Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

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TribulationSigns

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1,000 represents a large number, in today's world the word used would be Billion years

The scripture below shows the interpretation, is it one literal day or a thousand literal years?

It's "Neither", its showing the human man that God is outside of time, it's that simple

2 Peter 3:8KJ
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Your claims are 100% "Wrong" Revelation 1:20 and "Seven Candlesticks" has absolutely no association with Revelation 11:3-4 "None"
Just as post #109 above shows, your magic wand and bag of tricks are empty, "exposed"

You continue to deny the "Fact" that Revelation 11:3-18 teaches that the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die, and these bodies are raised from the dead as a literal world watches, your trying to sell ice in the North Pole in the middle of winter and it ain't working

You need to look into the mirror and follow your own advice, Zechariah 4:11-14 gives the interpretation for the word "Candlestick(s)" and it clearly states the interpretation as being (The Two Anointed Ones) that are also seen in Revelation Chapter 11 as having literal physical bodies that die and these dead bodies are raised from the dead and ascend to heave in the sight of a literal world watching, your private interpretation on it being the "Church" is Laughable, Non-Existent, and that's being honestly nice

Jesus Is The Lord

(yawning). Here you go again.

You keep declaring yourself victorious while STILL refusing to reconcile the very Scriptures placed before you. Repeating “laughable,” “exposed,” and “100% wrong” is rhetoric—not exegesis.

First, 2 Peter 3:8 does not prove that the thousand years of Revelation 20 must be 1,000 literal calendar years. In fact, your appeal to that verse undermines your own rigid literalism:

“One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

Peter's point is obviously not a mathematical conversion formula. It demonstrates that biblical numerical language must be understood according to its context and purpose. So merely seeing the number “1,000” does not settle whether Revelation 20 intends a literal chronological measurement.

Second, your claim that Revelation 1:20 has “absolutely no association” with Revelation 11:4 is astonishing. It is the SAME BOOK using the SAME SYMBOL!

Revelation 1:20:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.”

Revelation 11:4:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

You cannot simply wave Revelation 1:20 away because it causes problems for your interpretation. God has already demonstrated within Revelation that a candlestick can represent a corporate church. That fact does not disappear when you reach chapter 11.

And Zechariah 4 does not rescue you. Zechariah calls them “the two anointed ones.” It does NOT say, “These are two individual supernatural men who will appear thousands of years from now during a future tribulation.” You are importing that conclusion into the text and then calling it the text's “interpretation.”

Likewise, saying the witnesses have “bodies,” “die,” “stand,” and “ascend” does not automatically establish your literal interpretation. Revelation repeatedly portrays corporate spiritual realities through individual, physical, and visible imagery. Babylon is portrayed as a woman. The Church is portrayed as a bride. Churches are candlesticks. Satan is a dragon. Nobody concludes that Babylon must therefore be one literal woman or Satan a zoological reptile because they perform actions in John's vision.

That is precisely why Revelation must be interpreted by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not by mechanically declaring every action literal whenever it suits your prophetic system.

So before announcing that my “bag of tricks is empty,” deal honestly with the text YOU continually avoid:

Why does God explicitly define candlesticks as churches in Revelation 1:20, and why should that inspired definition suddenly become irrelevant when John sees candlesticks again in Revelation 11:4?

Answer the question! Until you actually answer that question rather than dismissing it, you have not refuted the Church interpretation at all, so you are still in an ERROR!

Let Scripture interpret Scripture. Selah!
 

JimKnox

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Nice diversion, but it does not rescue your argument.

Yes, I knew that you are midtrib. Fine. But you are still operating within a premillennial framework, which is exactly what I was addressing. Whether you place the rapture before, during, or at the end of the tribulation does absolutely NOTHING to answer my argument concerning the symbolic thousand years or the Two Witnesses.

Instead of answering Psalm 50:10, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 11:4, or explaining why repetition supposedly makes a symbolic number literal, you grabbed onto one mistaken label and declared me “intellectually dishonest.”

That is an escape, not a refutation.

Correct the label to midtrib premillennialist and my biblical argument remains standing exactly where I left it.

If you think I am wrong, refute the Scriptures and reasoning I presented. Don't hide behind a label and pretend you answered the argument.

You haven't. :laughing:
Well then CALL IT premil instead of pretrib.
Do you wish to be understood or are you flapping in the wind just to be ignored?

Stop lying. I never PRETENDED anything.

Your argument is so ridiculous as to deserve mockery but certainly not intellectual discourse.



I have watched you here long enough to know that all you care about is hearing yourself flap self righteous pablum. Plenty of people (including myself) have answered you and you ignore the answer and repeat your mythological symbolism for terms that are clearly literal.

At a certain point, people get tired of you.
 

TribulationSigns

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Well then CALL IT premil instead of pretrib.
Do you wish to be understood or are you flapping in the wind just to be ignored?

Stop lying. I never PRETENDED anything.

Your argument is so ridiculous as to deserve mockery but certainly not intellectual discourse.



I have watched you here long enough to know that all you care about is hearing yourself flap self righteous pablum. Plenty of people (including myself) have answered you and you ignore the answer and repeat your mythological symbolism for terms that are clearly literal.

At a certain point, people get tired of you.

LOL! You can mock me, accuse me of “flapping,” call my interpretation ridiculous, and complain that people are tired of me—but none of that refutes a single biblical argument I have made! So you really distracting biblical discussion by attacking me. LOL.

You accuse me of repeating “mythological symbolism,” yet you still have not demonstrated from Scripture why my interpretation is wrong. Personal attacks are not exegesis. Mockery is not a biblical rebuttal. Saying something is “clearly literal” over and over does not make it so. Get this through your thick skull first!

If my interpretation is wrong, then open the Bible and prove it. Deal with the actual texts, their context, their Old Testament foundations, and the symbolic language Revelation itself establishes. Show from Scripture why my arguments fail instead of attacking my character and motives.

You also accuse me of lying and pretending things without demonstrating either accusation. That is serious. If I lied, quote the exact statement that was false and provide the evidence. Otherwise, withdraw the accusation.

And regarding “pretrib” versus “premil”: terminology can be clarified easily. Pretribulationism normally exists within a premillennial framework, but the two terms describe different things: “pretrib” concerns the timing of the rapture relative to the tribulation, while “premil” concerns Christ’s return relative to the millennium. Correcting terminology is fine. Turning that correction into personal ridicule contributes nothing to the biblical discussion. Poor you!

You say you have watched me long enough to know what I “care about.” You do not know my heart. Deal with what I actually write rather than assigning motives to me. :-)

A serious Bible student should be willing to test an interpretation by Scripture, even when he strongly disagrees with it. “I disagree,” “it is obviously literal,” and “people are tired of you” are not arguments.

So put the insults aside and make the biblical case. Chapter and verse. Context and exegesis. Address my actual arguments rather than my personality.

If you cannot do that, then all this mockery demonstrates is that you have plenty to say about me but very little to say in refutation of the biblical position I presented. hlo
 

JimKnox

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LOL! You can mock me, accuse me of “flapping,” call my interpretation ridiculous, and complain that people are tired of me—but none of that refutes a single biblical argument I have made! So you really distracting biblical discussion by attacking me. LOL.

You accuse me of repeating “mythological symbolism,” yet you still have not demonstrated from Scripture why my interpretation is wrong. Personal attacks are not exegesis. Mockery is not a biblical rebuttal. Saying something is “clearly literal” over and over does not make it so. Get this through your thick skull first!

If my interpretation is wrong, then open the Bible and prove it. Deal with the actual texts, their context, their Old Testament foundations, and the symbolic language Revelation itself establishes. Show from Scripture why my arguments fail instead of attacking my character and motives.

You also accuse me of lying and pretending things without demonstrating either accusation. That is serious. If I lied, quote the exact statement that was false and provide the evidence. Otherwise, withdraw the accusation.

And regarding “pretrib” versus “premil”: terminology can be clarified easily. Pretribulationism normally exists within a premillennial framework, but the two terms describe different things: “pretrib” concerns the timing of the rapture relative to the tribulation, while “premil” concerns Christ’s return relative to the millennium. Correcting terminology is fine. Turning that correction into personal ridicule contributes nothing to the biblical discussion. Poor you!

You say you have watched me long enough to know what I “care about.” You do not know my heart. Deal with what I actually write rather than assigning motives to me. :-)

A serious Bible student should be willing to test an interpretation by Scripture, even when he strongly disagrees with it. “I disagree,” “it is obviously literal,” and “people are tired of you” are not arguments.

So put the insults aside and make the biblical case. Chapter and verse. Context and exegesis. Address my actual arguments rather than my personality.

If you cannot do that, then all this mockery demonstrates is that you have plenty to say about me but very little to say in refutation of the biblical position I presented. hlo
I bet you thought I was gonna READ all that, huh?
 

Truth7t7

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(yawning). Here you go again.

You keep declaring yourself victorious while STILL refusing to reconcile the very Scriptures placed before you. Repeating “laughable,” “exposed,” and “100% wrong” is rhetoric—not exegesis.

First, 2 Peter 3:8 does not prove that the thousand years of Revelation 20 must be 1,000 literal calendar years. In fact, your appeal to that verse undermines your own rigid literalism:

“One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

Peter's point is obviously not a mathematical conversion formula. It demonstrates that biblical numerical language must be understood according to its context and purpose. So merely seeing the number “1,000” does not settle whether Revelation 20 intends a literal chronological measurement.
Your assumptions and claims are "false again", I don't believe in nor do I teach of a future 1,000 year kingdom on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire (The End)
Second, your claim that Revelation 1:20 has “absolutely no association” with Revelation 11:4 is astonishing. It is the SAME BOOK using the SAME SYMBOL!

Revelation 1:20:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.”

Revelation 11:4:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

You cannot simply wave Revelation 1:20 away because it causes problems for your interpretation. God has already demonstrated within Revelation that a candlestick can represent a corporate church. That fact does not disappear when you reach chapter 11.

And Zechariah 4 does not rescue you. Zechariah calls them “the two anointed ones.” It does NOT say, “These are two individual supernatural men who will appear thousands of years from now during a future tribulation.” You are importing that conclusion into the text and then calling it the text's “interpretation.”
Once Again, Revelation 1:20 and the word "Candlestick(s) has absolutely no association to Rev 11:3-4 whatsoever "None"

Once Again Zechariah 4:11-14 interprets the olive trees and candlestick and the symbolism represents (The Two Annointed Ones) who are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, "Yes" scripture interprets itself, and it's not your "False Claim" of this being the Church, that's Baloney, Malarkey, and "Laughable" "A Joke"!
Likewise, saying the witnesses have “bodies,” “die,” “stand,” and “ascend” does not automatically establish your literal interpretation.
Once Again, Yes it does show a literal interpretation of the (Two Witnesses) that have bodies that die, bodies that a literal world will watch dead in a literal Jerusalem street, bodies that will be raised from the dead and stand upon physical feet, bodies that will ascend to heaven as literal human eyes on earth watch

You take all the detailed description of the (Two Witnesses) in Rev Chap 11 and desperately try to claim it represents the "Church" that's Baloney, Malarkey, and "Laughable" "A Joke"!
So before announcing that my “bag of tricks is empty,” deal honestly with the text YOU continually avoid:
Once Again your magic wand and bag of tricks are empty "Exposed"

Once Again, the Candlesticks mentioned in Rev 11:3-4 have absolutely no association to Rev 1:20 as you "Falsely Claim" "None", as is clearly described above

I haven't avoided any text as you falsely claim, your magic wand and bag of tricks is empty, totally exposed

Why does God explicitly define candlesticks as churches in Revelation 1:20, and why should that inspired definition suddenly become irrelevant when John sees candlesticks again in Revelation 11:4?
Don't play Dumb, you have been answered "Several Times" showing that the symbols of the olive trees and candlestick(s) has been clearly interpreted by scripture itself in context in Zechariah 4:11-14 as (The Two Annointed Ones) who are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11

You run about claiming that it represents the Church, giving complete disregard to Zechariah 4:11-14 as if it doesn't exist, that's how far one will go in desperately trying to prop up a false interpretation to suit one's own needs
Let Scripture interpret Scripture.
Follow your own advice, look in the mirror

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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TribulationSigns

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You would lose the bet, pal.

Childish game. “You would lose the bet, pal” proves absolutely nothing. Nobody here can verify what you have or have not read, and frankly, that is no longer the issue.

The issue is that after all these exchanges, you still have not produced a serious biblical refutation of the position I presented. Instead of dealing carefully with Scripture, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and demonstrating where my interpretation actually fails, you keep retreating into sarcasm, personal remarks, and games about who read what.

I'm interested in biblical discussion, not an ego contest.

If you could refute my position from Scripture, you had every opportunity to do so. You chose not to engage it substantively.

So I'm finished wasting time on this sideshow. You're being kicked into my dungeon of ignore list. Others can read the arguments and examine the Scriptures for themselves.

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” — 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Selah and Goodbye Jimmy.

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TribulationSigns

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Your assumptions and claims are "false again", I don't believe in nor do I teach of a future 1,000 year kingdom on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Once Again, Revelation 1:20 and the word "Candlestick(s) has absolutely no association to Rev 11:3-4 whatsoever "None"

Enough. You keep repeating the same assertions, insults, and capitalized words as though repetition somehow constitutes exegesis. It does not.

I do not care whether you believe in a future earthly 1,000-year kingdom or not because you got the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20 all wrong to begin with anyway. This has nothing to do with the argument presently before us.

Your fundamental error remains untouched.

You repeatedly quote Zechariah 4:14:

“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

And then you simply ASSERT:

“Therefore these must be two individual supernatural men living during a future period.”

Where does Zechariah 4:14 say that? NOWHERE!! It is coming from your carnal mind.

“Two anointed ones” is the inspired identification given in Zechariah's vision. Your conclusion that this requires two future individual men is your interpretation—not something Zechariah 4:14 actually states.

And your insistence that Revelation 1:20 has “absolutely no association” with Revelation 11:4 is particularly revealing.

God says:

“The seven "candlesticks" which thou sawest "ARE" the seven "churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Then the SAME inspired book says:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two "candlesticks" standing before the God of the earth.” — Revelation 11:4

Yet you demand that everyone pretend God's previously established use of the candlestick symbol for churches becomes completely irrelevant seven chapters later. Bad move on your part!

That isn't comparing Scripture with Scripture. That's isolating the verse from an inconvenient biblical precedent because it conflicts with your interpretation.

And repeatedly shouting “literal bodies,” “literal Jerusalem,” “literal world,” “physical feet,” “literal human eyes” doesn't prove those things are literal. You are merely inserting the word LITERAL before every element of an apocalyptic vision and then presenting your assumption as proof of itself.

Revelation personifies and depicts corporate realities as individual actors throughout the book. Therefore, describing the witnesses as acting, dying, standing, and ascending does not by itself settle whether John intends two individual persons or a corporate reality represented through two witnesses.

That is the actual exegetical question—and you have never demonstrated your conclusion. You have simply repeated it.

So keep the “Baloney,” “Malarkey,” “Laughable,” “magic wand,” “bag of tricks,” and “Exposed” routine. None of those words constitute biblical evidence.

We've gone around this circle enough. Anyone reading this discussion can compare Zechariah 4, Revelation 1:20, and Revelation 11 and decide which interpretation actually allows Scripture to interpret Scripture.

I'm interested in biblical exegesis, not endless repetition and ridicule. Therefore, I'm also putting you on ignore and moving on.

Let the Scriptures stand.

Selah. And Goodbye!


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Truth7t7

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Enough. You keep repeating the same assertions, insults, and capitalized words as though repetition somehow constitutes exegesis. It does not.

I do not care whether you believe in a future earthly 1,000-year kingdom or not because you got the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20 all wrong to begin with anyway. This has nothing to do with the argument presently before us.

Your fundamental error remains untouched.

You repeatedly quote Zechariah 4:14:

“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

And then you simply ASSERT:

“Therefore these must be two individual supernatural men living during a future period.”

Where does Zechariah 4:14 say that? NOWHERE!! It is coming from your carnal mind.

“Two anointed ones” is the inspired identification given in Zechariah's vision. Your conclusion that this requires two future individual men is your interpretation—not something Zechariah 4:14 actually states.

And your insistence that Revelation 1:20 has “absolutely no association” with Revelation 11:4 is particularly revealing.

God says:

“The seven "candlesticks" which thou sawest "ARE" the seven "churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Then the SAME inspired book says:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two "candlesticks" standing before the God of the earth.” — Revelation 11:4

Yet you demand that everyone pretend God's previously established use of the candlestick symbol for churches becomes completely irrelevant seven chapters later. Bad move on your part!

That isn't comparing Scripture with Scripture. That's isolating the verse from an inconvenient biblical precedent because it conflicts with your interpretation.

And repeatedly shouting “literal bodies,” “literal Jerusalem,” “literal world,” “physical feet,” “literal human eyes” doesn't prove those things are literal. You are merely inserting the word LITERAL before every element of an apocalyptic vision and then presenting your assumption as proof of itself.

Revelation personifies and depicts corporate realities as individual actors throughout the book. Therefore, describing the witnesses as acting, dying, standing, and ascending does not by itself settle whether John intends two individual persons or a corporate reality represented through two witnesses.

That is the actual exegetical question—and you have never demonstrated your conclusion. You have simply repeated it.

So keep the “Baloney,” “Malarkey,” “Laughable,” “magic wand,” “bag of tricks,” and “Exposed” routine. None of those words constitute biblical evidence.

We've gone around this circle enough. Anyone reading this discussion can compare Zechariah 4, Revelation 1:20, and Revelation 11 and decide which interpretation actually allows Scripture to interpret Scripture.

I'm interested in biblical exegesis, not endless repetition and ridicule. Therefore, I'm also putting you on ignore and moving on.

Let the Scriptures stand.

Selah. And Goodbye!
(The Future Two Witnesses, And Biblical Truth)

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are (The Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching (Future, Literal)

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as posters "Falsely" suggest, the events seen in Revelation Chapter 11 are (Future Unfulfilled)

Future Fulfillment: The (Two Witnesses) will prophesy for 1260 literal days bringing all plagues upon this wicked world at their will, they will be killed and lay dead in a literal Jerusalem street for 3.5 literal days as a wicked world watches in celebration of their deaths exchanging gifts, they will be raised from the dead standing on their feet and they will ascend into heaven as the literal world watches, the same hour there will be a great earth quake in Jerusalem, the 2nd woe is complete and the 3rd woe comes quickly in the 7th Angel-Trump sounding (The End) Final Judgement Seen in Rev 11:18 (The End)

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-18KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill t
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 
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