Are WE as Christians a new creation or is it Christianity?

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StanJ

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justaname said:
ωστε ει τις εν Χριστω καινη κτισις τα αρχαια παρηλθεν

This is what the Greek says...

Looking to the text literally it would say "If anyone in Christ a new creation, the old things passed away"

I like what the NASB says because it coincides with the whole of Scripture. Truly translations are not 100% accurate due to language differences so I pick the translation that best agrees with the whole of Scripture.

I don't agree with your assessment regarding the exhortations. Simply because we are spiritually made anew does not mean we will follow our new nature.
I think you missed something in your quote, as the Greek below shows, which is from the NA 25th edition.

ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις: τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά:

ALL translators know that you can't translate any language literally. It is either formal equivalence of functional equivalence. Eugene Nida was the biggest proponent of the latter, and in my opinion it renders the Greek in a much more relevant rendering. I am bilingual in English and French and from my experience as well, French cannot LITERALLY (word-for-word) be translated into English.

IMO you agree with the NASB because it says what you believe, not because it is the most accurate.

Mounce shows the functional equivalence of the Greek with the relevant Greek interlinear.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Cor+5%3A17&version=MOUNCE

Sorry, I don't know what you are referring to regarding exhortations? I have pointed out some scripture that shows we grow in Christ and are NOT a new person or creature so I can't see why you would assert the NASB says the same thing in all scripture, when it doesn't, and I gave you an example of where it doesn't. You'll have to do a tad better at corroborating your POV.

Axehead said:
It is very simple. There is one Body of Christ, not many.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is definitely speaking of individual men. You don't speak about the singular Body of Christ by saying "if any man".

But, then again, each of the 5 translations do say, "If anyone", so they have that part right and Paul has to be speaking of individual men, individual "anyones", if you please.

This argument is like asking if the following verse is talking about the one new man (body of Christ) or an individual, human.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you have the Spirit of Christ you are a new creature.

Axehead
You're missing the point of the OP Axehead. I gave 5 translations that don't all say the same thing, and one of them was NOT the KJV. The point is NOT how you interpret the English, it is what IS the proper English. All you've basically done is eisegete the English one you prefer.
 

Axehead

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StanJ said:
You're missing the point of the OP Axehead. I gave 5 translations that don't all say the same thing, and one of them was NOT the KJV. The point is NOT how you interpret the English, it is what IS the proper English. All you've basically done is eisegete the English one you prefer.
My bad, entirely Stan and my sincerest apologies. I think KJV is the proper English, but since it has been omitted from consideration, I will decline to post anymore in this thread.

All the best.

Axehead
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
I think you missed something in your quote, as the Greek below shows, which is from the NA 25th edition.

ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις: τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά:

ALL translators know that you can't translate any language literally. It is either formal equivalence of functional equivalence. Eugene Nida was the biggest proponent of the latter, and in my opinion it renders the Greek in a much more relevant rendering. I am bilingual in English and French and from my experience as well, French cannot LITERALLY (word-for-word) be translated into English.

IMO you agree with the NASB because it says what you believe, not because it is the most accurate.

Mounce shows the functional equivalence of the Greek with the relevant Greek interlinear.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Cor+5%3A17&version=MOUNCE

Sorry, I don't know what you are referring to regarding exhortations? I have pointed out some scripture that shows we grow in Christ and are NOT a new person or creature so I can't see why you would assert the NASB says the same thing in all scripture, when it doesn't, and I gave you an example of where it doesn't. You'll have to do a tad better at corroborating your POV.


You're missing the point of the OP Axehead. I gave 5 translations that don't all say the same thing, and one of them was NOT the KJV. The point is NOT how you interpret the English, it is what IS the proper English. All you've basically done is eisegete the English one you prefer.
In post #16 I show supporting Scripture of a new creation. This is given through the context of the verse, and supporting Scripture with the language "born again". If by being born again you feel you remain the old creation please give your supporting Scriptures and explain your view.

Your quote is, "If we were indeed NEW as you interpret it, we would not need to be exhorted to do good."
My response to that is, "Simply because we are spiritually made anew does not mean we will follow our new nature."
What I mean by this is because we are new does not facilitate the removal of the will or freedom of choice. In such we are exhorted to "walk in the Spirit" and "put to death the deeds of the body".

I do agree we are not yet as we will be, yet we are not as we once were. Look to this...

Were it not for the conditional and individual cast of the sentence (“if anyone”), we might readily find in the phrase καινὴ κτίσις a reference to a cosmic and ontological reality brought into existence by the Christ-event. As it is, the εἰ and the τις combine to give καινὴ κτίσις a personal reference relating to an individual’s faith-union with Christ. It would make no sense to render εἴ τις by “since anyone”; then “since everyone” would be εἰ πᾶς/πάντες. So the existence of the καινὴ κτίσις is conditional upon a person’s coming to be “in Christ.” Whether κτίσις here means “act of creating” or “creature” (= κτίσμα)/“being,” the focus is on divine agency (cf. v. 18a), be it the agency of Christ or (as is more probable) of God. Already in this letter Paul has depicted conversion as a creatorial act of God, comparable to the initial creation of light (4:6). Now, with the adjective καινή, he emphasizes the altered nature of the converted person or the newness of God’s creatorial action. The rendering “there is a new creation” (REB) reproduces the ambiguity of the Greek, which could mean “there is a newly-created being” (Thrall 400)/“he or she is a newly-created person” or “there is a new act of creation” (Barrett 162). Like the Johannine γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν (John 3:7) and the Petrine ἀναγεννηθῆναι (“to be born anew/again,” cf. 1 Pet. 1:3, 23), the Pauline καινὴ κτίσις refers to individual rebirth or regeneration (παλιγγενεσία, Tit. 3:5) as God’s sovereign and creatorial act. Yet it is true that the renewal of the individual in conversion prefigures the renewal of the cosmos at the end (cf. ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, Matt. 19:28; also Rom. 8:19–23) (Harris 166–71). If, then, the emphasis in v. 17a is anthropological and personal, not cosmological and eschatological, we may perhaps discover the background for Paul’s use here of καινὴ κτίσις, not in the Isaianic passages that describe the restoration of Israel and cosmic renewal when the new age dawns,62 but in the Jewish apocalyptic and rabbinic description of the sinner who repents or the Gentile who converts to Judaism as a “new creature” (beriyyâ ḥadāšâ).


The theology of the NT—or indeed Pauline theology—could be written around this theocentric concept of “newness” (καινότης, Rom. 6:4; 7:6), which is summed up in the statement, ἰδού καινὰ ποιῶ πάντα (Rev. 21:5; cf. Isa. 43:19, LXX), “See! I make everything new!”64 In the new era brought by Christ, there is the new wine of the new age (Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37–38), the new covenant (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8, 13; 9:15; 12:24), the new creation/creature (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), the new man/humanity (Eph. 2:15; 4:24; Col. 3:10), the new song of redemption (Rev. 5:9; 14:3), the new name for believers (Rev. 2:17; 3:12), and the new commandment of love (John 13:34; 1 John 2:8). In the consummated kingdom there will be the new wine of the heavenly banquet (Mark 14:25), a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1; cf. 2 Pet. 3:13), and a new Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12; 21:2).

Taken from: The New International Greek Testament Commentary: The Second Epistle to the Corinthians by Murray J. Harris

5:17. No one was more able to reflect on that transformation than Paul who switched from a persecutor of Christ to a proclaimer of Christ (Acts 9:5, 20–22). He was in Christ (a phrase Paul used repeatedly in his epistles to speak of a believer’s spiritual relationship to Christ) because he believed the message of the gospel and was identified by faith with Christ (2 Cor. 5:14–15; cf. Rom. 6:3–4; Gal. 2:20; 6:14). To be in Christ is to be a new creation (cf. Gal. 6:15). This new creation is brought about by the Holy Spirit, the Agent of regeneration (Titus 3:5) and the Giver of divine birth (John 3:3, 6–8). God’s new creative work, begun in each one who believes in Christ, will one day be consummated on a universal scale (Rev. 21:4–5). The old life of slavery to self and sin has gone (2 Cor. 5:16; cf. Rom. 6:6–14; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9). The new life of devotion to Christ means that one has new attitudes and actions (cf. 2 Cor. 5:14–15; Rom. 6:4; Eph. 4:23–5:2).

Taken from: The Bible Knowledge Commentary
 

StanJ

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Axehead said:
My bad, entirely Stan and my sincerest apologies. I think KJV is the proper English, but since it has been omitted from consideration, I will decline to post anymore in this thread.

All the best.

Axehead
Not my intent either Axehead, but I don't want to make this about what English versions are preferred, but rather what the Greek is saying based on ALL English versions in play and the entirety of the NT. Of course the KJV is proper English, but is it the correct rendering of the intent of the Greek in regards to the OP. I personally don't think so.
justaname said:
In post #16 I show supporting Scripture of a new creation. This is given through the context of the verse, and supporting Scripture with the language "born again". If by being born again you feel you remain the old creation please give your supporting Scriptures and explain your view.

Your quote is, "If we were indeed NEW as you interpret it, we would not need to be exhorted to do good."
My response to that is, "Simply because we are spiritually made anew does not mean we will follow our new nature."
What I mean by this is because we are new does not facilitate the removal of the will or freedom of choice. In such we are exhorted to "walk in the Spirit" and "put to death the deeds of the body".

I do agree we are not yet as we will be, yet we are not as we once were. Look to this...

Were it not for the conditional and individual cast of the sentence (“if anyone”), we might readily find in the phrase καινὴ κτίσις a reference to a cosmic and ontological reality brought into existence by the Christ-event. As it is, the εἰ and the τις combine to give καινὴ κτίσις a personal reference relating to an individual’s faith-union with Christ. It would make no sense to render εἴ τις by “since anyone”; then “since everyone” would be εἰ πᾶς/πάντες. So the existence of the καινὴ κτίσις is conditional upon a person’s coming to be “in Christ.” Whether κτίσις here means “act of creating” or “creature” (= κτίσμα)/“being,” the focus is on divine agency (cf. v. 18a), be it the agency of Christ or (as is more probable) of God. Already in this letter Paul has depicted conversion as a creatorial act of God, comparable to the initial creation of light (4:6). Now, with the adjective καινή, he emphasizes the altered nature of the converted person or the newness of God’s creatorial action. The rendering “there is a new creation” (REB) reproduces the ambiguity of the Greek, which could mean “there is a newly-created being” (Thrall 400)/“he or she is a newly-created person” or “there is a new act of creation” (Barrett 162). Like the Johannine γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν (John 3:7) and the Petrine ἀναγεννηθῆναι (“to be born anew/again,” cf. 1 Pet. 1:3, 23), the Pauline καινὴ κτίσις refers to individual rebirth or regeneration (παλιγγενεσία, Tit. 3:5) as God’s sovereign and creatorial act. Yet it is true that the renewal of the individual in conversion prefigures the renewal of the cosmos at the end (cf. ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, Matt. 19:28; also Rom. 8:19–23) (Harris 166–71). If, then, the emphasis in v. 17a is anthropological and personal, not cosmological and eschatological, we may perhaps discover the background for Paul’s use here of καινὴ κτίσις, not in the Isaianic passages that describe the restoration of Israel and cosmic renewal when the new age dawns,62 but in the Jewish apocalyptic and rabbinic description of the sinner who repents or the Gentile who converts to Judaism as a “new creature” (beriyyâ ḥadāšâ).


The theology of the NT—or indeed Pauline theology—could be written around this theocentric concept of “newness” (καινότης, Rom. 6:4; 7:6), which is summed up in the statement, ἰδού καινὰ ποιῶ πάντα (Rev. 21:5; cf. Isa. 43:19, LXX), “See! I make everything new!”64 In the new era brought by Christ, there is the new wine of the new age (Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37–38), the new covenant (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8, 13; 9:15; 12:24), the new creation/creature (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), the new man/humanity (Eph. 2:15; 4:24; Col. 3:10), the new song of redemption (Rev. 5:9; 14:3), the new name for believers (Rev. 2:17; 3:12), and the new commandment of love (John 13:34; 1 John 2:8). In the consummated kingdom there will be the new wine of the heavenly banquet (Mark 14:25), a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1; cf. 2 Pet. 3:13), and a new Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12; 21:2).

Taken from: The New International Greek Testament Commentary: The Second Epistle to the Corinthians by Murray J. Harris

5:17. No one was more able to reflect on that transformation than Paul who switched from a persecutor of Christ to a proclaimer of Christ (Acts 9:5, 20–22). He was in Christ (a phrase Paul used repeatedly in his epistles to speak of a believer’s spiritual relationship to Christ) because he believed the message of the gospel and was identified by faith with Christ (2 Cor. 5:14–15; cf. Rom. 6:3–4; Gal. 2:20; 6:14). To be in Christ is to be a new creation (cf. Gal. 6:15). This new creation is brought about by the Holy Spirit, the Agent of regeneration (Titus 3:5) and the Giver of divine birth (John 3:3, 6–8). God’s new creative work, begun in each one who believes in Christ, will one day be consummated on a universal scale (Rev. 21:4–5). The old life of slavery to self and sin has gone (2 Cor. 5:16; cf. Rom. 6:6–14; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9). The new life of devotion to Christ means that one has new attitudes and actions (cf. 2 Cor. 5:14–15; Rom. 6:4; Eph. 4:23–5:2).

Taken from: The Bible Knowledge Commentary
Which I addressed. Born again does NOT mean born anew, but it does, as Jesus shows, mean being born of water and spirit, not just flesh.
The New Covenant is what we are born into, NOT a new creature, obviously, because no one has ever been born again and said, "who am I, where am I"?
The Greek word for new connotes never having existed before, which the new covenant did not. We however did, so it does not refer to us as individuals, but us as a collective, "church/BOC, under the New Creation/Covenant.
I would prefer a link to your quote rather just a copy & paste out of context. Rev 21 is out of context as it refers to the NEW Heaven and earth, NOT the New Covenant. I understand Hariss' attempt at connecting all these verses, but they do NOT refer to the same issue. No doubt there was and is a newness in terms of refreshing/restoring, but NOT in terms of something never having existed before in terms of our spirit/soul.

Yes, Paul was changed in his heart but he was still the same Paul, with all his foibles and weaknesses which he readily admits to more than once in his writings. What was new for him was the direction he ended up taking, which can be said of all of us who do get saved. That is new, but WE are not.
We are regenerated, not generated. We still sin, just not habitually, and as life goes on, hopefully less and less.

IMO, Barnes commentary on the OP is well worth reading.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
Not my intent either Axehead, but I don't want to make this about what English versions are preferred, but rather what the Greek is saying based on ALL English versions in play and the entirety of the NT. Of course the KJV is proper English, but is it the correct rendering of the intent of the Greek in regards to the OP. I personally don't think so.


Which I addressed. Born again does NOT mean born anew, but it does, as Jesus shows, mean being born of water and spirit, not just flesh.
The New Covenant is what we are born into, NOT a new creature, obviously, because no one has ever been born again and said, "who am I, where am I"?
The Greek word for new connotes never having existed before, which the new covenant did not. We however did, so it does not refer to us as individuals, but us as a collective, "church/BOC, under the New Creation/Covenant.
I would prefer a link to your quote rather just a copy & paste out of context. Rev 21 is out of context as it refers to the NEW Heaven and earth, NOT the New Covenant. I understand Hariss' attempt at connecting all these verses, but they do NOT refer to the same issue. No doubt there was and is a newness in terms of refreshing/restoring, but NOT in terms of something never having existed before in terms of our spirit/soul.

Yes, Paul was changed in his heart but he was still the same Paul, with all his foibles and weaknesses which he readily admits to more than once in his writings. What was new for him was the direction he ended up taking, which can be said of all of us who do get saved. That is new, but WE are not.
We are regenerated, not generated. We still sin, just not habitually, and as life goes on, hopefully less and less.

IMO, Barnes commentary on the OP is well worth reading.
Sorry I can not provide a "link" to the quotes they are books from my personal library, this is why I cited the sources.

Again I disagree with your assessment that when we are born again we are not new, and Scripture seems to agree with me.

Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 6:3-4
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 2:4
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him


Easily the mountain of Scripture points to individuals being created anew...

New Self
Paul refers to the transformation that occurs at conversion as the creation of a new self. "Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator" ( Col 3:9-11 ). The Greek term for "new self, " neos anthropos [nevo"a [nqrwpo"], depicts an individual, male or female, who possesses a "new nature" or "new humanity." It characterizes a metamorphosis in conduct from a life of sin to one of righteousness and is equivalent in meaning to being born again. A parallel expression occurs in 2 Corinthians 5:17 where the individual is described as a "new creation."
The process of transformation into a new self is described by Paul in Ephesians 4:22-24 as involving three stages: (1) putting off the old self, which belongs to the former way of life; (2) being made new in the attitude of one's mind; and (3) putting on the new self. The words translated "put off" and "put on" in (1) and (3) are past tense in Greek, indicating a completed action (perhaps baptism). The word "made new" in (2) is present tense, indicating a continuing development of spiritual attitude.
In this process, the former self, which was given to the gratification of human desires, is put away (Col 3:8), stripped off like filthy clothes (v. 9). Baptism, unlike circumcision, which was the putting away of a mere piece of flesh, represented rather the stripping off of the whole body of flesh (v. 11). It s the entire former self that dies. Paul states in Romans that "our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin" (6:6).
Becoming a new person in Christ begins with the transformation of the mind. "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Rom 12:2). However, although the decision to become a Christian may be instantaneously made, the transformation of a sinful human body into one that exemplifies the conduct appropriate to the mind of the new self (righteousness and holiness, Eph 4:24) requires a lifetime of determination and discipline (Eph 4:22-5:21).

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/new-self.html
 
B

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Thankyou justaname for putting so eloquently in writing what I had in my mind. I couldn't agree more. I find it impossible to contemplate the damage caused to the Kingdom if all who enter are not a new creation, spiritually at conversion, physically at the resurrection. Stan seems to believe that so long as the sin of an indivdual is forgiven, the nature, with perhaps a few minor adjustments, can remain the same.
Sin to my mind is a fatal disease, death being the only cure.
How do you know that the form of belief and faith you cling to is actually curing the disease and not just the symptoms? Is that which you cherish as 'church', faith or whatever simply providing anti-inflammatory solutions to the consequences of sin, or is it dealing with the root cause - a very much alive and perfectly well 'self'.
Sin is a terminal disease for which there is only one sure remedy. This remedy must be taken daily, and in large doses. Sin is a rampant virulent poison that grows without restraint if given license, and destroys all whose paths it crosses. And the only remedy, the only cure, is death to self.
Anything else in the Christian life touches only the symptoms. The joy of fellowship, without death to self affects only that innate loneliness that comes from estrangement from God through sin. Any peace we may experience as a result of knowledge or even faith in the scriptures, without death to self, is merely a short-term appeasement to the conscience.
Death to self or the carnal nature or the flesh, must come before being born again. Death to self must come before baptism. Death to self must come before the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
How do we know that the faith/religion/Christianity we hold to is curing the disease? By the fruits that grow as a result of the characters we feed. If we are feeding the carnal nature, then the carnal nature is going to flourish and live, and the fruits of that nature will be manifest in sin, worldliness, and compromise.
If we are however putting to death the carnal nature through faith in the power of Christ, then we starve it. We refuse to feed that nature. We instead feed the spirit. And the fruit of the spirit will be found in holiness and righteousness expressed through love that is implanted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Mathew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Throughout the NT Jesus likened the kingdom of heaven to a seed. We, like the seed, must die, be buried, and be raised up into a new life. Death is the only remedy to sin.
There is a further aspect to this. Throughout Revelation we are promised great things if we would but 'overcome'. Jesus said to the Laodiceans that should we overcome, we will sit with Him on His throne, just as He overcame and sat down on His Father's throne. So that strongly implies to me that we are to overcome in the same precise way that Jesus did. How did Jesus overcome?
John was invited to see who had the right to open the seals of the book. Who had the power and authority to reveal the future? Who was He?
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Ahhh! A Lion!!! A ferocious Lion who by great strength and power has prevailed!!! Is that what John saw???
6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain
A Lamb!!! Yes, a Lamb as it had been slain. How did Jesus overcome? Through self sacrifice!!! And that my friends is how we are to overcome. Not by strength or power or force of arms, but by surrender! Complete self sacrificial surrender to God and our fellow man.
Revel.12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
We overcome by loving our enemies.
We overcome by praying for those who persecute us.
We overcome by feeding the hungry.
We overcome by clothing the naked.
We overcome by visiting those in prison.

My favourite chapter in the entire OT is Isaiah 58. He tells it like it is. We overcome...
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 ¶ Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

All the above cannot be accomplished without sacrificing self.
John 15:5

And we cannot hope to overcome as Christ did except we take up our own cross and follow Him. We cannot hope to overcome and share in His victory over sin, the devil, and the world, until we die to self and surrender to Him.

Romans 12:1
This is how we gain eternal life. By so identifying ourselves with Christ's death that we partake of the same.
Romans 6:1-7
Sin becomes anathema to us. The more we associate ourselves and integrate ourselves with the cross of Calvary, the more abhorrent sin becomes to us. Conversely, the more sacred and the more precious will the laws of God become, and the more joy we obtain in surrendered obedience to them.
Romans 6:8-14
We become instruments of righteousness by our self sacrificial surrendering to the grace and life that God will impart to us, and we become overcomers. This is the only way to eternal life. Only through partaking of Christ's death, and assimilating His life, can we have any hope for heaven.

This is the new birth. This is the recreation of a new person, albeit still housed in the same body, but having the hope of a new body at the resurrection. The person entering heaven, entering into the reality of God's kingdom, is a completely new person from that born into this world. He has to be, for any remnant of sin will endanger the entire universe. Sin, in any and every form, must be expunged from every person before he/she enters paradise. The new birth is the beginning of this process, and sanctification completes it.
 

Axehead

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Though we have have been regenerated and joined to the Lord as one spirit, we still live in the flesh and the flesh does not know the things of the spirit and the flesh cannot please God. Does not mean that the body of flesh is intrinsically bad or evil, it just means that the flesh wants the things of the flesh and will war against the spirit. Christians don't have 2 natures as the NIV introduced. We are not schizophrenic beings. We have been delivered from Satan as being our father.

John_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

We are no longer "of our father the devil", having been delivered and no longer have his spirit (some call it nature).

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Christians do not have the Spirit of God and the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience at the same time.

They have the Spirit of God and an unsanctified soul and they walk in the flesh that cannot please God, but the flesh now must be dominated and brought under control to the Spirit and the soul (mind, will, emotions) will be sanctified while one walks with the Lord down here on earth.

If, however you do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, then you are still a child of disobedience and your father is still the devil with his spirit working in you.

Axehead
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
Sorry I can not provide a "link" to the quotes they are books from my personal library, this is why I cited the sources.

Again I disagree with your assessment that when we are born again we are not new, and Scripture seems to agree with me.

Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 6:3-4
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 2:4
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him


Easily the mountain of Scripture points to individuals being created anew...

New Self
Paul refers to the transformation that occurs at conversion as the creation of a new self. "Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator" ( Col 3:9-11 ). The Greek term for "new self, " neos anthropos [nevo"a [nqrwpo"], depicts an individual, male or female, who possesses a "new nature" or "new humanity." It characterizes a metamorphosis in conduct from a life of sin to one of righteousness and is equivalent in meaning to being born again. A parallel expression occurs in 2 Corinthians 5:17 where the individual is described as a "new creation."
The process of transformation into a new self is described by Paul in Ephesians 4:22-24 as involving three stages: (1) putting off the old self, which belongs to the former way of life; (2) being made new in the attitude of one's mind; and (3) putting on the new self. The words translated "put off" and "put on" in (1) and (3) are past tense in Greek, indicating a completed action (perhaps baptism). The word "made new" in (2) is present tense, indicating a continuing development of spiritual attitude.
In this process, the former self, which was given to the gratification of human desires, is put away (Col 3:8), stripped off like filthy clothes (v. 9). Baptism, unlike circumcision, which was the putting away of a mere piece of flesh, represented rather the stripping off of the whole body of flesh (v. 11). It s the entire former self that dies. Paul states in Romans that "our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin" (6:6).
Becoming a new person in Christ begins with the transformation of the mind. "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Rom 12:2). However, although the decision to become a Christian may be instantaneously made, the transformation of a sinful human body into one that exemplifies the conduct appropriate to the mind of the new self (righteousness and holiness, Eph 4:24) requires a lifetime of determination and discipline (Eph 4:22-5:21).

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/new-self.html
Your preferred version agrees with you, but what does the actual Greek say?

Gal 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

1 Peter 1:23 (not sure how this is applicable)
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Rom 6:3-4(not sure how this is applicable)
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Ephesians 4:24
to become a new person. That new person is made to be like God—made to be truly good and holy.

Rom 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to each other. You have left your old sinful life and the things you did before. 10 You have begun to live the new life, in which you are being made new and are becoming like the One who made you. This new life brings you the true knowledge of God.

IMO these scriptures point to a new lifestyle, not a new or different person. We still die for our sins. We are still carnal and sinful. I don`t see how that is NEW the way you want us to see it.

I don`t agree with your cited commentary as we have already seen by other translations, this is NOT always the case. The NEW creation is the NEW covenant, NOT a new creature.

You prefer Baker and I prefer Barnes. It`s probably best if we can argue this ourselves and not get polluted with other opinions of those not here.
Axehead said:
Though we have have been regenerated and joined to the Lord as one spirit, we still live in the flesh and the flesh does not know the things of the spirit and the flesh cannot please God. Does not mean that the body of flesh is intrinsically bad or evil, it just means that the flesh wants the things of the flesh and will war against the spirit. Christians don't have 2 natures as the NIV introduced. We are not schizophrenic beings. We have been delivered from Satan as being our father.

John_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

We are no longer "of our father the devil", having been delivered and no longer have his spirit (some call it nature).

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Christians do not have the Spirit of God and the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience at the same time.

They have the Spirit of God and an unsanctified soul and they walk in the flesh that cannot please God, but the flesh now must be dominated and brought under control to the Spirit and the soul (mind, will, emotions) will be sanctified while one walks with the Lord down here on earth.

If, however you do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, then you are still a child of disobedience and your father is still the devil with his spirit working in you.

Axehead
Which is why we are required to be born again. This introduces God to our carnal nature, it doesn't make us schizophrenic. Until we have the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us we cannot make the right decisions regarding sin. The fact that we still sin means the old self is NOT obliterated. Paul was pretty clear when he wrote this in 1 Tim 1:15. He didn't say WAS, he said AM.

The issue of the OP is getting lost here. Being given spiritual righteousness through Jesus does not mean we are made NEW. ``There is none righteous``, means even after salvation we are not righteous, but have Jesus IN us as our righteousness. We alone have no righteousness. Faith is what we have, and that gives us strength to combat the devil and fight the good fight. If we don`t press on and endure we will fall away into apostasy. Doubt is always there but faith CAN conquer doubt, IF we endure.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
Your preferred version agrees with you, but what does the actual Greek say?

Gal 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

1 Peter 1:23 (not sure how this is applicable)
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Rom 6:3-4(not sure how this is applicable)
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Ephesians 4:24
to become a new person. That new person is made to be like God—made to be truly good and holy.

Rom 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to each other. You have left your old sinful life and the things you did before. 10 You have begun to live the new life, in which you are being made new and are becoming like the One who made you. This new life brings you the true knowledge of God.

IMO these scriptures point to a new lifestyle, not a new or different person. We still die for our sins. We are still carnal and sinful. I don`t see how that is NEW the way you want us to see it.

I don`t agree with your cited commentary as we have already seen by other translations, this is NOT always the case. The NEW creation is the NEW covenant, NOT a new creature.

You prefer Baker and I prefer Barnes. It`s probably best if we can argue this ourselves and not get polluted with other opinions of those not here.

Which is why we are required to be born again. This introduces God to our carnal nature, it doesn't make us schizophrenic. Until we have the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us we cannot make the right decisions regarding sin. The fact that we still sin means the old self is NOT obliterated. Paul was pretty clear when he wrote this in 1 Tim 1:15. He didn't say WAS, he said AM.

The issue of the OP is getting lost here. Being given spiritual righteousness through Jesus does not mean we are made NEW. ``There is none righteous``, means even after salvation we are not righteous, but have Jesus IN us as our righteousness. We alone have no righteousness. Faith is what we have, and that gives us strength to combat the devil and fight the good fight. If we don`t press on and endure we will fall away into apostasy. Doubt is always there but faith CAN conquer doubt, IF we endure.
It is the Scriptures that agree with me. Without question there is a new creature.

The 1Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Being born again changes us. We are no longer as we were with the perishable seed, yet now we are born of the Spirit, born of God, of the imperishable seed. We are no longer as we were.

Even your version of Ephesians 4:24 says "new person". You are no longer the old person, you are new! And thank God, for the old person was subject to wrath.

Here is another relevant Scripture...this is from the NIV
Ephesians 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace


We are no longer the same in Christ.
 

StanJ

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The whole purpose of the OP was to establish what the Greek actually conveys, as the different English translations differ. You seem to accept the NASB regardless of what the others convey so there's not much use in trying to show you the NASB is NOT consistent in that or other regards. Newness in Eph 2:15 is being refreshed, not a NEW creature as you seem to want it to convey, which it doesn't.
 

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StanJ said:
The whole purpose of the OP was to establish what the Greek actually conveys, as the different English translations differ. You seem to accept the NASB regardless of what the others convey so there's not much use in trying to show you the NASB is NOT consistent in that or other regards. Newness in Eph 2:15 is being refreshed, not a NEW creature as you seem to want it to convey, which it doesn't.
I agree, StanJ, Looking at Eph 2:15 I don't feel this can be compared to the OP. I cant put it much better than StanJ did.
 

justaname

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Stan as I have stated I look to the whole of Scripture to gain my understanding of the particular verse. We apparently disagree with our understandings.

As you have stated literal translations are not always practical. You seem to want a concrete English translation from an ambiguous Greek text. If the Greek was definitive in this regard then there would not be several translations...

I have already posted partially from this commentary, yet it technically deals with the Greek...hope this helps.

5:17 ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις· τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά· “So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the old order has passed away; see, a new order has begun.” The Vulgate, taking τις with κτίσις, reflects an alternative punctuation: “So if any new creature is in Christ, old things have passed away: look! everything has become new.” Héring, too, would place a comma after κτίσις and a period after παρῆλθεν. “If anyone is a new creature in Christ, then—for him—the old order has passed and a new world has arisen” (43). But this punctuation (1) converts a pungent aphorism into a trite truism; (2) destroys the symmetry of the four balanced elements; and (3) ill accords with the position of ἐν Χριστῷ.
Of the four units that comprise the verse, the first two are elliptical. We could supply (italics supplied):
(1) γίνεται … ἔστιν, “So, if anyone comes to be in Christ, there is a new creation” (Martin 135; similarly Moffatt);
(2) ἐστιν … ἔστω, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, let him be a new creature” (KJV mg);
(3) ἐστιν … ἔστιν, “So, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation” (Furnish 306);
(4) ἐστιν … ἐστιν, “Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation” (RSV, NIV).
Regarding (1), it is awkward to supply two different verbs, although the verb γίνομαι does occur in v. 17b; to supply γίνεται … γίνεται (“comes to be … comes into existence”) or even γέγονεν … γέγονεν (“has come to be … has come into existence”) would be easier. Against (2) is the observation that an exhortation is out of place in the midst of a series of Christian verities (vv. 14–19). Most translations and commentators supply ἐστιν … ἔστιν.
ὥστε states a second consequence of vv. 14–15, although some relate the consequence to v. 14 alone, or to vv. 15–16, or to v. 16. One result of Christ’s death and resurrection (vv. 14–15) is the possibility (cf. εἰ) of a καινὴ κτίσις. εἴ τις, “if anyone,” standing without qualification, must be all-embracing, excluding no one. It is equivalent to ὅστις (“whoever”) or πᾶς … ὃς ἄν, “everyone who” (cf. Rom. 10:12–13) and points to the eradication of any distinction between Jew and Gentile with regard to receiving God’s mercy and salvation. In status before God through Christ, and in accessibility to all the spiritual benefits that flow from that status, “there is neither Jew nor Greek” (Gal. 3:28; cf. Eph. 2:11–22; Col. 3:11). “The dividing wall that formed a barrier (τὸ μεσότοιχον τοῦ φραγμοῦ)” separating Jew and Gentile has been demolished in the person and work of Christ (Eph. 2:14).
The phrase ἐν Χριστῷ is so ubiquitous in Paul’s writings (over 160 uses) and the person of Christ so central that, not surprisingly, some scholars regard this as the central or unifying motif in Pauline theology.53 Of the main interpretations of the phrase—the local or “mystical,” the ecclesiological, the eschatological, the soteriological, the representative, and the personal—the approaches that accommodate the largest number of uses seem to be the personal and the ecclesiological. That is, “in Christ” often means “in personal union with the risen Christ” or “in the body of Christ” (= the church). Neither the individual nor the corporate dimension of the phrase should be ignored. In addition, we should not overlook the fact that the preposition ἐν in this phrase expresses (in different contexts) a wide range of ideas or relationships—incorporation (“in the person or body of Christ”), union (“in fellowship with/united to Christ”), sphere of reference (“in Christ” = “Christian”), agency (“through the work of Christ”), cause (“as a result of solidarity with Christ”), mode (“by being in Christ”), location (“centered/concentrated in Christ”), or basis (“on the authority of Christ”). In 5:17 ἐν Χριστῷ may be paraphrased “united in faith to the risen Christ.”
Were it not for the conditional and individual cast of the sentence (“if anyone”), we might readily find in the phrase καινὴ κτίσις a reference to a cosmic and ontological reality brought into existence by the Christ-event. As it is, the εἰ and the τις combine to give καινὴ κτίσις a personal reference relating to an individual’s faith-union with Christ. It would make no sense to render εἴ τις by “since anyone”; then “since everyone” would be εἰ πᾶς/πάντες. So the existence of the καινὴ κτίσις is conditional upon a person’s coming to be “in Christ.” Whether κτίσις here means “act of creating” or “creature” (= κτίσμα)/“being,” the focus is on divine agency (cf. v. 18a), be it the agency of Christ or (as is more probable) of God. Already in this letter Paul has depicted conversion as a creatorial act of God, comparable to the initial creation of light (4:6). Now, with the adjective καινή, he emphasizes the altered nature of the converted person or the newness of God’s creatorial action. The rendering “there is a new creation” (REB) reproduces the ambiguity of the Greek, which could mean “there is a newly-created being” (Thrall 400)/“he or she is a newly-created person” or “there is a new act of creation” (Barrett 162). Like the Johannine γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν (John 3:7) and the Petrine ἀναγεννηθῆναι (“to be born anew/again,” cf. 1 Pet. 1:3, 23), the Pauline καινὴ κτίσις refers to individual rebirth or regeneration (παλιγγενεσία, Tit. 3:5) as God’s sovereign and creatorial act. Yet it is true that the renewal of the individual in conversion prefigures the renewal of the cosmos at the end (cf. ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, Matt. 19:28; also Rom. 8:19–23) (Harris 166–71). If, then, the emphasis in v. 17a is anthropological and personal, not cosmological and eschatological, we may perhaps discover the background for Paul’s use here of καινὴ κτίσις, not in the Isaianic passages that describe the restoration of Israel and cosmic renewal when the new age dawns,62 but in the Jewish apocalyptic and rabbinic description of the sinner who repents or the Gentile who converts to Judaism as a “new creature” (beriyyâ ḥadāšâ).
The theology of the NT—or indeed Pauline theology—could be written around this theocentric concept of “newness” (καινότης, Rom. 6:4; 7:6), which is summed up in the statement, ἰδού καινὰ ποιῶ πάντα (Rev. 21:5; cf. Isa. 43:19, LXX), “See! I make everything new!”64 In the new era brought by Christ, there is the new wine of the new age (Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37–38), the new covenant (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8, 13; 9:15; 12:24), the new creation/creature (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), the new man/humanity (Eph. 2:15; 4:24; Col. 3:10), the new song of redemption (Rev. 5:9; 14:3), the new name for believers (Rev. 2:17; 3:12), and the new commandment of love (John 13:34; 1 John 2:8). In the consummated kingdom there will be the new wine of the heavenly banquet (Mark 14:25), a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1; cf. 2 Pet. 3:13), and a new Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12; 21:2).
Verse 17b, which is reminiscent of Isa. 44:18–19 in terminology (but not content), explains καινὴ κτίσις first negatively (τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν), then positively (ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά). Many translations indicate this relationship of v. 17b to v. 17a by placing a colon after “new creation/creature/being.” The change from the articular τὰ ἀρχαῖα to the anarthrous καινά may be represented in translation by “the old order” and “a new order” (NEB, REB), or, taking τά as possessive (cf. τις), “his old life” and “a new life” (NEB mg, REB, mg). The rendering “the old … the new” (NIV) presupposes τὰ καινά. τὰ ἀρχαῖα, “things of the past,” cannot refer to the cosmos, for its renovation or annihilation (or re-creation by purification) lies in the future (Rom. 8:21; cf. 2 Pet. 3:7, 10–13) and παρῆλθεν could not be a proleptic aorist. Rather, it refers to the whole set of conditions and relationships that marked believers in their unregenerate state when they behaved κατὰ σάρκα, that is, they were governed in thought and action by the desires of the σάρξ (cf. Rom. 8:2, 4; Eph. 2:3) and so were under the dominion of sin and death (cf. Rom. 8:2), and when they made value judgments κατὰ σάρκα (cf. 5:16), that is, assessed others by external and worldly standards. In parallelism with τὰ ἀρχαῖα, although placed last for emphasis, καινά is the subject of γέγονεν, not a predicate adjective with either τὰ ἀρχαῖα or τὰ πάντα understood. If καινά picks up the phrase καινὴ κτίσις, then εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ may be understood before ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά. That is, καινά, as well as εἴ τις and καινὴ κτίσις, refers principally to individual experience rather than to corporate or cosmic realities. When a person becomes a Christian, he or she experiences a total restructuring of life that alters its whole fabric—thinking, feeling, willing, and acting. Anyone who is “in Christ” is “Under New Management” and has “Altered Priorities Ahead,” to use the wording sometimes found in shop windows and (in Britain) on roads. And the particle ἰδού (“behold!” “see!”) functions like such a sign, stimulating attention; but here it conveys also a sense of excitement and triumph. Nor should we overlook the difference between the aorist παρῆλθεν and the perfect γέγονεν: one set of conditions and relationships has come to an end or passed out of existence; another brand new set has already begun or has come to stay. Here Paul is clearly emphasizing the radical discontinuity between the pre- and post-conversion states, but in other contexts he implies the coexistence or interpenetration of the present age and the age to come (e.g., 1 Cor. 10:11; Gal. 1:4) and speaks of the ongoing renewal of the believer (Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18; Col. 3:10). Nor could he ever forget that all of humankind was currently subject to the ravages of decay and death and that release from our bondage to mortality would come only with the resurrection (cf. Rom. 7:24; 8:19–23; 1 Cor. 15:42–44, 53–54; Phil. 3:20–21).
The relation of v. 17 to what precedes is significant. Christian conversion, that is, coming to be in Christ (v. 17a), produces dramatic change (v. 17b): life is no longer lived κατὰ σάρκα, but κατὰ πνεῦμα. Paul implies that a change of attitude toward Christ (v. 16b) brings about a change of attitude toward other people (v. 16a) and a change of conduct from self-pleasing to Christ-pleasing (vv. 9, 15), from egocentricity to theocentricity.

New International Greek Testament Commentary: The Second Epistle to the Corinthians by Murray J. Harris



This commentary speaks to the difficulty due to the language supplied in the Greek.

He is a new creation: the pronoun he may have to be made more explicit in some languages, since some readers may think it refers to Christ. In those cases translators may have to say “that person is a new being.” New creation is literally “new ktisis.” The Greek word ktisis nearly always means “creation” in Paul’s letters, rather than “creature”; “creature” would make it refer to an individual person. The Greek has no pronoun and no verb, so the verb phrase that translators supply (“he is” or “there is”) depends in part on the meaning of the noun ktisis. According to TEV and many other versions, the individual person “is a new being.” But according to Mft, AB, NJB, and NRSV, “there is a new creation,” meaning not just that the individual person has been made new but also that a new situation has been created. The majority of English versions, however, seem to prefer the individual interpretation reflected in RSV and TEV. Translators may choose to place the alternative translation in a footnote, as RSV does.

A Handbook on Paul's second Letter to the Corinthians by Omanson and Ellington

Here is another look at the text technically...

2 Corinthians 5:17

ὥστε (Root: ως + τε, LN: 89.52; conjunction, logical, inferential)
so then, therefore
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Inferential conjunction

εἴ (Root: ει, LN: 89.65; conjunction, adverbial, conditional)
if
Contained in: Subordinate Clause
Syntactic Force: Conditional subordinate clause
Words Implied by εἴ
• The syntactic structure implies that ἔστιν is necessary to be read in conjunction with εἴ.

τις (Root: τις, LN: 92.12; pronoun, indefinite, nominative, singular, masculine)
anyone
Contained in: Subordinate Clause
Syntactic Force: Indefinite pronoun functioning as Subject.

ἐν (Root: εν, LN: 89.119; preposition)
in
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of location
Words Implied by ἐν
• The syntactic structure implies that ἔστιν is necessary to be read in conjunction with ἐν.

Χριστῷ (Root: Χριστος, LN: 93.387; noun, dative, singular, masculine)
Christ
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Prepositional object

καινὴ (Root: καινος, LN: 67.115; adjective, nominative, singular, feminine)
new
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Attributive adjective
Words Modified by καινὴ
adjectival relation: The word καινὴ modifies κτίσις (noun) in 2Co 5:17, word 7 (κτίσις is within the current clausal unit, after καινὴ).

κτίσις (Root: κτιζω, LN: 42.35; noun, nominative, singular, feminine)
creation
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: This word may be read as either Subject or Predicate nominative.
Words That Modify κτίσις
adjectival relation: The word κτίσις is modified by καινὴ (adjective) in 2Co 5:17, word 6 (καινὴ is within the current clausal unit, before κτίσις).

τὰ (Root: ο, LN: 92.24; article, nominative, plural, neuter)
the
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Attributive article
Words Modified by τὰ
articular relation: The word τὰ modifies ἀρχαῖα (adjective) in 2Co 5:17, word 9 (ἀρχαῖα is within the current clausal unit, after τὰ).

ἀρχαῖα (Root: αρχω, LN: 67.98; adjective, nominative, plural, neuter)
old
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Substantival adjective functioning as Subject.
Words That Modify ἀρχαῖα
articular relation: The word ἀρχαῖα is modified by τὰ (article) in 2Co 5:17, word 8 (τὰ is within the current clausal unit, before ἀρχαῖα).

παρῆλθεν (Root: ερχομαι, LN: 13.93; verb, aorist, active, indicative, third person, singular)
to pass away
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Finite verb

ἰδοὺ (Root: ειδος, LN: 91.13; interjection)
behold
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Interjection

γέγονεν (Root: γινομαι, LN: 13.48; verb, perfect, active, indicative, third person, singular)
to come, to take place
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Finite verb

καινά (Root: καινος, LN: 67.115; adjective, nominative, plural, neuter)
new
Contained in: Segment Clause
Syntactic Force: Substantival adjective functioning as Subject.

The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, SBL Edition: Expansions and Annotations

Finally the New American Commentary

5:17 In this next verse Paul makes four crisp antithetical statements. They are launched by a condition, “If anyone is in Christ.” This phrase, “in Christ,” can mean several things that are not mutually exclusive: that one belongs to Christ, that one lives in the sphere of Christ’s power, that one is united with Christ, or that one is part of the body of Christ, the believing community. Paul’s assumption is that being in Christ should bring about a radical change in a person’s life.
The next statement is very terse and reads literally “new creation.” The subject and the verb must be supplied. Translations usually choose between two options: “he is” (NIV), implying that the person is a new being, or “there is” (NRSV), implying that a new situation has come into being. The pronoun “anyone” seems to imply that Paul has individuals in mind. In the context, he is talking about changing one’s way of looking at things; and this change, which occurs at conversion, is a subjective experience. Later rabbinic texts refer to proselytes becoming new creatures, and a similar idea may have been part of Paul’s thinking.
On the other hand, Paul also conceives that Christ’s death and resurrection marks a radical eschatological break between the old age and the new. Christ is the divider of history.”780 Paul also never uses the noun “creation” (ktisis) to refer to an individual person (see Rom 1:2, 25; 8:19–22, 39), and the concept of a new creation appears prominently in Jewish apocalyptic texts that picture the new age as inaugurating something far more sweeping than individual transformation—a new heaven and a new earth. The translation “there is a new creation” would mean that the new creation does not merely involve the personal transformation of individuals but encompasses the eschatological act of recreating humans and nature in Christ. It would also include the new community, which has done away with the artificial barriers of circumcision and uncircumcision (Gal 6:15–16; see Eph 2:14–16) as part of this new creation.
Christians see the world in a new way and become new when they are joined to Christ. Beasley-Murray comments: “United to the risen Lord, the believer participates in the new creation of which Christ is the fount and the life.” Translating the words literally, “new creation,” without inserting a pronoun would allow for both options since the eschatological reality of the new creation effected by Christ’s advent makes possible that subjective change in individuals who become new creations in Christ. Paul’s declaration is the corollary to his earlier affirmations that we are being transformed (3:16, 18; 4:16–17)—so much so that the believer becomes a new creation. The new heaven and new earth and the complete transformation of believers remain a future hope, but for Christians they are so certain to be fulfilled that their lives are controlled by this new reality that still awaits consummation. For individuals to become a part of this new creation, they must choose to be in Christ.
“The old has gone!” Again, this phrase can be interpreted to refer to the “old order” or to everything that controlled the individual’s pre-Christian existence. Both are true. The old order is passing off the stage (1 Cor 7:31). The individual’s whole being, value system, and behavior are also changed through conversion. We are dead to sin but alive to God in Christ (Rom 6:11). Denney writes of Paul: “The past was dead to him, as dead as Christ on his cross, all its ideas, all its hopes, all its ambitions were dead in Christ, he was another man in another universe.”
“The new has come!” Paul believes that the “new thing” that Isaiah foretold God would do has come to pass in Christ. It is greater than the exodus from Egypt (Exod 14–15) and greater than the deliverance from Babylon (Isa 48:18–19). God has now delivered us from the bondage of sin and led us back from the exile of our estrangement from God to a new reconciled relationship. The NIV omits the particle “behold” (idou) that prefaces this statement, probably because it sounds archaic, and inserts an exclamation mark at the end of the sentence instead. This word, however, “is ordinarily used by biblical writers to mark an unusual moment or deed” (cp. Rev 21:5, “Behold, I make all things new”). “Behold” also prefaces Paul’s interpretation of Isa 49:8 in 6:2: “Behold, now is the time of God’s favor, behold now is the day of salvation.” The important new thing is God’s reconciliation that enables us to become the righteousness of God (5:21) and brings us salvation (6:2). This new thing not only begets new values, it also begets new behavior (1 Cor 6:9–11).


Really long cut and paste post I know, but my attempt is to be helpful, not confrontational. Sorry if I was coming off that way in my previous posts.

God Bless!
 

StanJ

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Justaname,

This is indeed one of the issues when referring to the original Greek. The fact is that of the over 6500 Greek manuscripts we have today, they agree almost 100% of time, I think it's 98. something, so it is indeed not the fault of the Greek, IMO.
It is, I feel, the fault of translation theory and how some scholars feel they must support their existing POV while translating. They don't get to where they are in a vacuum, and consequently they can be influenced by their teachers, mentors or peers. My intent here, is to cause US to think it through, not look for commentaries to support our points of view.
The following article may be of help in putting this issue into perspective. I just downloaded it recently.
http://www.thenivbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/We-Still-Dont-Get-It.pdf

As for the cut & paste job, probably the link would have been less onerous, but I understand. I just feel that commentaries about how others, who have probably the same if not better degrees than those commenting, arrived at their POV. That also depends on what their particular experiences have been as relates to translating Greek. One issue that some don't have exposure to is linguistic databases. The article by Dr. Moo above, makes some good points in this regard. Linguistics come into play big time when translating for our current English vernacular.

BTW, I did NOT feel you were being confrontational. As a person who debates a lot on forums like this one, I have a thick skin and feel we need to be able to get our point across without worrying about unintentionally hurting other's feelings.

Blessings to you.
 

7angels

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StanJ said:
There is a difference in opinion as to how 2 Cor 5:17 is properly rendered in English. What are your thoughts?
The following link shows five modern versions rendering that verse. They don't all say the same thing.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...ASB;NIV;MOUNCE
this is a good question. what i have found this verse to mean is that we are new creatures in Christ or to put it more simply is to say that we have now been given God's nature. this can also be referred to as our spirit man is now no longer confined by our sin nature. thus we have access to the power of God. where before our being accepted by Christ we were ruled by sin. just because we are new creatures in Christ does not mean we are perfect but that we now have the power to change because of Christ. here are a few verses that support my explanation.

eph 2:15, 4:24, col 3:10

God bless
 

Born_Again

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Here is my take on 2 Corinthians 5:17...

We are, in fact, a new creation upon being saved... Why? From experience, and I have that btw, when you are truly born again you are a new being, creature, or what have you in Christ. You see the world in a different perspective. You take off the rose colored glasses, the earthly blinders if you will. You are filled with compassion and mercy. The Holy Spirit gives you the gift to see the world as Christ does. Yes, you are still a sinner and we will always be working on that but you have more awareness of what you are doing and the ability or want to sin lessens greatly. You have more accountability for your actions and for your soul. You can easily let go of the things of this world. These things no longer bring fulfillment as the only way to be full or "whole" if you will, if through Him.

You stand out among others in this world. You are the an earthly example of the "light". You want to live for Him. You know His blessings, you hear Him speak, and you follow His will for you. After the things I have seen Him do in my life, I do feel like a new creation! I will never go back to this world and it's bondage. You are free from the chains of this world. At this point, you are waiting on Him, all the while serving Him until His glorious return!!! Praise His holy name!!!

BA out!
 

williemac

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As post #25 was given, (thanks to Justaname), The point I see is that whenever we have such questions and debates about language and the interpretation of a word or sentence, we do have a safeguard provided. In the real important issues, I have consistantly seen that one can varify the meaning of a text or word simply by first, examining the context, and second finding other places in scripture that can confirm or deny the conclusion one has drawn from a text.

We most definately have a new spirit man within us, one that was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24). Having been born again, not of corruptable but incorruptable seed. (The word "seed" is used in reproduction.) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2.Cor.4:7). Our body is an earthen vessel. The treasure is the new man. And to address what was shared by one individual...the new wineskin is the new man. The new wine is the Holy Spirit, Who dwells within the new man and brings us the presence of the Father and Son, along with His gifts and guarantee of our inheritance. It most assuredly speaks of a new creation in the individual and furthermore, we are told that He who has begun this work in us will complete it (in the resurrection). There can be no doubt that 2Cor.5:17 means the individual. No need to depend solely on grasping an old language.
 

AndyBern

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I'm not a Greek expert, but since the original words translate to "...if anyone in Christ new creation...", could it be understood as meaning "...if anyone is a new creation in Christ, old things are passed away..."?
 

Wormwood

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I think if we look at the overall context, it is difficult to see this as anything other than the new life which occurs due to faith in Christ.

“Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:11–21, ESV)
This entire context refers to the "ministry of reconciliation." Paul is talking about how he seeks to "persuade" people to be reconciled to God. Those who come to this realization of what God has done in Christ will no longer "live for themselves" because those for who Christ has died, have also died to themselves. Those, with this transformed perspective of life and the cross, no longer live for themselves because they no longer look at Christ and the cross in a natural way. Rather they see Christ as the one God used to reconcile the world to himself and the cross the means of removing trespasses.

So, in this context there is really no mention of the consummation of all things. Rather, this context seems to be specifically focused on the newness which takes place due to faith in the message Paul is preaching. This newness includes:
1. Focus on the heart and not outward appearance
2. Not living for self, but for Christ
3. Regarding people according to faith, not flesh
4. Seeing Christ as a means of God's reconciliation, not simply a man
5. Reconciliation with God and removal of trespasses

Thus, all these points seem to be pointing to the "newness" to which Paul is referring in this context. While certainly all things are made new at the consummation of this age, I don't see this to be the focus of this passage. Paul seems to explicitly be focusing on a change of perspective among those that accept his message with regards to how they view one another, how they view Christ, and how they relate to God.
 

KingJ

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I must be missing something but it seems to me that only one of the 4 interpretations is blurry.

ISV Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation.
CEB So then, if anyone is in Christ, that person is part of the new creation.
NASB Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature.
NIV Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come.

StanJ said:
Are WE as Christians a new creation or is it Christianity?
How do you get Christianity as an option from any of the translations? They all say ''If anyone is in Christ''.
 

Born_Again

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KingJ said:
I must be missing something but it seems to me that only one of the 4 interpretations is blurry.

ISV Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation.
CEB So then, if anyone is in Christ, that person is part of the new creation.
NASB Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature.
NIV Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come.


How do you get Christianity as an option from any of the translations? They all say ''If anyone is in Christ''.
Perhaps it has to do with BA Christians as a whole??A generalization, if you will? I don't really know. I'm an NIV reader, myself.