We must be born again to be God's kingdom.

(sigh)

This is why The Barrd has put ATP on her "ignore" list, Tom.
You are spinning your wheels, Bro!

KingJ said:

None of the above.

The message is for us to not have the cart before the horse. Unless you are born again you cannot keep the commandments. If you are born again you will keep the commandments. Not cart (keep the commandments) before horse (born again).

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I agree. Only those born again keep the commandments...This is the point I was making.

These are the commandments...believe Jesus is the Christ and love one another.

KingJ said:

None of the above.

The message is for us to not have the cart before the horse. Unless you are born again you cannot keep the commandments. If you are born again you will keep the commandments. Not cart (keep the commandments) before horse (born again).

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This isn't true. There are non-born again people who don't even know the law but actually avoid doing the bad things the law forbids and therefore live a moral life as the law intends:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves;
Rom 2:15 Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval;
Rom 2:16 In the day when God will be a judge of the secrets of men, as it says in the good news of which I am a preacher, through Jesus Christ.

KingJ said:

I wish I was here at the start of this thread. You all ignored the question of what exactly being born again involves.


Sancitifcation is not a process! Believing what exactly?... comes once...

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Sanctification is the process KingJ. What is sanctification? Believing that Jesus is your Lord and Savior only comes once King Rom 10:9-10.

ewq1938 said:

This isn't true. There are non-born again people who don't even know the law but actually avoid doing the bad things the law forbids and therefore live a moral life as the law intends:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves;
Rom 2:15 Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval;
Rom 2:16 In the day when God will be a judge of the secrets of men, as it says in the good news of which I am a preacher, through Jesus Christ.

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I will not dispute that. What we just need to acknowledge is that God scours the earth looking for these people after His heart. Someone who follows a law you would assume does so because they hate what is evil and want to cling to what is good. According to scripture that is genuine love Rom 12:9. Meaning these people are after God's heart. They are drawing near to God. James 4:8 is crystal clear that God will draw near to them.

So the ultimate truth is that if these people were truly Godfearing / desirous of hating what is evil / clinging to good laws as much as they could...God would find them and reveal Himself (Jesus) to them.

I heard a testimony once of how an ex Muslim Christian wins over fellow Muslims to Jesus. He says he simply challenges them to be better / more sincere / more caring / more devout god fearing people .

KingJ said:

I will not dispute that. What we just need to acknowledge is that God scours the earth looking for these people after His heart.

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Absolutely

ATP said:

Sanctification is the process KingJ. What is sanctification? Believing that Jesus is your Lord and Savior only comes once King Rom 10:9-10.

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Agreed. I was assuming you were saying a timely 'process' vs instant sanctification.

Where in the NT does it say the Spirit of the Lord does this after resurrection?

1 Sam 16:14 NIV Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

justaname said:

Only those born again keep the commandments...

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But, the reverse is not true.
Because the churches do not teach that they must do.

Zachary said:

But, the reverse is not true.
Because the churches do not teach that they must do.

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False. Just more lies from the antichrist spirit. The devil is really at work on this forum. I've never seen so much deception unfold so quickly. Wow. Following commandments is about rewards in heaven 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV. Good deeds will not get you into heaven. The blood of Jesus is your only hope. Are you born again Zach? John 3:3, 7, Rom 10:9-10.

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV

ATP said:

If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV

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This makes one think of the 'place / mansion Jesus is preparing for us too John 14:2-3. Is He destroying and relocate all day long?

Joyful said:

My comment:

In a nutshell, we are not born again unless we keep the commands of God through Jesus Christ.

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From our perspective that is all we can say, yes. But from God's persepctive not always. He judges hearts and minds at a level we can't.

Nobody can be born again / believe in Jesus unless the Holy Spirit is involved 1 Cor 12:3. The Holy Spirit is not fooled by anyone.

So I would knock those OSAS believers who think repeating magical lines gets you into heaven and then non OSAS for thinking God makes mistakes.

KingJ said:

So I would knock those OSAS believers who think repeating magical lines gets you into heaven and then non OSAS for thinking God makes mistakes.

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Believing gets you into heaven John 3:16.