a command. It’s a statement about God’s sovereign use (not approval) of secular governments. The command given to Christians comes in Romans 12:19.

Romans 13 is all about vengeance. And vengeance is God’s business, not ours. We don’t need to avenge evil, because God will. And one way that God will is through governing authorities. Moreover, the command to submit to governing authorities in Romans 13:1 is the last of Paul’s litany of commands in Romans 12:9-21. Bless those who persecute you, love your enemy, don’t avenge evil, and submit to your governing authorities.

Far from allowing Christians to kill their enemies, Romans 13 underscores the church’s submissive posture in a violent world.

Romans 13 cannot be responsibly interpreted to prove that Christians should use guns to kill their enemies. Quite the opposite.”

(“Romans 13 Doesn’t Tell Christians To Kill Their Enemy”)


@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

”God commands Christians to kill their enemies” is 180 degrees opposite of what God commands Christians to do.

 
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Justified

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I do but I paraphrase, which seems to lose you every time, which is why you come back with “quote the post where I said those exact words.” sml
Completely changing what someone says isn't paraphrasing, it's lying and deception.

Sure it is. Don’t blame me for your inability to communicate fully and effectively. The question is the reasons FOR, not summarize a goal during.
You're an incredibly dishonest debater. I am communicating just fine. You're either just reading into things others say just as you do with Scripture, which is why you so often come to wrong conclusions, or you have a comprehension problem, or both.

What I gave as the reason for the crusades was 'to take back the "Holy Land."'

And a reason is a goal. Definition of "goal":

1. the end toward which effort is directed

Definition of GOAL

Synonyms of "goal":

purpose
objective
aim
intention

Definition of GOAL

And irrelevant to the topic under discussion.
Completely relevant to other aspects of the discussion, which you were fully involved in, such as HERE. Once again your lack of integrity is showing. You don't want to address the verses I posted because they show how vacuous your position is.

No. You are confusing things that are separate, different combining them as if they’re the same thing. For instance, can you admit that Jesus did not cook spiritual fish for his friends on the sea of Galilea; but actual, carnal, fleshy, worldly, physical fish?
You're question has nothing to do with anything. Of course Jesus cooked literal fish, what else would they have been? The clear contradiction with your question here is that every verse I posted is to be read in the same way--based on what they plainly and clearly state--but you dismiss them as "spiritual verses" or "soulful verses," whatever those mean. Once again, you're only doing so so that you don't have to answer to the very simple, clear commands and examples in Scripture for how Christians are to treat others.

Since you're so fond of (falsely) believing that because the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible that the Trinity is therefore false, why don't you show me where "spiritual verses" and "soulful verses" are mentioned in the Bible. Or does that argument only apply to those you disagree with?

Non-responsive reply. Your unwillingness to answer questions, engage in an actual back and forth discussion is telling. I’ll leave it there.
You are one of the biggest hypocrites in these forums. I very clearly replied, and try to reply to all questions, while you continue to ignore some simple, clear verses put to you. This has happened in every discussion with you. You desperately need to learn how context is central to meaning, how to properly interpret Scripture, and some basic critical thinking skills.

Jesus tells the disciples to buy swords, but then for 12 of them, two is enough. Then when Peter cuts off the ear of a servant, he says, "No more of this!" and that "all who take the sword will perish by the sword." Jesus tells Pilate that his kingdom is not of this world and that if it was, his disciples would be fighting. In other words, basic reasoning tells us that Jesus cannot have told the disciples to buy swords for the purpose of going on the offensive.
 

amigo de christo

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They forgot that part . they hold only to the part where JESUS had told them to buy a sword .
THERE was a reason HE did that . THEN they forget the part where AFter peter uses it , JESUS warns him
PUT THY SWORD into its place for ALL they that take the SWORD shall PERISH with the sword .
JESUS used this TO teach them the right way and NOT to use the Sword . JESUS even healed that man
whose name was malchus , whose ear peter had cut off . These folks DO NOT read their bible my friend .
What little they do know has often been twisted . This people know only about enough of the bible
to make them very much a danger to themselves and anyone willing to listen to them .
 

amigo de christo

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Yet he will kill more than anyone ever. That means nothing to you.
JESUS WILL . BECAUSE VENGEANCE IS HIS and HIS ALONE . veagence belongs to GOD and TO GOD ALONE .
NOT to them wicked crusaders or anyone else .
OUR MISSION was to SIMPLY have lived and walked AS JESUS DID .
AND HOW DID JESUS WALK while on earth . I never seen him kill anyone or even tell one of his own to do so .
WRATH will come upon them . NO doubt about that wrangler.
BUT wrath is not ours to give while on earth . AND guess what is going to be the final straw wrangler .
WHEN YOU SEE CHRISTENDOM , who were and was to be preaching JESUS
No longer preaching JESUS but an anti christ peace plan that DENIES JESUS then know and understand
THE WRATH OF GOD is coming down upon all whose hands joined into such an anti christ peace .
YOU know what that means right . IT MEANS GET out of anything connected to this ecumeincal intefaith and right now .
Many have already bought the lie and many more soon will. GET OUT of it . Time to rather preach JESUS
to all .
 
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Anchorite

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How many bad guys has @Wrangler killed so far, since he idolizes the vile Crusaders?

He is actually a warrior theoretically, but a pacifist in reality.

He also thinks lying is not a sin. So he lies constantly in discussions here.
 
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amigo de christo

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How many bad guys has @Wrangler killed so far, since he idolizes the vile Crusaders?

He is actually a warrior theoretically, but a pacifist in reality.

He also thinks lying is not a sin. So he lies constantly in discussions here.
as of yet i also doubt he has killed anyone .
Now i must ask you to take a seat real quickly .
Because soon the time cometh when under their so called inclusive ecuemincal intefaith peace plan
MANY sheep are going to be put to death by their crusades .
And if wrangler dont get out of this , HE is going to be a co helper to this . Maybe not with the sword
but he will be betraying true sheep and delivering them up to authorites .
BELIEVING that anyone who has no part in this inclusive religoin , IS a threat and a danger to society and the world .
What we witnessed in large the last twenty five or thirty years was a huge uptick
in the ecumenical lets join hands and be one phase .
And even now they are being prepared in mind to begin the second phase .
CRUSADES and roundups against all that conformed not .
wrangler has no idea what he is doing or following . m any do not .
THEY do not realize the crusades phase is coming . THEY only see the threat of islam extremism.
WHAT they cannot see is they are all pawns being made ready
for to come against ALL that did not conform to their religoin , INCLUSIVE RELIGOIN .
THIS is all a set up , its a smoke screen meant to put fear into them .
And to get to join hands with INTERFAITH and its anti christ peace . LOOK at its interreligious diagloue .
And wrangler does not care they say that . TEHY SAY ALL RELIGOINS SERVE THE SAME GOD .
and that the other religoins god is not better than our GOD . that we all serve the same GOD and HIS plan is for world peace .
NOW who just GOT DENEID IN THAT . JESUS DID . THEM other religoins DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS THE SON OF GOD
or CHRIST . THIS is a snare . but wrangler does not care that JESUS has been trod under foot .
ALL he cares about is DJT and his peace , his interfaith . THEY are all going down on JESUS day .
AND seeing i do not desire his or anyone elses death , ME POINTS TO JESUS and warns them all GET OUT OF IT NOW .
 
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NayborBear

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Whether they are fellow brother's in Christ remains to be seen, as they are following a Christ I do not recognize from Scripture.
I wouldn't go as far in saying "brother's in Christ!".....Yet, anyway! Potential candidates OF the "Order of Melchizedek?" Yes! Reigning WITH Christ for those thousand years (which I refer to as a "slice of eternity)? Would be a "bit" premature from my perspective. But? You WILL have the advantage of NOT having the adversary around to "cloud" or negatively impact Further Training!
 

NayborBear

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That didn’t stop Jesus from commanding his disciples to buy a sword in this world.
I'm SUPPOSING here Wrangler! :Laughingoutloud:
But, I'm supposing that outside the using a sword for anything more "picking one's teeth and cleaning your fingernails?"
And, that "fending off predators on four feet, as WELL as two-footed ones'?"
Is: "Like the sky!" (over their heads) :Laughingoutloud::jest:

But like other such applications of "a logical mind?"
None of these applications of the physical are recorded.
So? They DON'T EXIST!
 
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Justified

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I'm SUPPOSING here Wrangler! :Laughingoutloud:
But, I'm supposing that outside the using a sword for anything more "picking one's teeth and cleaning your fingernails?"
And, that "fending off predators on four feet, as WELL as two-footed ones'?"
Is: "Like the sky!" (over their heads) :Laughingoutloud::jest:

But like other such applications of "a logical mind?"
None of these applications of the physical are recorded.
So? They DON'T EXIST!
Perhaps you would like to address the following passages, since @Wrangler is either unwilling or unable to do so, especially since they include Jesus’s recorded response to an “application of the physical”:

Mat 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Luk 6:31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
Luk 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luk 6:33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
...
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
...
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1Co 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;
1Co 4:13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

2Co 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

2Th 1:4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

2Ti 3:11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.

1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Very importantly, we should consider Jesus's example:

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.

The Bible doesn't get any clearer; these are incredibly simple passages to understand. And, again, it's worth pointing out that, following Christ's example, in the whole of the NT there is no example of believers ever fighting back, despite being persecuted by Jewish and Roman authorities.
 
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Matthias

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“Mistaken Methods

The Crusaders committed horrible acts of hatred and violence, distorting Jesus’ methods of self-sacrifice and love.

Today, the Belvoir fortress symbolizes a sad chapter in Christian history. The Crusaders mistakenly used their own violent methods, rather than following Jesus’ example. …

Damaging Consequences

The hypocrisy and hatred of the Crusades deeply damaged the witness of real Christians, building a wall that pushed many non-Christians away.

The Crusades were a terrible chapter in Christian history. Instead of drawing people to Jesus, they built a wall around him, pushing outsiders away. And instead of following Jesus’ example of self-sacrifice, they sacrificed others for their own personal gain.

Sadly, Crusaders justified their cruel behavior with lies. They branded the Jews as killers of Jesus, ignoring the fact that Jesus died for their own sins. They considered the Muslims to be infidels who had unrightfully inhabited the Holy Land. But then the Crusaders, outsiders themselves, used violence to overtake the land.

The hypocrisy and hatred of the Crusades deeply damaged the the witness of real Christians. Non-Christians often equate Jesus with the violence of the Crusades. Not surprisingly, they want nothing to do with him.

Today, Crusader fortresses like Belvoir remind Middle Easterners of the hatred advanced by so-called Christians The legacy of the Crusades is one that has kept many from entering the kingdom of God. ...”

(Ray Vander Laan, “Misguided Faith”)


@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

Actions which keep people from entering the kingdom of God are, by definition, unChristian and antiChristian. Defending them places a person in opposition to Jesus.

Is it true that the Crusades deeply damage the Christian witness? You should investigate it for yourselves.

A suggestion: Speak with Muslims and Jews about the Crusades and ask them if that history has anything to do with them not being attracted to Jesus.

If you do that and find that it does put them off on following Jesus, what would you do about it?
 
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rockytopva

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I believe in the churches as seven...

1. Messianic - Beginning with Peter
2. Martyr - Beginning with Paul
3. Pergamos - Pygros - An elevated fortified structure
4. Thyatira - hyatira = "odor of affliction"
5. Sardis - A Gem - Protestants
6. Philadelphia - A revived age
7. Laodicea - Rich, increased with goods, and have need of nothing?

This whole topic is Pergameon and Thyatirean age stuff. In which...

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Hebrews 9:27

The people of the time are dead and gone! Awaiting judgment! We live in a time of totally different issues.
 

Matthias

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We live in a time of totally different issues.

The words of the Preacher came to mind -

“What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.”

(Ecclesiastes 1:9)

War is an issue that has afflicted mankind from early on in our history and remains an issue in our time.
 
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