What is the purpose of Grace?

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The Gospel of Christ

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I am probably on ignore by @The Gospel of Christ so he doesn't see my posts such as the one on Matt 25 asking him if Matt 25 ALSO already happened since it is clearly connected to Matt 24. No answer.

Secondly in another thread I have asked to explain the below -

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No answer also.

He needs to address these 2 issues else his teaching doesn't add up.


Those are fair questions. But neither verse makes “this generation” disappear.

Matthew 24:29–31 uses classic prophetic judgment language, darkened sun, falling stars, shaken heavens; the same kind of imagery Isaiah and Ezekiel use for the collapse of nations. So simply quoting those verses doesn't prove Jesus suddenly jumped 2,000 years into the future at all.

And yes, Matthew 25 follows Matthew 24. We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.

But first answer the question you keep stepping around:

Where does Jesus say “this generation” means some other generation thousands of years later?

Not your system.
Not your chart.
Not your inference.

Book. Chapter. Verse.
 

Lizbeth

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I think this clarification helps, because I agree with much of what you are describing when it comes to consecration. A believer should increasingly surrender every area of life to the Lord rather than holding parts of it back. That is certainly biblical.

But I still think we need to distinguish that ongoing growth from what 2 Peter 1:10-11 actually calls the “entrance.”

Peter is already writing to people who “have obtained like precious faith with us” ~2 Peter 1:1, and he says they have been made “partakers of the divine nature” ~2 Peter 1:4. He then tells these believers to diligently add virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity to their faith.

Then comes verse 11: “For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” ~2 Peter 1:11

I don't see anything there saying that this entrance is a deeper spiritual condition believers may enter during this present life. Peter calls it entrance into the “everlasting kingdom.” The growth and diligence are taking place now. The entrance into that everlasting kingdom is what lies ahead.

Think of a child being born into a family. The child does not become more and more part of the family as he grows. He is already in the family. But over time he matures, learns obedience, develops character, and grows into what he already is. That is much closer to the biblical picture of the Christian life. We are already “in Christ,” but we are still growing in grace and obedience.

Another illustration is entering a race. Once the runner has entered the race, he is in it. He still has to run, endure, and finish. His progress through the race is real, but he is not repeatedly entering the race at deeper levels. Scripture says, “let us run with patience the race that is set before us” ~Hebrews 12:1. Growth and perseverance happen after the entrance.

So yes, there is an ongoing process in the Christian life. We grow, yield, obey, repent, mature, and become increasingly fruitful. I am completely with you there.

Where I still have to draw the line is when that biblical process of sanctification is described as the Lord finally “taking full possession” of someone, or as presently entering something beyond what every believer already possesses in Christ. I still need to see Scripture actually say that before I can accept it.
I think of it that as the bible says, we ARE complete in Him, because our new man is complete in Him, having been "made in the image of He who created it".......but it is a question of how much of Christ and the new man are we actually manifesting? and how much are we still living through (manifesting) our old man? Where it says we must "lose" our life (psuche) for His sake in order to find it, it is talking about losing the life we live through our old man in order to "find" resurrection life by living through (manifesting) the new man and Christ in us.

I hope these may be helpful:

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Heb 12:10-11
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


Rom 8:18-19
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Gal 2:20
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

But I believe it is like Paul said...he was of the mind that he had not yet attained so long as he was alive and still running his race in this world and instructs others who are "perfect" to be of that same mind as he was (humility), of not counting themselves to be perfect and having already attained but continuing to run the race and reaching for what is still ahead:

Phl 3:7-16

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
 

ProDeo

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Those are fair questions. But neither verse makes “this generation” disappear.

Matthew 24:29–31 uses classic prophetic judgment language, darkened sun, falling stars, shaken heavens; the same kind of imagery Isaiah and Ezekiel use for the collapse of nations. So simply quoting those verses doesn't prove Jesus suddenly jumped 2,000 years into the future at all.

And yes, Matthew 25 follows Matthew 24. We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.

My friend, this does not work that way, you can not push the doctrine that everything already happened in Matt 24 and 25 and then ignoring, willingly push aside, the 2 mentioned obstacles.

You are a well versed smart guy and I think you were aware of the 2 mentioned obstacles before you started this thread. And so I ask myself, why are you doing this? To discredit the Bible?
 
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The Gospel of Christ

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My friend, this does not work that way, you can not push the doctrine that everything already happened in Matt 24 and 25 and then ignoring, willingly push aside, the 2 mentioned obstacles.

You are a well versed smart guy and I think you were aware of the 2 mentioned obstacles before you started this thread. And so I ask myself, why are you doing this? To discredit the Bible?


No, thats not what I said at all.

I did not say everything in Matthew 24 and 25 already happened.

In the very post you quoted, I said:

“We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.”

So please don’t manufacture a position for me and then accuse me of “pushing aside” objections to that manufactured position.

Matthew 24:29–31 is not being ignored either... I answered it: Jesus is using the same cosmic judgment language the prophets repeatedly used for historical judgments on nations.

And Matthew 25:31–46? I take that as final judgment.

None of that changes Jesus’ words:

“This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Your problem remains exactly where it was:

Where does Jesus identify some other generation thousands of years later and tell us that's the generation He meant?

And asking whether Im trying to “discredit the Bible” doesn't answer that question. Quite the opposite I’m asking you to let Jesus’ own words control the doctrine instead of forcing His words to fit a doctrine.

Book. Chapter. Verse.


Also, if your interpretation requires Jesus to mean a generation He never named, living thousands of years later, then the burden is on you to show where He said that.


You don’t get to insert the missing generation yourself and then accuse me of discrediting Scripture for refusing to insert it with you.


BTW I answered you just now in Unorthodox where this discussion belongs. When Doctrine Corrects Christ

Apparently, discussing this subject outside Unorthodox can get entire threads deleted.
 
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Lizbeth

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No, thats not what I said at all.

I did not say everything in Matthew 24 and 25 already happened.

In the very post you quoted, I said:

“We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.”

So please don’t manufacture a position for me and then accuse me of “pushing aside” objections to that manufactured position.

Matthew 24:29–31 is not being ignored either... I answered it: Jesus is using the same cosmic judgment language the prophets repeatedly used for historical judgments on nations.

And Matthew 25:31–46? I take that as final judgment.

None of that changes Jesus’ words:

“This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Your problem remains exactly where it was:

Where does Jesus identify some other generation thousands of years later and tell us that's the generation He meant?

And asking whether Im trying to “discredit the Bible” doesn't answer that question. Quite the opposite I’m asking you to let Jesus’ own words control the doctrine instead of forcing His words to fit a doctrine.

Book. Chapter. Verse.


Also, if your interpretation requires Jesus to mean a generation He never named, living thousands of years later, then the burden is on you to show where He said that.


You don’t get to insert the missing generation yourself and then accuse me of discrediting Scripture for refusing to insert it with you.


BTW I answered you just now in Unorthodox where this discussion belongs. When Doctrine Corrects Christ

Apparently, discussing this subject outside Unorthodox can get entire threads deleted.
I believe Jesus was prophesying to the Jew first, then the Gentile. But this whole topic doesn't belong on this thread.