Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course. A judgment seat is a throne, so the judgment seat of Christ describes the throne of judgment that Jesus will be sitting on when He comes with His angels, as described in Matthew 25:31-46. Scripture describes all people as bowing before Jesus Christ and being judged by Jesus on His judgment seat according to what they have done (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10-12), which is exactly what is described in Matthew 25:31-46.
The judgment seat of Christ is not called a “throne" in the same sense as the great white throne in Revelation. Where in Scripture is the JSC ever called a 'throne'? It's defined as a "step" the foot set on a throne. Throne is defined "a stately seat" of power or potentate. The great white throne is a separate, final judgment for unbelievers, while the judgment seat of Christ is the evaluation for believers’ works in this age. When we are found faithful by Christ' 'bema seat' in this life, we shall not come into condemnation at the GWT.
1 Corinthians 4:1-2 (KJV) Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What is the difference between His seat and His throne? Matthew 25:31-46 very clearly portrays both believers and unbelievers standing before Jesus at the same time. As an amillennialist, why would you deny that? It's one of the major things that differentiates amils from premils. They say that believers will be judged 1,000+ years before unbelievers will. But, passages like Matthew 25:31-46 prove that wrong.
Judgment Seat. Judgment Throne. Same thing. This is just not a strong argument that you're making here.
Where do you get this from?
No, it isn't. Unbelievers are clearly portrayed as being judged in Matthew 25:31-46 at the same time as believers. Why deny this?
What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46 then? It clearly portrays both believers and unbelievers being gathered at the same time when Jesus comes again in the future with His angels with both believers and unbelievers appearing before Jesus to give an account of themselves in relation to how they treated "the least of these" and such. Surely, unbelievers will not be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" on more than one occasion, so Matthew 25:41 is clearly a parallel verse to Revelation 20:15. But, Matthew 25:31-46 portrays believers as appearing before Jesus at that same time and then inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I showed you the difference!
Reading between the lines, it seems you are admitting the JSC is never called a throne in the Bible!
From the Strong's Concordance of Hebrew and Greek! It shows what Greek word has been used for defining in English, as well as the meaning of the words in both Hebrew and Greek.
Here is my complete quote: "The great white throne is a separate, final judgment for unbelievers, while the judgment seat of Christ is the evaluation for believers’ works in this age." Why are you denying this? Is there a particular doctrine you're trying to protect?
Believers are not judged at the great white throne! Only the DEAD are judged there. Believers, on the right hand of Christ are not judged there, rather they receive final fulfillment of eternal life, then clothed in physical IMMORTAL & INCORRUPTIBLE body of flesh. Eternal life we received when we believed and were born again is not of flesh, but of our spirit, where we, since being born again already possess eternal life in Christ just as He has promised.
Why do you continue to request that I repeat myself again and again? I have already repeatedly said at the GWTJ which Matthew 25 portrays is the judgment of the DEAD (goats on His left), not His sheep. Where in Matthew 25 does is say believers are judged according to their works at the GWTJ? Believers shall be there and witness the judgment of the DEAD, but believers are not judged then, instead they shall be blessed of the Father for their works as they are fully physically rewarded with the Kingdom of God in the new heaven and new earth prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
JSOC is taught by Paul and is where believers saved by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel are subject to loss/rewards yet remain saved.
Those not saved by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel go to the GWTJ
..
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
All of mankind throughout all time who are saved are saved through the gospel, that is the message of entrance into the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus. I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that only Paul preached the gospel, and that his Apostolic gospel was superior or different from the gospel preached by other disciples of Christ?
How do you define Gospel? The Bible is replete with verses telling His disciples to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that whosoever hears and believes in Christ shall be saved!
Paul gives us the reason for why people MUST hear the gospel and believe in Christ to be saved. This was true for Jews of faith who lived and died in faith before the cross & resurrection, and it is true after the cross and resurrection for Gentiles (all people) of faith also.
Romans 10:8-11 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:12-15 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Those living under the Law of Moses, Israel of Old, learned of salvation and entrance into the Kingdom of God through one known then only as The Messiah or One who was to come. The Law pointed them to their need of a Savior, and the prophets foretell of a coming Messiah to save all who by grace through faith believe in Him. No man in any age can be saved without believing on Christ, who is the one and only Savior for man if they believe on Him.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Not using scripture. Show me the scripture which would indicate that they are not the same. Romans 14:10-12 indicates that unbelievers also will be bowing before Him on His judgment seat because Paul references Isaiah 45:22-24 there which has even those "who are incensed against Him" bowing before Him. And that's exactly what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
LOL. A judgment seat and judgment throne are the same thing. Why do you make things so unnecessarily complicated? I don't get it.
A judgment seat and judgment throne are the same thing. You're just trying too hard here.
Because it isn't true. Hello? Matthew 25:31-46 very clearly portrays the rewards/judgment of both believers and unbelievers as occurring when Jesus comes with His angels. Why are you denying this?
I'm not trying to protect anything. I'm just telling you how I see this and most non-preterist amillennialists see it this way as well. Your view is definitely in a very small minority. I do believe that my view of Matthew 25:31-46 supports amillennialism because it refutes the idea of a judgment of only believers around the time of the second coming with a separate judgment of believers 1,000+ years later.
Are you using the word "judged" as a synonym for "condemned" here? If so, of course I'm not saying that believers are condemned at the great white throne. Hello? But, the day of judgment is not just for condemning unbelievers to the lake of fire. Notice that the book of life is opened at the great white throne judgment. Why would that be the case if only unbelievers are there? The day of judgment is also for rewarding believers with eternal bodily life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world in the new heavens and new earth.
LOL. No one is forcing you to repeat yourself.
Do you understand that judgment is not just condemnation, but also rewards? The sheep are clearly gathered with the goats before Jesus at the same time when He comes with His angels and then Jesus talks to both the sheep and the goats. So, to try to claim that the sheep aren't there is just ludicrous. They will be there and give an account of themselves, as Paul said we all will, and it will turn out very well for us there as we will inherit eternal life with immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world in the new heavens and new earth at that time. What is hard to understand about this? There shouldn't be anything hard to understand about this, but you make things unnecessarily convoluted for some unknown reason.
Here:
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
See how Jesus rewarded them according to how they treated "the least of these my brethren"?
Paul taught that believers will be judged according to their works, so why would that not be what Matthew 25:34-40 is describing?
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Goodness gracious. Yes, that is what I believe as well. Hello? Why do you waste time making straw man arguments? You are arguing with someone who says that believers will be judged in the sense of being condemned at that time. That is not what I'm saying at all! What I'm saying will happen at that time is exactly what you said here. So, you wasted your time making an argument that doesn't even apply to what I believe.
Matthew 25 is depicting the great white throne judgment AFTER Christ comes again. Ro 14 does NOT indicate unbelievers bowing before the judgment seat of Christ. Unbelievers will be called to bow before God at the great white throne. OTOH believers have already bowed before the judgment seat of Christ confessing Him as Lord and Savior. Since believers have already given account of himself to God at the judgment seat of Christ, we have no longer to fear death, because the life we received through Him is eternal.
Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:11-12 (KJV) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Have you never considered how believers bow down and offer thanks in prayer unto the Lord for what He has done for us?
Ephesians 3:14-16 (KJV) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Show the verses that indicate a seat and throne are the same thing!
Judgment of believers: This judgment is often referred to as the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Bema Seat Judgment. It is not a judgment of condemnation but rather a reckoning of the believer’s works after salvation. It is mentioned in passages such as 2 Corinthians 5:10 & Romans 14:10.
The judgment seat of Christ is a judgment for works of believers while in the body. Body can be defined physical flesh, or spiritually the body of believers; the church.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10 (KJV) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (KJV) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Judgment of unbelievers: This judgment is known as the Great White Throne Judgment. It is a judgment of condemnation for those who have rejected Christ, whose words follow them and will determine their eternal destiny. This judgment is detailed in Revelation 20:11-15.
At the great white throne judgment believers are NOT judged according to their works done while in the body but COMMENDED for doing deeds of righteousness toward all men especially the body of Christ; the church, or while alive in mortal body of flesh. There is a difference between judging someone and commending them for righteousness.
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Do you really not understand the difference between being judged in unbelief, and being commended and receiving reward for our faithfulness to God? The reward is for things done unknowingly, simply seeing a need and fulfilling the need from the heart no matter the cost to us. Far different from the goats who shall be judged for giving no thought whatsoever to the patiently obvious needs of the least of them among us.
First, I never said only unbelievers shall stand before the GWT! The book of life is the record of all who shall be saved. Before checking the book of life for names of the DEAD, the DEAD are first judged according to what is found written in the book(S), which is a record of all the DEAD have done, or left undone throughout their mortal lives.
Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
But, just as Matthew shows us, as the DEAD (goats) are judged, the living (faithful believers) who are there already clothed with immortal and incorruptible body are NOT judged according to what is found written in the book(S). Since all of the names of the living faithful saints are written in the Lamb's book of life, instead of being judged and condemned, they are commended by God for their love and faithfulness and are rewarded with immortal, everlasting life with Christ upon the new earth. NO JUDGMENT AT THE GWT FOR BELIEVERS!
At the GWTJ the DEAD receive a judgment of condemnation, and the faithful receive the reward promised us from the moment we have been born again. Judgment that merits rewards come in this life through deeds done in the body. Judgment at the GWT is not to receive reward(s), it is unto condemnation in the lake of fire that is the second death. That's why only the DEAD are judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.
Are you really so obtuse that you don't understand those blessed of the Father stand before Him to receive their REWARD, and not to be judged?
"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
No! They receive the reward promised (Kingdom) them because having been eternally saved they are the blessed of God. The works they do in the body are not the means for believers to receive the promised reward. Believers treat the least of these with compassion and love not to receive the REWARD, but because they have been born again, and the good they do comes according to faith through the power of the Holy Spirit in them.
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Paul teaches believers are judged according to their deeds in the body, in this life at the judgment seat of Christ which we, who have been born again stand before always since we have been born again.
We are not judged righteous by our works, we are judged righteous through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
Philippians 3:9 (KJV) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
The only reason I reply to your posts at all is NOT for you, because I believe arrogance, pride and a lack of love for fellow Christians prevents you from receiving anything that goes against what you have been taught. I reply to some of your posts for the benefit of others. I don't want your doctrinal errors to cause others to stumble.
"""How do you define Gospel?
Exactly how Christ through Paul teaches it.
--
Gal 1:-
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:-
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
1 Cor 15:-
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation
Knowing how the gospel is taught by Paul and all of Christ's disciples from the Word of God is not knowing what the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ means for you and me and all who are called to be disciples of Christ!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. That's what I have indicated repeatedly.
Yes, it does. Here is what Paul wrote there...
Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Notice that Paul references Old Testament scripture in verse 11. In order to fully understand what Paul is talking about, we should see what is written in that scripture, don't you think? Here is what it says...
Isaiah 45:22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, ‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.
Can you see here that those who will be bowing down to Christ when He is on His judgment seat include those "who are incensed against Him"? This shows that Paul was including unbelievers among those who will be bowing before Jesus on His judgment seat and giving an account of themselves. That's exactly what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
The Greek word translated as "seat" in the verses that refer to the judgment seat of Christ is bema (Strong's G968) and it is used in this verse...
Acts 12:21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne (bema - G968) and made an oration unto them.
This shows that a judgment seat and throne can be the same thing. A judgment seat is simply a seat that a judge sits on. There's no reason to think that a judgment seat can't also be a throne.
Scripture repeatedly refers to "the day of judgment", which implies one judgment event of all people. And that is how it is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. There's just no basis for thinking that there are separate judgment events, as all Premils believe and as very, very few Amils believe (I'm actually not aware of any other Amil who sees this as you do).
Yes, I fully understand that and have said nothing to indicate otherwise.
Of course. Again, I have said nothing to indicate otherwise. You often imagine me saying things that I'm not saying at all.
You were coming across that way. You just have no idea how unclear you are at times and how you come across as contradicting yourself at times.
There's no condemnation at the GWT for believers, but they will bow down to Christ at that time and give an account of themselves in relation to how they treated the least of these, just as is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.
Are you really so obtuse to think that I've ever said that any believer will be judged, in the sense of being condemned, rather than being rewarded? Are you really so obtuse as to not see that scripture says believers will be judged according to what we have done, whether good or bad, with a reward being received for the good and loss of reward (but not punishment or condemnation) for the bad?
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
That is not what I'm saying. What the works represent is not the means by which we receive the reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God (we're not saved by works), but rather they reflect the kind of faith that we have, which is such that it indicates that we have surrendered ourselves to Christ and submitted to Him as our personal Lord and Savior, as evidenced by the works that were done that God prepares for those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10). The good works that God prepares for those who become saved by grace through faith are described by Jesus as those things that are done to help the least of these (give them food, clothing, shelter, drink, etc.).
Right. For you to think I believe otherwise shows that you make no effort to understand what I actually believe and you end up wasting a great deal of time making strawman arguments as a result.
Your own level of arrogance and pride is off the charts. You are completely unteachable because of your pride. You believe in a great deal of false doctrine and you have been corrected with the truth regarding those false doctrines, but you are too arrogant and prideful to acknowledge it.
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