o. John 14:2-3
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o. Revelation 11:12
o. Revelation 14:16
It occurs at the seventh trumpet.
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Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.
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o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o. Revelation 11:12
o. Revelation 14:16
It occurs at the seventh trumpet.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I got a kick out of looking up "took" in the Greek.
It is mostly used in a good sense.
One definition is, "to weigh anchor"
...hilarious.
Also in the "one taken" wording.( of mt 24)
When you look it up, in the greek, ("taken" ), it is almost always "to a good place"
Oooops.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
It is taught by Jesus, as pretrib, 4 or 5 times with no trumpet mentioned.
I am Not saying there will not be one at the rapture,. If you look at Revelation ch one, his voice is as "a trumpet."
So, if you are limiting a trumpet to limited verses you think are exclusive, the picture starts to blurr.
1 Cor 15:52....in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
It seems to be a form of speculation when the last trumpet...seventh...trumpet is sounded that the rapture will occur then.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Feast of trumpets has the last trumpet blown every year in the fall.
Not saying the rapture is in the fall, but most everyone is oblivious to Gods clock and markers.
That look at the feasts as indirect.
Heaven sees them as direct.
IOW, If you look at the sacrifice of the ot temple and the duties of the priests, what they did in the animal sacrifice, pointed FORWARD to JESUS.
The feasts are THE SAME DYNAMIC.
They all point forward to prophetic events.
So we will not see end times events unconnected to the feasts.
They will be connected.
So, it is up to us to pay attention.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Looks like you are using the "Reply" feature incorrectly (putting your own comments in the quote box, instead of showing the quote you are replying to).
Anyway, good...when the rapture (so called)/7th trump is, is commonly mistaken.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The seals are opened at the AC arrival.
The judgements of the 4 horsemen come from heaven.
Pretrib rapture...then all hell breaks loose including the extermination of anyone refusing the mark.
Pretrib rapture first.
Seals judgements follow immediately.
It is. And, regarding the "rapture" itself, foisted upon the text without warrant. In order:
John 14:2-3 "In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
God is Spirit, as John says in John 4:24. The Father does not have a physical body as we do, so He does not live in a literal house, of course... <chuckles> Although at least a somewhat legitimate inference... the idea here is not that Jesus was going to heaven to "get things ready in some physical place... or even in heaven... for His disciples’ (and by extension, our) arrival." Instead, the emphasis is on the fact that Jesus would be preparing a place for the disciples (and by extension, us) in His passion. In His death and resurrection, He would be opening up the way for His disciples (and by extension, us) to be citizens of the kingdom and inherit eternal life in God’s blessed presence. This can easily be seen in what Jesus says really in the same breath: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Again, Jesus is saying that by His death and resurrection, He would be opening up the way of salvation. So, as we would all agree, I hope, Jesus’ return to glory along the path that went through the cross, into the tomb, risen on the third day, and on high in the ascension guarantees salvation for His people. And this is in keeping with the very purpose that John wrote his gospel, "...that (we) may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing (we) may have life in His name. There is no "rapture" to be seen here...
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."
No mention of anyone being taken anywhere, but changed. Among other things... <smile> ...our physical body will then no longer be perishable but imperishable; we will truly have eternal life. So... no "rapture" here, either...
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
No mention of anyone being taken anywhere, here, either. Those... maybe we, if we are still alive when the Lord comes... will go out to meet Him in His return, and "escort" Him to earth in His return, just as occurs throughout the Bible when royalty returns... most notably on Palm Sunday, when Jesus, a few days before His crucifixion and resurrection, made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. His "loyal subjects" welcomed Him into the city, escorting Him in. As Zechariah had prophesied centuries before, foretelling the deliverance of Jerusalem and the coming of a just ruler Who brings salvation and peace: "...behold, your King comes to you; he is righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey..." So it will be when He returns, but in the ultimate sense... He will not come in humility but in glorious, final, complete triumph, which is what the image given to John in his vision in Revelation 19 (His returning on a white horse) conveys. We don't "go" anywhere; Jesus comes to us. and He will bring, in it's final, ultimate, complete, and unending ~ eternal ~ form, salvation and peace. So, again... <smile> ...no "rapture" here, either.
Revelation 11:12 "Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them."
The two witnesses, who are being spoken to, here, yes ~ are churches... The two witnesses are two lampstands (11:4), indicating that they are symbolic figures standing for the witness of the lampstand-churches of Revelation 1:20. Thus they symbolize churches rather than specific human individuals. Two rather than seven lampstands are mentioned to imitate the pattern of Zechariah 4 and of Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17:3-4; cf. Deut. 17:6; Luke 10:1). In John's imagery (key word), here... in this vision given to him... we "see," with John, the triumph of righteousness and truth over evil and adversity. This passage speaks to the idea that no matter how daunting the challenges or fierce the opposition, those who stand for what is just and good will ultimately be lifted up and vindicated. This is about life on earth as we experience it. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, God has "made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised... up with Him and seated... with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." We will not "go up to heaven in a cloud" in any woodenly literal sense. This is an allusion, actually, to Jesus's ascension to heaven in Acts 1, and now, even in this life, we who are born again have been ~ because God has called us ~ raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places. So, again... <smile> ...no "rapture" here, either.
Revelation 14:16 "So He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped."
"Reaped," yes, but not "removed," or taken anywhere... This should be understood in the same way as Jesus's parable in Mark 4:26-29... "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground. He sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows; he knows not how. The earth produces by itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." All Christians, all those in Christ, are the grain here. So, in the same way as separating the wheat (we are the wheat) from the chaff (Matthew 3:12), the wheat (again, we are the wheat) from the tares (Matthew 13:40), the sheep (we are the sheep) from the goats (Matthew 25:32-33)... and Revelation 20:11-12, when we all stand before Christ in the final judgment. No one is taken anywhere, but all are gathered... and separated, many to Jesus's right and the others to His left... "all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29)... and then separated. When He returns, Jesus will do the separating. And as I've said, the only ones actually leaving will be ~ after the final judgment is rendered ~ those on His left, who have done evil, who will have been resurrected to the resurrection of judgment, the unrepentant, unbelievers, the wicked. They will be the ones who will not be in the congregation of the righteous and will not stand in the judgment (Psalm 1) and will be subject to the second death (Revelation 20:14), and thus... depart into eternal punishment (Matthew 7:23; 25:41-46). <shudder> So, again... <smile> ...no "rapture" here, either.
So, for those thinking along the same lines as... well, a poster... above... <smile> Yeah, zero for five...
Grace and peace to all.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
The message from Christ, though it may not include a physical trip, does include a transference from where we are (in the world) to where He is (not in the world, but with the Father). Which is to say, no the kingdom is not beyond the stars or some other physical place, but "is within."
However, the experience means leaving time and entering eternity--not just beginning eternity at that time in the world where we are born again of God--but fully being no more in the world of time at all. Which, things like "in the twinkling of an eye" and "changed", or the full effect of passing "from death to life"...are rightfully called rapturous.
As for the 5 passages you mentioned--well enough. But I would add the rapturous experience of:
Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Matthew 24:40-41
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.
This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Preterist, Pretribulationist or Historist positions.
The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!
Hmmmm. There is no... trip... <smile> Except maybe to where the final judgment takes place, which, like you say is certainly not "beyond the stars"... it will be somewhere on this planet. Jerusalem? The Mount of Olives? Maybe. I think not, though; it sure would be a whole bunch of people to put in one tiny place... <chuckles> I tend to think of it as a world-wide event. Anyway, I'm not sure if this includes you or not, but I'm not sure how some can read Acts 1, where we understand without question that He "will come in the same way as you..." (His disciples, of course) "...saw him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11) and somehow think otherwise, but so it is.
And I would say ~ and you may or may not agree, Scott ~ that God's Kingdom is a people; Jesus tells Pilate, before His crucifixion, as you know, that His Kingdom is "not of this world." I would say ~ and I think you would agree with this, Scott, but maybe not ~ that that little word 'of' is quite important, and to that point, in your quote above, I would change it slightly ~ or rather what may seem a slight change but really isn't ~ to "a FINAL... transference... OF WHAT we are TO WHAT He is, and thereby fully conformed to the image of Christ, (Romans 8:29), adopted to God as sons through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:5), which is what we are predestined for. Maybe when you say the Kingdom is "within" you and I are thinking along the same lines... or maybe only partially... but at face value that seems not to be the case.
Well... hmmmm again... <smile> So we are not yet born again and of God... even though we are told we are... have been... <scratching head...smile> ...as notably as anywhere else by Paul in Ephesians 2 and Peter in 1 Peter 1. Yeah, I disagree with you there. I do agree that we will no longer be in this age (this current age will have ended), that we will be in the age which still as of now is yet to come, eternity...
As for these things being rapturous, yes, but I would say that for each of us, it may not have felt like it... we may not even remember it, especially if it happened early enough in our life... but our being born again was for each of us very rapturous. Since then, we are His. And He ours. From "once slaves of sin" to now "obedient from the heart," and "set free from sin" and now "slaves of righteousness"... "slaves of God, the fruit (we) get lead(ing) to sanctification and its end, eternal life" (Romans 6)... yes, that's quite the radical, rapturous change.
Well, I wasn't the one who originally mentioned them. That was William Barton; I was addressing what he cited.
One more time: Hmmmm... As I and others have said, this is about the end of the age and the final judgment... its coming without warning and its suddenness is Jesus's context here.
Grace and peace to you, Scott.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, your mind is closed because you clearly are not willing to even consider anything but what you've probably been taught your whole life.
LOL! That's the question I should be asking you. You seem to have no understanding of it at all. Do you think it's no different than reading a straightforward, sequential news article? It's full of symbolism. If you read it all literally, you end up contradicting many other scriptures. Do you care if your understanding of Revelation lines up with the rest of scripture or not?
Have you ever taken the time to understand that Revelation is very symbolic and should not be taken as literally as you do? Jesus and Paul both made it very clear that people would generally be going about their daily lives while being clueless about the wrath that will come upon them when Jesus returns (Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). Jesus is only coming again from heaven once in the future and on that day the rapture will occur and He will take vengeance on His enemies. That is what is portrayed in Matthew 24:29-51, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. Your understanding of Revelation contradicts those passages and many more. Why don't you use more clear, straightforward passages to help you understand Revelation instead of taking Revelation so literally and causing it to contradict other scripture?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Too many. And you still won't accept the truth that you've been shown many times. Sad.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What Jesus was saying is that unbelievers will be totally clueless about the wrath that will come upon them when Jesus returns just like people were when the flood destroyed them in Noah's day. How can you think He was talking about a pre-trib rapture there rather than His post-trib return? Jesus said the elect will be gathered when He returns (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). That's when the rapture will occur as well. Post-trib. Jesus taught that plain as day and you're missing it.
Paul taught the same thing. People will be clueless about the wrath that will come upon them when Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night and they will be saying peace and safety as if they are safe from God's wrath instead of repenting of their sins. Do you think the following is talking about people saying "peace and safety" before a pre-trib rapture?
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have no understanding of what those you debate against believe. It's ridiculous. Post-tribs do not compare the trib with the flood of Noah's day. Many post-tribs, including me, compare the wrath and destruction that will occur when Jesus returns with the flood and we equate the trib with a time of increased deception, wickedness, apostasy and persecution.
Amils like myself believe that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns just as all unbeliever were killed in the flood. That's why Jesus specifically mentions that the flood "destroyed them all" and then says "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.".
So, try actually addressing what post-tribs believe instead of what your imaginary strawman post-trib believes.
I don't know how old you are, but you can't unpack anything in scripture. You know nothing. Read Luke 17:26-37 carefully and you should see that the ones taken are believers who will be taken up to meet Christ in the air and the ones left are all killed just like the ones left out of the ark in Noah's day were all killed and the ones left in Sodom after Lot and his family went out from there were all killed. You somehow have people surviving the time when some are taken and some are left, but Jesus did not say that at all. No one who is left on earth and not taken up to be with Christ will survive. Jesus indicated that those left will all be bird food (Luke 17:37), which lines up with Revelatinon 19:17-18. They will all suffer Christ's vengeance when He returns just as is taught in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's not what he said, either. Why are you resorting to misrepresenting what he said? It must be because you have no idea how to address what he actually said.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
As for a place of the Judgement, no certainly not a "Look here" location "in the desert...or the inner rooms." But not limited to all the Earth either--not worldwide at all--but all of Heaven and Earth.
As for "the same way you saw him go into heaven"--was it the way of this world, or the way of the Kingdom? Let there be no doubt--the Way, is not the way of this world as so many believe.
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