"Free" Will

Floyd · May 20, 2014

JoJo:

Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.

Floyd:

Why JoJo, are you afraid of your freewill?
I assume you are female, as this type of question is common to them.
Floyd.

JoJoRoss · May 20, 2014

satan and hell are defintely for real....

James 4:8

The closer you draw to Christ the closer He comes to you.

You don't come to know God without coming to know your advesary.

They go hand in hand.

When you give your life to Christ it's only then when you will learn how to battle this enemy.

Some say "I don't give satan the time of day" HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then that means he already has you where he wants you.

The great deciever is very good at what he does. There is no truth in him.

have any of you ever seen a demon?.............It really strengthens your faith towards Christ when you do....and.......no questions are ever asked again if there is a hell or not.
YOU KNOW FOR SURE THERE IS

People get so hung up in the scriptures..........they never venture out to see the things of God.....of course that's the last thing satan would want you to do.
Just stay confused in the scriptures................all wrapped up in them...................BUT.......satan says.....whatever you do.....don't ask God if what I've been taught is right.....that's a big no no in satans book.

Talk to God.......even it takes hours or days................you want to be right don't you?...you want to know for sure don't you?

people talk as if God is alive.......................then treat Him that way.

Invite Him over...................................That is if you're not afraid of one of the greatest parties you would have ever attended.

[SIZE=14pt]Randor,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Satan is for real, absolutely. I battle with the father of lies every day. I have studied “Hell” for many hours, days, weeks etc and I found out through the Holy Spirit that it is not true. I wanted to know if God is love, how could He send and torment His creation day and night for not believing Him in this age. I thought love never fails? I thought love your enemy? But that all goes out the window when the ungenerated sinner dies? Is God contradicting? See. This haunted me for a long time. I prayed to God every second I could for a long time searching if Eternal Hell was for real. It aint. Why? The Word of God. The Holy Spirit of God. Pray, seek. Find out if God is love. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]The words "everlasting" "evermore," "forever," "for ever AND EVER[?]," and "eternal" are nowhere found even once in any Hebrew or Greek manuscript from which our modern language bibles are translated. It is always translated as an age (beginning and end). I am sorry if you don’t hold scriptures as actual words from God on paper…I do...and God is who I am going to follow:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Col 1:19-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Love,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

So what did the Father look like?

[SIZE=14pt]Forsakenone,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]One verse for you:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1 Cor 2:14-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I assume you’re being sarcastic. The Father drags us spiritually to Him no physically. God is Spirit. We must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Floyd:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Why JoJo, are you afraid of your freewill?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I assume you are female, as this type of question is common to them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Haha not a female Floyd. And I never meet a female who didn’t think she had a free will

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I am not afraid of freewill? When the truth of no free will was revealed to me in scriptures, I was afraid for a longggg timmeee of not having a freewill. I honestly think it is the other way around. People are extremely afraid of not having a freewill. They think their robots and don’t have a say in anything. What they don’t understand is the human race can’t choose good and don’t seek God…NOT ONE (Romans 3:10-12). Believe me, I struggled with this A LONG TIMEEE. It took a lot of purging from God for me to see this truth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Floyd · May 20, 2014

[SIZE=14pt]Haha not a female Floyd. And I never meet a female who didn’t think she had a free will

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I am not afraid of freewill? When the truth of no free will was revealed to me in scriptures, I was afraid for a longggg timmeee of not having a freewill. I honestly think it is the other way around. People are extremely afraid of not having a freewill. They think their robots and don’t have a say in anything. What they don’t understand is the human race can’t choose good and don’t seek God…NOT ONE (Romans 3:10-12). Believe me, I struggled with this A LONG TIMEEE. It took a lot of purging from God for me to see this truth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]OK JoJo; I got that wrong; good comment on female freewill!!![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Regards, Floyd.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

StanJ · May 20, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
StanJ,

I do not ignore Romans 10:9-11. You IGNORE that when we choose God it is because he chooses us first:

You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16)
And…
No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44).

You say I am not “Laying out scripture without proper exegesis”. How? You think that Bible chapter in Romans 9 was showing us how God offers salvation? What?? How can you write this when Romans 9 plainly states:

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? GOD FORBID.

You are saying the way I am laying out these scriptures our without proper exegesis??? I am sorry but you are incorrect. The Word of God was for his creation past, present and future. No out of context here sir. You are saying there is unrighteousness with God. GOD FORBID!

Give me one verse that says we are RESPONSIBLE to God. One verse. They all say to give an account. BIG DIFFERENCE.

You think we can still choose good without God do you? But it is not I but sin that dwelleth in me?:

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [ it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sin rules without the Holy Spirit inside you. AND still with the Holy Spirit inside you we still struggle with our sin. WRECTHED MAN I AM! The creature was made subject by God to vanity…not willing!:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Gods peace,
JoJo

Apparently you do Jo-Jo as you continue to deal with other scripture, and not Rom 10.
John 15 is about Jesus and His Apostles and how they were chosen by God's foreknowledge, NOT about all men. The Greek word here,
ἕλκω / helkō, does NOT convey drag. This is a typical RT rendering, and is contextually wrong.
Trench writes:
These words differ, and the difference between them is not theologically unimportant. We best represent this difference in English, when we render σύρειν, ‘to drag,’ ἑλκύειν, ‘to draw.’ In σύρειν, as in our ‘drag,’ there lies always the notion of force, as when Plutarch (De Lib. Ed. 8) speaks of the headlong course of a river, πάντα αύρων καὶ πάντα παραφέρων: and it will follow, that where persons, and not merely things, are in question, σύρειν will involve the notion of violence (Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6; cf. κατασύρειν, Luke 12:58). But in ἑλκύειν this notion of force or violence does not of necessity lie. It may be there (Acts 16:19; 21:30; Jam. 2:6; cf. Homer, Il. xi. 258; xxiv. 52, 417; Aristophanes, Equit. 710; Euripides, Troad. 70: Αἰὰς εἷλκε Κασάνδραν βίᾳ); but not of necessity (thus Plato, Rep. 6:494 e: ἐὰν ἕλκηται πρὸς φιλοσοφίαν: cf. vii. 538 d), any more than in our ‘draw,’ which we use of a mental and moral attraction, or in the Latin ‘traho’ (‘trahit sua quemque voluptas’).
Only by keeping in mind the difference which thus exists between these, can we vindicate from erroneous interpretation two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of St. John. The first is 12:32: “I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men [πάντας ἑλκύσω] unto Me.” But how does a crucified, and thus an exalted, Saviour draw all men unto Him? Not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. Again (6:44): “No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him” (ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν). Now as many as feel bound to deny any such ‘gratia irresistibilis’ as turns man into a machine, and by which, willing or unwilling, he is dragged to God, must at once allow, must indeed assert, that this ἑλκύσῃ can mean no more than the potent allurements, the allective force of love, the attracting of men by the Father to the Son; compare Jer. 31:3, “With loving-kindness have I drawn thee” (εἵλκυσά σε), and Cant. 1:3, 4. Did we find αύρειν on either of these occasions (not that this would be possible), the assertors of a ‘gratia irresistibilis’1 might then urge the declarations of our Lord as leaving no room for any other meaning but theirs; but not as they now stand.
In agreement with all this, in ἑλκύειν is predominantly the sense of a drawing to a certain point, in σύρειν merely of dragging after one; thus Lucian (De Merc. Cond. 3), likening a man to a fish already hooked and dragged through the water, describes him as συρόμενον καὶ πρὸς ἀνάγκην ἀγόμενον. Not seldom there will lie in αύρειν the notion of this dragging being upon the ground, inasmuch as that will trail upon the ground (cf. σύρμα, σύρδην, and Isai. 3:16), which is forcibly dragged along with no will of its own; a dead body, for example (Philo, In Flac. 21). We may compare John 21:6, 11 with ver. 8 of the same chapter, in confirmation of what has just been affirmed. At ver. 6 and 11 ἑλκύειν is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at ver. 8 ἑλκύειν gives place to σύρειν: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water. Our Version has maintained the distinction; so too the German of De Wette, by aid of ‘ziehen’ (==ἑλκύειν) and ‘nachschleppen’ (==σύρειν); but neither the Vulgate, nor Beza, both employing ‘traho’ throughout.

Nothing you presented so far, supports your POV that we do not have free will, despite your assertions that it is scripture and has to be right.
Romans 8:20 is properly rendered as follows;
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Your biggest problem in properly understanding scripture seems to be your use of the KJV. I suggest you use a more up-to-date and reliable modern English translation. Even the NASB would be better even if it is almost 30 years old.

JoJoRoss · May 20, 2014

Apparently you do Jo-Jo as you continue to deal with other scripture, and not Rom 10.
John 15 is about Jesus and His Apostles and how they were chosen by God's foreknowledge, NOT about all men. The Greek word here,
ἕλκω / helkō, does NOT convey drag. This is a typical RT rendering, and is contextually wrong.
Trench writes:
These words differ, and the difference between them is not theologically unimportant. We best represent this difference in English, when we render σύρειν, ‘to drag,’ ἑλκύειν, ‘to draw.’ In σύρειν, as in our ‘drag,’ there lies always the notion of force, as when Plutarch (De Lib. Ed. 8) speaks of the headlong course of a river, πάντα αύρων καὶ πάντα παραφέρων: and it will follow, that where persons, and not merely things, are in question, σύρειν will involve the notion of violence (Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6; cf. κατασύρειν, Luke 12:58). But in ἑλκύειν this notion of force or violence does not of necessity lie. It may be there (Acts 16:19; 21:30; Jam. 2:6; cf. Homer, Il. xi. 258; xxiv. 52, 417; Aristophanes, Equit. 710; Euripides, Troad. 70: Αἰὰς εἷλκε Κασάνδραν βίᾳ); but not of necessity (thus Plato, Rep. 6:494 e: ἐὰν ἕλκηται πρὸς φιλοσοφίαν: cf. vii. 538 d), any more than in our ‘draw,’ which we use of a mental and moral attraction, or in the Latin ‘traho’ (‘trahit sua quemque voluptas’).
Only by keeping in mind the difference which thus exists between these, can we vindicate from erroneous interpretation two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of St. John. The first is 12:32: “I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men [πάντας ἑλκύσω] unto Me.” But how does a crucified, and thus an exalted, Saviour draw all men unto Him? Not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. Again (6:44): “No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him” (ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν). Now as many as feel bound to deny any such ‘gratia irresistibilis’ as turns man into a machine, and by which, willing or unwilling, he is dragged to God, must at once allow, must indeed assert, that this ἑλκύσῃ can mean no more than the potent allurements, the allective force of love, the attracting of men by the Father to the Son; compare Jer. 31:3, “With loving-kindness have I drawn thee” (εἵλκυσά σε), and Cant. 1:3, 4. Did we find αύρειν on either of these occasions (not that this would be possible), the assertors of a ‘gratia irresistibilis’1 might then urge the declarations of our Lord as leaving no room for any other meaning but theirs; but not as they now stand.
In agreement with all this, in ἑλκύειν is predominantly the sense of a drawing to a certain point, in σύρειν merely of dragging after one; thus Lucian (De Merc. Cond. 3), likening a man to a fish already hooked and dragged through the water, describes him as συρόμενον καὶ πρὸς ἀνάγκην ἀγόμενον. Not seldom there will lie in αύρειν the notion of this dragging being upon the ground, inasmuch as that will trail upon the ground (cf. σύρμα, σύρδην, and Isai. 3:16), which is forcibly dragged along with no will of its own; a dead body, for example (Philo, In Flac. 21). We may compare John 21:6, 11 with ver. 8 of the same chapter, in confirmation of what has just been affirmed. At ver. 6 and 11 ἑλκύειν is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at ver. 8 ἑλκύειν gives place to σύρειν: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water. Our Version has maintained the distinction; so too the German of De Wette, by aid of ‘ziehen’ (==ἑλκύειν) and ‘nachschleppen’ (==σύρειν); but neither the Vulgate, nor Beza, both employing ‘traho’ throughout.

Nothing you presented so far, supports your POV that we do not have free will, despite your assertions that it is scripture and has to be right.
Romans 8:20 is properly rendered as follows;
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Your biggest problem in properly understanding scripture seems to be your use of the KJV. I suggest you use a more up-to-date and reliable modern English translation. Even the NASB would be better even if it is almost 30 years old.

[SIZE=14pt]Stanj, you think God worked differently with the apostles then He does with us? Do you think the whole Bible isn’t for us today? Just certain verses? So God just wanted to pick the apostles for His chosen back then but make us chose him now in this day and age? GOD DOES NOT CHANGE! I am sorry but you or Trench are not rightly dividing Gods Word.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So you say I only use KJV? Sorry I don’t. I just like the King James. Matter of fact, the NIV is a better translation for ἕλκω / helkō, G1670. So let’s look at ἕλκω / helkō, G1670 and the verses (8 total) using the NIV. I won’t include John 6:44. Let’s see what an up to date Bible translation has to say:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]John 12:32-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]And I, when I am lifted up[/SIZE] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
[SIZE=14pt]Is Christ going to drag or draw? You and nobody else are going to resist Christ when He is lifted up. HE WILL DRAG YOU SIR![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]John 18:10-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]What sounds better literally speaking? To draw a sword is figuratively speaking for grabbing that sword out of your side belt and striking your enemy. DRAGGING THAT SWORD is what it literally means. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]John 21:6-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]He said, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]“Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.”[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Haul-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]pull or drag with effort or force. Enough said.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Look at the next 4 passages of scriptures. All use DRAG in the NIV. WOW!!!-[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]John 21:11-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Acts 16:19-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Acts 21:30-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]James 2:6-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Compare scripture with scripture StanJ. Don’t use men to interpret scripture for you. EVERYTHING I stated is scripture expressing Gods Will not man. And your rebuttle to Romans 8:20 does not strengthen your argument, it weakens it. Creation is a better translation! CREATION IS SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLING!!!! DID YOU CATCH THAT!!! ALL OF CREATION is subject to Gods Will.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The Hebrew and Greek translations are the only way to see Gods truth. E-sword is a great tool to use. If you don’t already use it, I recommend it. So you are wrong to state that I just use the KJV. I don’t sir. As you can see, a modern translation was better for ἕλκω / helkō, G1670 (DRAG) to use for these passages.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo [/SIZE]

StanJ · May 20, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
Stanj, you think God worked differently with the apostles then He does with us? Do you think the whole Bible isn’t for us today? Just certain verses? So God just wanted to pick the apostles for His chosen back then but make us chose him now in this day and age? GOD DOES NOT CHANGE! I am sorry but you or Trench are not rightly dividing Gods Word.

So you say I only use KJV? Sorry I don’t. I just like the King James. Matter of fact, the NIV is a better translation for ἕλκω / helkō, G1670. So let’s look at ἕλκω / helkō, G1670 and the verses (8 total) using the NIV. I won’t include John 6:44. Let’s see what an up to date Bible translation has to say:

John 12:32- And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Is Christ going to drag or draw? You and nobody else are going to resist Christ when He is lifted up. HE WILL DRAG YOU SIR!

John 18:10- Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
What sounds better literally speaking? To draw a sword is figuratively speaking for grabbing that sword out of your side belt and striking your enemy. DRAGGING THAT SWORD is what it literally means.

John 21:6- He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
Haul- pull or drag with effort or force. Enough said.

Look at the next 4 passages of scriptures. All use DRAG in the NIV. WOW!!!-

John 21:11- So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn.

Acts 16:19- When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities

Acts 21:30- The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.

James 2:6- But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?

Compare scripture with scripture StanJ. Don’t use men to interpret scripture for you. EVERYTHING I stated is scripture expressing Gods Will not man. And your rebuttle to Romans 8:20 does not strengthen your argument, it weakens it. Creation is a better translation! CREATION IS SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLING!!!! DID YOU CATCH THAT!!! ALL OF CREATION is subject to Gods Will.

The Hebrew and Greek translations are the only way to see Gods truth. E-sword is a great tool to use. If you don’t already use it, I recommend it. So you are wrong to state that I just use the KJV. I don’t sir. As you can see, a modern translation was better for ἕλκω / helkō, G1670 (DRAG) to use for these passages.

Gods Peace,
JoJo

Of course. They were called to be His Apostles and the verse you quoted was meant for THEM, not us as believers. If you take ANY scripture out of context, it is wrong. The Bible is written to certain people, and some of it is applicable to us both personally and collectively. God does not change and neither does His word, so conveying an eisegetical POV that originated in the in the early 1500s by a French humanist lawyer who was in rebellion against the RCC, does not support who God is either.
I accept what Trench exposited because of who he is and his credentials, what credentials do you have?

So if you know the NIV is better than why not use it instead of using an incorrect translation to try and prove your point? THAT is called Eisegesis, and you seem to do this a lot on this thread.
Jesus has already been lifted up ON THE CROSS, and many many people have resisted Him since that time so obviously He did not drag them. You lack of properly exegeting scripture is appalling.
All you basically show is that you don't know Greek and don't apparently also know that words have different connotations. Greeks don't have to translate the words, they know what it means. You want us to believe that ALL credentialed scholars have translated ἕλκω / helkō improperly, and ALL uses of the word should have been DRAG? That is awfully presumptuous for someone who have NO credentials in Greek.
ALL I'm hearing from you is the typical RT rhetoric I find in many forums.
FYI, I have been studying God's word for over 43 years now and YOU my friend are not telling me anything new, it's the same old fallacious RT teaching.

RANDOR · May 20, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
[SIZE=14pt]Randor,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Satan is for real, absolutely. I battle with the father of lies every day. I have studied “Hell” for many hours, days, weeks etc and I found out through the Holy Spirit that it is not true. I wanted to know if God is love, how could He send and torment His creation day and night for not believing Him in this age. I thought love never fails? I thought love your enemy? But that all goes out the window when the ungenerated sinner dies? Is God contradicting? See. This haunted me for a long time. I prayed to God every second I could for a long time searching if Eternal Hell was for real. It aint. Why? The Word of God. The Holy Spirit of God. Pray, seek. Find out if God is love. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]The words "everlasting" "evermore," "forever," "for ever AND EVER[?]," and "eternal" are nowhere found even once in any Hebrew or Greek manuscript from which our modern language bibles are translated. It is always translated as an age (beginning and end). I am sorry if you don’t hold scriptures as actual words from God on paper…I do...and God is who I am going to follow:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Col 1:19-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Love,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Forsakenone,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]One verse for you:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1 Cor 2:14-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I assume you’re being sarcastic. The Father drags us spiritually to Him no physically. God is Spirit. We must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Haha not a female Floyd. And I never meet a female who didn’t think she had a free will [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I am not afraid of freewill? When the truth of no free will was revealed to me in scriptures, I was afraid for a longggg timmeee of not having a freewill. I honestly think it is the other way around. People are extremely afraid of not having a freewill. They think their robots and don’t have a say in anything. What they don’t understand is the human race can’t choose good and don’t seek God…NOT ONE (Romans 3:10-12). Believe me, I struggled with this A LONG TIMEEE. It took a lot of purging from God for me to see this truth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

So if you believe there is no hell......well.........then you need to get out of that book an experience God.
Hmmmmmmm this scripture comes to mind.............King James Bible
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
that is just one of many about hell.

Have you ever seen a demon?????? Probaby not...because if you don't believe in hell...satan loves that....that means you are missing other things that are of importance.

Trust me.........I've seen many..........why???? because I battle for people's souls everyday

Once you have seen one...you will never doubt again if there is a hell or not.
Do not fear man if he kills you.........but after that....or should I say before that happens....we should fear the one (God) who can can cast your body into hell.

LIKE THE DEMONS SAID....Hmmmmmmmm demon's, where did they come from?........the demons said...Jesus we know Paul we know

BUT WHO ARE YOU????????

JoJoRoss · May 20, 2014

Of course. They were called to be His Apostles and the verse you quoted was meant for THEM, not us as believers. If you take ANY scripture out of context, it is wrong. The Bible is written to certain people, and some of it is applicable to us both personally and collectively. God does not change and neither does His word, so conveying an eisegetical POV that originated in the in the early 1500s by a French humanist lawyer who was in rebellion against the RCC, does not support who God is either.
I accept what Trench exposited because of who he is and his credentials, what credentials do you have?

So if you know the NIV is better than why not use it instead of using an incorrect translation to try and prove your point? THAT is called Eisegesis, and you seem to do this a lot on this thread.
Jesus has already been lifted up ON THE CROSS, and many many people have resisted Him since that time so obviously He did not drag them. You lack of properly exegeting scripture is appalling.
All you basically show is that you don't know Greek and don't apparently also know that words have different connotations. Greeks don't have to translate the words, they know what it means. You want us to believe that ALL credentialed scholars have translated ἕλκω / helkō improperly, and ALL uses of the word should have been DRAG? That is awfully presumptuous for someone who have NO credentials in Greek.
ALL I'm hearing from you is the typical RT rhetoric I find in many forums.
FYI, I have been studying God's word for over 43 years now and YOU my friend are not telling me anything new, it's the same old fallacious RT teaching.

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Sorry StanJ, but you and the RCC are soooo wrong according to scripture. And I am no follower of Calvin or any man. I am a follower of Christ and His Word. Not you though huh? You follow Jacob Arminius. You follow the traditions of men. I take you believe in eternal torment of those who don’t believe in this age too right? See that is why you can’t believe in God’s truth. You are afraid too because if you did you believe God created people to burn in “hell”. The RCC used Hell as a form of control. Look at what the RCC did throughout the whole history of the world. Murdering in the name of God…disgusting![/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The Bible is written to anyone who has ears to hear and eyes to see. You are stuck in mens traditions. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]StanJ, I'm just a small potato. I think we should go to the SOURCE and find out what credentials He had. Let’s ask Jesus what His creditials were:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Dear Jesus Christ: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I would like to know more about your background, especially your formal education. Did you attend seminary? Do you have degrees from Jerusalem Tech? How many? In what special line of theology? I want to determine for myself if you are a man to be trusted or followed. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ever since you and your twelve buddies have been teaching, people around here are beginning to questions all the wonderful things the Pharisees have been telling us for many years. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Quite frankly, many of your new teachings scare me. I don't think that you should be causing people to lose their faith in the great Scribes and Pharisees. They have DEGREES don't you know? They are great DOCTORS OF THE LAW and I don't think you should talk about them the way you do. Especially calling them HYPOCRITES and SNAKES and such.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Do you reckon, StanJ, that the Twelve Apostles all had seminary schooling and degrees from Jerusalem Tech?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]NIV is not better than the KJV in everything. I use different bibles that translate better places then others. Sorry if my “Eisegesis” is not up to par with yours StanJ. I thank GOD it’s not. Jesus was lifted up on the cross and He will drag all to Him at the end of this age. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]But for now, those who believe in him this life will be saved from sin and reign with Him in the 1000 year bringing ALL to confess Jesus is Lord. Do you teach this? The bible says to:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt])[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Haha StanJ??! I just showed you all the verses that have this greek word?? You don’t see drag as the proper usage? I am sorry but it’s plain as day to me? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Good for you StanJ. But honestly it doesn’t matter to God if it has been 1000 years. If you don’t have the eyes to see and ears to hear…you’re not going to get it. God will let you when He sees fit. I will pray it is sooner than later. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]JoJo[/SIZE]

StanJ · May 20, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
Sorry StanJ, but you and the RCC are soooo wrong according to scripture. And I am no follower of Calvin or any man. I am a follower of Christ and His Word. Not you though huh? You follow Jacob Arminius. You follow the traditions of men. I take you believe in eternal torment of those who don’t believe in this age too right? See that is why you can’t believe in God’s truth. You are afraid too because if you did you believe God created people to burn in “hell”. The RCC used Hell as a form of control. Look at what the RCC did throughout the whole history of the world. Murdering in the name of God…disgusting!
The Bible is written to anyone who has ears to hear and eyes to see. You are stuck in mens traditions.

StanJ, I'm just a small potato. I think we should go to the SOURCE and find out what credentials He had. Let’s ask Jesus what His creditials were:
Dear Jesus Christ:
I would like to know more about your background, especially your formal education. Did you attend seminary? Do you have degrees from Jerusalem Tech? How many? In what special line of theology? I want to determine for myself if you are a man to be trusted or followed.
Ever since you and your twelve buddies have been teaching, people around here are beginning to questions all the wonderful things the Pharisees have been telling us for many years.
Quite frankly, many of your new teachings scare me. I don't think that you should be causing people to lose their faith in the great Scribes and Pharisees. They have DEGREES don't you know? They are great DOCTORS OF THE LAW and I don't think you should talk about them the way you do. Especially calling them HYPOCRITES and SNAKES and such.
Do you reckon, StanJ, that the Twelve Apostles all had seminary schooling and degrees from Jerusalem Tech?

NIV is not better than the KJV in everything. I use different bibles that translate better places then others. Sorry if my “Eisegesis” is not up to par with yours StanJ. I thank GOD it’s not. Jesus was lifted up on the cross and He will drag all to Him at the end of this age.
But for now, those who believe in him this life will be saved from sin and reign with Him in the 1000 year bringing ALL to confess Jesus is Lord. Do you teach this? The bible says to:
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

Haha StanJ??! I just showed you all the verses that have this greek word?? You don’t see drag as the proper usage? I am sorry but it’s plain as day to me?

Good for you StanJ. But honestly it doesn’t matter to God if it has been 1000 years. If you don’t have the eyes to see and ears to hear…you’re not going to get it. God will let you when He sees fit. I will pray it is sooner than later.

Gods Peace,
JoJo

As there is obviously no reasoning with you and your fallacious view of salvation, I will not pursue this thread any further. You refuse to acknowledge what scriptures you are given and falsely label scholars as incompetent, when your own words show you know nothing of the Greek language.
Jesus' words are clear for everyone who has a will of their own.

“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

You have been properly instructed.

JoJoRoss · May 21, 2014

[SIZE=medium]As there is obviously no reasoning with you and your fallacious view of salvation, I will not pursue this thread any further. You refuse to acknowledge what scriptures you are given and falsely label scholars as incompetent, when your own words show you know nothing of the Greek language.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]StanJ, I just showed you all 8 verses that have this Greek word in it. The proper use would be DRAG. Praying for you sir.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Jesus' words are clear for everyone who has a will of their own.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]You have been properly instructed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Great verse. We are supposed to do this absolutely. You just don’t want to see HOW we do these things. Again, you are questioning your Molder:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Romans 9:19-21(NASB)- You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?.........[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]NOPE! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]YOU have been properly instructed by the Word of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Floyd · May 21, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
[SIZE=14pt]StanJ, I just showed you all 8 verses that have this Greek word in it. The proper use would be DRAG. Praying for you sir.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Great verse. We are supposed to do this absolutely. You just don’t want to see HOW we do these things. Again, you are questioning your Molder:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Romans 9:19-21(NASB)- You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?.........[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]NOPE! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]YOU have been properly instructed by the Word of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

I agree with StanJ JoJo!
You seem obdurate to any correct understanding from the Word!
Floyd.

[SIZE=14pt]One of the many major differences between mankind and angels, is humans will deny the existence of God Almighty, and also Satan. It is implicit that one element is common to both earthly and heavenly creation, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]! It is therefore easy to understand that heavenly creation rejoices at the expulsion of such an adversary, after so long in their midst, and also in the knowledge that Satan's efforts will be short on earth. The question often asked by many over the years, is how could Almighty God allow Satan to exist after such rebellion, and even to be in His presence, to have place in heaven; and patrol earth (Job 1 and 2.) The answer undoubtedly lies in The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God allows Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the Creation/Overthrow, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to. Conversely, the Almighty will be seen by all creation to take the burden and result on Himself, in the form of Christ Jesus (Col. 1:20.) It is thereafter the response to Christ's death and suffering (in the place of all humankind,) which is the key to the individuals eternal destiny, on earth and also in heaven, in this Age, and eternity!

The main thrust for Satan's pernicious attention had been heaven's occupants and the tribes of Israel. Abraham was chosen by God! He was called "the friend of God," (Ex. 33:11, 2Chr. 20:7, Isa. 41:8, Jms. 2:23,) because his heart was against the idolatry of his father, and the nation Ur, which derived from Babylon! After Paul's declaration (Acts 28:25-28,) all the world's nations became the subject of Satan's attention; which showed in the Wisdom of Jehovah Zebaoth, that the failure of Satan at The Cross and the failure of Israel to accept Christ (Acts 28:26,) increased the eventual harvest for Christ / Jehovah. Most people on earth are fixated with their flesh life, which is natural enough. However, God has ordained that they are not content, and can only find rest, peace and understanding in Him, albeit in simple sincere trust, which most people find hard to give unless they encounter Christ, personally. Because all the efforts of Satan are eventually self defeating, and will be seen as such by heavenly and earthly creation, the Almighty in Christ will vanquish Satan, but not until heaven and earth have been reminded that Satan stands for deceit, destruction, suffering, and death, as opposed to the Love, Peace, Justice and Righteousness of Jehovah/Christ. After that reminder, Satan and his followers will be consigned to doom (Rev. 20:10.) All that remains for individuals at the present time (i.e. this Age) is to trust in God's work, in Christ Jesus. The timing of the above is in the hands of the Father only (Matt. 24:36,) and His timing is perfect (Matt. 5:48.) The perfect timing of God the Father means that Satan is defeated by perfect Love (a concept totally alien to mankind

which means that Satan is defeated by Love, which is God (1 John 4:8-16!) Had Satan been destroyed at the time of his rebellion, none of the above could have come into play, and such action by the Almighty would have been seen by creation as dictatorial, and His plan of Love could not unfold to fruition. As the plan now unfolds, God will indeed be seen as Ultimate Love.[/SIZE]

JoJoRoss · May 21, 2014

[SIZE=medium]So if you believe there is no hell......well.........then you need to get out of that book an experience God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Hmmmmmmm this scripture comes to mind.............[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]King James Bible[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]that is just one of many about hell.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Randor,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Regarding-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (GEHENNA); yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]James contains what we need to know about Gehenna in a simple scripture:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]James 3:4-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life,[/SIZE] and is set on fire by Gehenna

[SIZE=14pt]Notice something interesting here: the combination of WATER imagery (think...lake) and FIRE[/SIZE] imagery. What is James talking about here with regard to Gehenna and sin itself? Sin itself is like a lake of fire. This is why Jesus warned his believers not to be turned over to this Gehenna, to have it consume the entire body. James warns of the same thing. The Prodigal Son was in a lake of fire.

This judgment, being turned over to ones own sin, to be humbled is part of bringing people to humility. The Prodigal Son was brought to the end of himself. Unfortunately, that was a painful process, and it would have been better to stay by his father's side and receive a gentle rebuke, rather than have all his wickedness consume him and eat him up like fire on briars and thorns.

This not without ultimate redemption for as Revelation 22 demonstrates, there is a Bride of Christ saying "all who are athirst enter and take from the water of life freely."
[SIZE=14pt]The last enemy will be death. First death, second death- all death will be destroyed and all will be in God-alive. God will be in all- alive. So whtever the nature of the death, or "slaying" as the word is rendered in Romans 7:11, it cannot be permanent because God will be all in all- even in those who were His adversaries, according to 1 Cor 15:23-28.

God will reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of Christ, everything on heaven and earth....everything created by Christ- according to Colossians 1:11-16 and Romans 8:18-24. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Have you ever seen a demon?????? Probaby not...because if you don't believe in hell...satan loves that....that means you are missing other things that are of importance.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Trust me.........I've seen many..........why???? because I battle for people's souls everyday[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Once you have seen one...you will never doubt again if there is a hell or not.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Do not fear man if he kills you.........but after that....or should I say before that happens....we should fear the one (God) who can can cast your body into hell.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]LIKE THE DEMONS SAID....Hmmmmmmmm demon's, where did they come from?........the demons said...Jesus we know Paul we know[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]BUT WHO ARE YOU????????[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I thank God I never have seen a demon. According to the Word of God, He is the father of all spirits, both good and evil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](Heb 12:9[/SIZE] KJV) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
[SIZE=14pt](Isa 45:7[/SIZE] KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
[SIZE=14pt](Amo 3:6[/SIZE] KJV) Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

[SIZE=14pt]God is in control of all things, even this evil spirits that you have encountered. Have the faith that God is in control: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](Eph 1:11[/SIZE] KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[SIZE=14pt](Psa 23:4[/SIZE] KJV) Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
[SIZE=14pt]According to the Word, dealing with evil spirits is all about faith:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](Mat 17:14[/SIZE] KJV) And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
(Mat 17:15 KJV) Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
(Mat 17:16 KJV) And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
(Mat 17:17 KJV) Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
(Mat 17:18 KJV) And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
(Mat 17:19 KJV) Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
(Mat 17:20 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(Mat 17:21 KJV) Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

[SIZE=14pt]Where do demons come from? God:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](1Sa 16:14[/SIZE] KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

[SIZE=14pt]Who am I? A soldier of Christ Jesus (2 Tim 2:3). Let the Word of God chasten you my friend. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods soldier,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

I agree with StanJ JoJo!
You seem obdurate to any correct understanding from the Word!
Floyd.

[SIZE=14pt]Floyd, you are talking back to God just like StanJ is. I don't know what else to tell you. I put many verses on this thread showing that God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, but you don't want to believe it. Please don't be this man:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:19-21(NASB)- You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Will it Floyd? Romans 9 is clear. You just are talking back to God. Pray, ponder and seek. God will give you the eyes to see and ears to hear when He see's fit. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Floyd · May 22, 2014

Stanj, you think God worked differently with the apostles then He does with us? Do you think the whole Bible isn’t for us today? Just certain verses? So God just wanted to pick the apostles for His chosen back then but make us chose him now in this day and age? GOD DOES NOT CHANGE! I am sorry but you or Trench are not rightly dividing Gods Word.

JoJo: I believe you are sincere!
I understand that you have interpreted a verse (or a few) which have relieved a tension in you in the past!
I have to say that you are wrong in your interpretation, One verse in particular which you have quoted to support your stand; John 15:16, is in fact the Lord talking to His disciples! Context is always important, and particularly so in Scripture.
It was the practice of the time of Jesus for disciples to choose their master. Jesus stated the opposite; and showed He was choosing them! I assure you I tell the truth here, you can check it with Josephus!
As regards all of Scripture being for all at all time; in the sense you have expressed it, that is not the case; its interpretation is Age specific; but also general in some of its teaching and example! We all know the verse 2Tim.3:16; but that is not a guide to interpretation!
What is; is what the great Miles Coverdale said and used in his Bible translation work 600+ years ago:

[SIZE=24pt]"It will greatly help understanding of Scripture to see what is spoken or written, by whom, to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows." [/SIZE]

I implore you to reconsider your position; as at present, you are played into the hands of Satan; who, was the first to use his freewill to rebel against Almighty God; and has been urging all to do ever since!

This puts you on the cusp of danger, as you are doing what Calvin refused to do; and state that freewill is of no value.

How do you think Satan managed to get one third of angels to reject God; by their freewill!

Freewill is the most valuable element in your God given persona; as it determines your outcome eternally; you cannot enter grace by default!

Think about this; what is the reason for the mind (brain), if it is not to be used?

Regards, Floyd.

http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Satanhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Satanhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Satan

JoJoRoss · May 22, 2014

Stanj, you think God worked differently with the apostles then He does with us? Do you think the whole Bible isn’t for us today? Just certain verses? So God just wanted to pick the apostles for His chosen back then but make us chose him now in this day and age? GOD DOES NOT CHANGE! I am sorry but you or Trench are not rightly dividing Gods Word.

JoJo: I believe you are sincere!
I understand that you have interpreted a verse (or a few) which have relieved a tension in you in the past!
I have to say that you are wrong in your interpretation, One verse in particular which you have quoted to support your stand; John 15:16, is in fact the Lord talking to His disciples! Context is always important, and particularly so in Scripture.
It was the practice of the time of Jesus for disciples to choose their master. Jesus stated the opposite; and showed He was choosing them! I assure you I tell the truth here, you can check it with Josephus!
As regards all of Scripture being for all at all time; in the sense you have expressed it, that is not the case; its interpretation is Age specific; but also general in some of its teaching and example! We all know the verse 2Tim.3:16; but that is not a guide to interpretation!
What is; is what the great Miles Coverdale said and used in his Bible translation work 600+ years ago:

[SIZE=24pt]"It will greatly help understanding of Scripture to see what is spoken or written, by whom, to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows." [/SIZE]

I implore you to reconsider your position; as at present, you are played into the hands of Satan; who, was the first to use his freewill to rebel against Almighty God; and has been urging all to do ever since!
This puts you on the cusp of danger, as you are doing what Calvin refused to do; and state that freewill is of no value.
How do you think Satan managed to get one third of angels to reject God; by their freewill!
Freewill is the most valuable element in your God given persona; as it determines your outcome eternally; you cannot enter grace by default!
Think about this; what is the reason for the mind (brain), if it is not to be used?
Regards, Floyd.

[SIZE=14pt]Floyd I believe you are sincere as well. I am sorry but I believe the Word of God is for all-past, present and future. I am sorry you don’t. I am sorry you don’t like 2 Tim 3:16. Let’s try another one for you:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 15:4-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Coverdale, like Tyndale (who I believe were both sincere as well) were not proficient in Greek and Hebrew. They got the bible out to the masses and this was a great accomplishment (they died for it). BUT we can see that the KJV had some issues with translations. AND the biggest reason why I can’t follow Coverdale is his belief in an eternal hell and his translation of AION to mean eternal, forever etc. When the Hebrew word Olam and the Greek word Aion always meant an age-beginning and end.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I do NOT believe we have a "free" will. It is GOD who "wills" in us. Choices have nothing to do with free will. All choices are caused. There is no such thing as a choice that DID NOT have a cause! And when a choice is CAUSED to happen, it could NOT have been prevented. Think about it for a couple of thousand hours as I have and it will all become clear to you. There are hundreds of Scriptures that show that God is Sovereign and that man is caused to make his choices by circumstances that ONLY GOD CONTROLS.

It is not true that if you have no free will, then it is God Who does or commits your sins in you. No, YOU SIN BY VOLUNTARILY [NOT "freely" OR WITHOUT A CAUSE] DOING WRONG. You do wrong because you [and me too, Floyd] were created too spiritually WEAK NOT TO SIN. And it was NOT A MISTAKE [sin] on God's part to MAKE US WEAK so that we sin. He did it for great purpose. God does not sin by creating creatures THAT DO SIN.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my three year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not God)!

How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in? Why does He allow it to continue? If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way? As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES? Weren't things bad ENOUGH?

The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom. Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?

Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?

I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".

Now I have mediated on this grand theme for a longggg timmeeee. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!!

And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!

These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, they really are. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!

So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men not to understand His simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need His spirit of wisdom to trust Him and that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

See this is why I posted Romans 9 on this forum. The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's Will. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's Will.

Why does God blame people for things that He Willed that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] Will? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).

Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gods Love,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

nothead · May 22, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
[SIZE=14pt]Floyd I believe you are sincere as well. I am sorry but I believe the Word of God is for all-past, present and future. I am sorry you don’t. I am sorry you don’t like 2 Tim 3:16. Let’s try another one for you:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 15:4-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Coverdale, like Tyndale (who I believe were both sincere as well) were not proficient in Greek and Hebrew. They got the bible out to the masses and this was a great accomplishment (they died for it). BUT we can see that the KJV had some issues with translations. AND the biggest reason why I can’t follow Coverdale is his belief in an eternal hell and his translation of AION to mean eternal, forever etc. When the Hebrew word Olam and the Greek word Aion always meant an age-beginning and end.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I do NOT believe we have a "free" will. It is GOD who "wills" in us. Choices have nothing to do with free will. All choices are caused. There is no such thing as a choice that DID NOT have a cause! And when a choice is CAUSED to happen, it could NOT have been prevented. Think about it for a couple of thousand hours as I have and it will all become clear to you. There are hundreds of Scriptures that show that God is Sovereign and that man is caused to make his choices by circumstances that ONLY GOD CONTROLS.

It is not true that if you have no free will, then it is God Who does or commits your sins in you. No, YOU SIN BY VOLUNTARILY [NOT "freely" OR WITHOUT A CAUSE] DOING WRONG. You do wrong because you [and me too, Floyd] were created too spiritually WEAK NOT TO SIN. And it was NOT A MISTAKE [sin] on God's part to MAKE US WEAK so that we sin. He did it for great purpose. God does not sin by creating creatures THAT DO SIN.

God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my three year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not God)!

How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in? Why does He allow it to continue? If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way? As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES? Weren't things bad ENOUGH?

The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom. Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?

Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?

I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".

Now I have mediated on this grand theme for a longggg timmeeee. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!!

And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!

These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, they really are. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!

So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men not to understand His simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need His spirit of wisdom to trust Him and that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

See this is why I posted Romans 9 on this forum. The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's Will. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's Will.

Why does God blame people for things that He Willed that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] Will? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).

Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Gods Love,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men not to understand His simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need His spirit of wisdom to trust Him and that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.[/SIZE]

You are quoting and affirming God's intentions...1) Having no idea what you say 2) not knowing what you say is contradictory to fairness 3) not knowing what you say may have caveats.

"Fitted for destruction." This is okay as long as THEY are fitted for destruction not me or YOU. So you assume you are the clay pot fitted for honor?

Then you have no fear, to fear. Whoopee. Jesus said to fear God yet you do not do you?

Are you really allowing for the majority to be fitted for destruction? And saying this is fair or not? How can you, IF this is the majority? Or are you a universalist?

RANDOR · May 22, 2014

Put me down.......for believing we have free will......for 30 points

JoJoRoss · May 22, 2014

You are quoting and affirming God's intentions...1) Having no idea what you say 2) not knowing what you say is contradictory to fairness 3) not knowing what you say may have caveats.

"Fitted for destruction." This is okay as long as THEY are fitted for destruction not me or YOU. So you assume you are the clay pot fitted for honor?

Then you have no fear, to fear. Whoopee. Jesus said to fear God yet you do not do you?

Are you really allowing for the majority to be fitted for destruction? And saying this is fair or not? How can you, IF this is the majority? Or are you a universalist?

[SIZE=14pt]Yes nothead, the bible says to fear God so I do…the bible says love cast out all fear as well. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]How then do we make these two verses of scripture agree with each other?:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear[/SIZE]: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[SIZE=14pt]As with every word of scripture, there is both a positive and a negative application to this word ‘fear’. The fear of God is the positive application of this word ‘fear’. as these verses demonstrate:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Christ had as much love as any man who has ever lived, but did He fear His Father? We need not speculate:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Should we also “fear God”? Again we are given very clear instructions on this matter from none other than our Lord Himself:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (GEHENNA).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So the fear which is cast out by perfect love is not the fear of God, rather it is the fear of men, “Them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul”.

It was not a healthy fear of God which caused the apostle Peter to separate himself from the Gentiles in Antioch. It was his fear of what some Jews in Jerusalem might think of him. It was not a healthy fear of God that caused Judas to sell his Lord into the hands of those who hated Him. It was greed and the fact that God had sent Satan to enter into Judas to strengthen him to do his dastardly deed. Christ on the other hand was heard by His Father and was strengthened to endure His trial and was “saved from death… in that He feared [ His Father] who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [ Gehenna]“.

It is healthy to fear to be destroyed in Gehenna:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is clear now that the fear of God and the love of God are very closely associated, and we fear to disobey our loving heavenly Father just as our Lord feared. Christ’s fear of His Father was rooted in His overwhelming desire to please His Father because He loved His Father more than this world or anyone or anything in this world. When that is the case, we will be able to come boldly to the throne of grace and be bold in the day of judgment, in which we are even now living:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need[/SIZE].

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[SIZE=14pt]The majority is fitted to destruction and few will find life (Matt 7:13-14). Thankfully God sent His Son to die for ALL. BUT in this life it will be His firstfruits (James 1:18) that will reign with Him 1000 years and judging everyone at the White throne and cast them into Him (Lake of Fire, God is an consuming fire). When this happens ALL will be made righteous (judgments on earth bring righteousness Isaiah 26:9) and CONFESS and bow to God (no one can confess to God without the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3). So He will be ALL in ALL. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In the name of Jesus Christ the Savior of ALL men,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Forsakenone · May 22, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
Forsakenone,

One verse for you:
1 Cor 2:14- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But if I may, may I ask if you assume I was being sarcastic for asking you a question or did God require it of you?

But irregardless of your response, thank you for the verse and, here is a verse for you:

John 6:46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But I won’t ask if you Jesus called you, since you obviously state that you weren’t since you were dragged.

However, regarding the things of the Spirit of God, you claim that Eve did not “freely” will to sin. The following quote is an excerpt from your prophesy of scripture [2 Peter 1:20] regarding the text contained in Genesis 3:

JoJoRoss said:
The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will.

Eve did not "freely" will to sin.

Where does anyone see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE nothead?

When you were discerning, I find it disconcerting that you didn’t notice that the female’s name wasn’t Eve. That indicates that you didn’t discern that the male and female were named Adam. But you will probably consider it foolishness that the wife of Adam wasn’t given the name Eve until the 20th verse of the passage in Genesis 3. [2 Peter 1:21] But then again the Woman wasn't a reference to the female.

JoJoRoss · May 22, 2014

When you were discerning, I find it disconcerting that you didn’t notice that the female’s name wasn’t Eve. That indicates that you didn’t discern that the male and female were named Adam. But you will probably consider it foolishness that the wife of Adam wasn’t given the name Eve until the 20th verse of the passage in Genesis 3. [2 Peter 1:21] But then again the Woman wasn't a reference to the female.

[SIZE=14pt]Forsakenone,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Ok. Sorry I am a little confused? Can you please let me know what your point is? None of what you said disregards the fact that Satan was the CAUSE of Eve/woman/female/male/Adam?:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]2 Cor 11:3-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the reference to:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2 Peter 1:21(YST):[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]for NOT by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That says will of man, not free will of man. Only by Gods Holy Spirit (Gods Will) did holy men prophecy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It looks like you believe in the false doctrine of free will. Here some verses for you:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen ["In the Potter's hand] in iniquity; and in sin did my mother [ Creator] conceive me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Pro 20:24 Man’s goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.[/SIZE]

Gods Will be done,
JoJo

Floyd · May 22, 2014

Thanks your reply JoJo; I cannot see why you take your position re freewill; but I can see that you are fixed on that opinion.
Just a departing shot: Satan wants you to think that way, and, he is at present the "prince of this world"!
I assume you believe in the Saving Grace of God in Christ Jesus?
I assume you believe in Christ's Deity?
Regards, Floyd.

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