aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Of course, genetics tells us that white skin is a mutation of black skin and no where in the Bible does it tell us that Ham’s offspring headed off to Afrca and Palestine with dark skin.....
A Biblical View of the Refugee Crisis
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Of course, genetics tells us that white skin is a mutation of black skin and no where in the Bible does it tell us that Ham’s offspring headed off to Afrca and Palestine with dark skin.....
Sure! Thing is: if I was blamed for victim blaming in one of my posts, I’d sit down and wonder how on earth I may have given that impression. Of course you don’t need that, because your interpretation of prophetic scripture is impeccable, including passages like these
"but the present refugee problem came about many years later and it was orchestrated by the Islamic world in its fight to prove that Allah is a strong god than the God of the Jews and to keep pressure on Israel. I am sure that if the constant attacks against Israel by the Islamic world were to cease that the help given to the refugees would increase. But the Islamic world does not want that. They want pressure on the rest of the world to eventually come up against Israel to destroy it. Something that is prophesised in Revelation 16:12-16." *cough*
Try to imagine how that sounds to an old Palestinian farmer, who lived peacefully side by side with his Jewish neigbours, until all these European and Russian Jews came and bulldozed his family's hundred's of year's old olive-orchard for the sake of an illegal settlement.
Yes, I’m aware of the “Table of Nations” and how your interpretation of this passage was once popular amongst slave-owners in the US.
Of course their interpretation was as bogus as that of others’ centuries before them who ascribed Noah’s curse to whichever population they deemed to be rightfully under their foot in their respective times and circumstances.
Personally I’d agree with this sermon, which points out that quite apparently the ancient Israelites had no special problem with black people:
“The Israelites definitely considered themselves to be God’s “chosen people,” but that had nothing to do with race. That had to do with God’s call of Abraham. The Israelites generally looked down on all other nations – and the nations that received the most criticism were their immediate neighbors, who would have looked pretty much like they did. The critical issue wasn’t race!” It also points out that maybe we should not pay too much heed to the ramblings of a drunk man (Noah) and turn to the New Testament instead:
“There’s Jesus, proclaiming his message not just to the Jews, but to anybody who will listen, including a Syrophoenician woman and a Roman centurion and a Samaritan woman and a whole bunch of others who weren’t “the chosen people.” In the book of Acts we meet a eunuch from Ethiopia, one of the most trusted servants of the wealthy Ethiopian queen, in charge of her whole treasury. He rides to Jerusalem in a chariot and is on his way back home, reading a scroll of the book of Isaiah, when God sends Philip over to this chariot. Go talk to that black man! Philip helps the man understand what he’s reading; Philip tells him about Jesus; they come across some water; the man asks, “What is to prevent me from being baptized?” (Acts 8:38) And the answer is – nothing! There’s no reason why a black man cannot be a full member of the household of God. Race doesn’t matter! If God wanted a world where only white people mattered, that story wouldn’t be in the Bible.
The fact of the matter is, the gospel of Jesus Christ is available to everybody, regardless of their ethnic origin or nationality. That was a tough sell back in the first century. Turns out that the “chosen people” weren’t quite so “chosen” after all. Or rather, that through Jesus Christ, everyone has the opportunity to become part of the “chosen people,” regardless of their race, nation, or skin color. In Jesus Christ, Jews are no better than Gentiles, and whites are no better than blacks. In Ephesians, Paul majestically explains to a bunch of Greeks that “you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ” (Ephesians 2:13), that “in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall” (Ephesians 2:14), that “through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father” (Ephesians 2:17-18); with the result that “you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God.” (Ephesians 2:17-20) Everybody who has faith in Christ is included in the kingdom of God; there are no distinctions; there is no race or people or nation that is superior to any other; the color of your skin does not determine your worth or dignity or value or place in the eyes of God. All those (very human) dividing walls that we set up against one another – they are all dismantled through Jesus. He died for ALL of humanity. Not just a piece of it.” (http://www.masonpresbyterian.org/uploads/4/7/9/7/47973649/2018-01-14_race_and_the_bible.pdf)
Indeed Acts 17 would not have been the first bit of scripture entering my mind when talking about refugees. But with what Platt wants to say – that the refugee crisis is a chance to bring people to Christ - it makes perfect sense to choose Paul’s speech in Athens. Remember, I’m mostly just reiterating Platt’s reasoning concerning the verse. And I’m still baffled that you should have a problem with his notion that it expresses God’s dominance both in heaven and on earth.
The reason I underlined earth, was that you just picked heaven out of this verse and neglected earth completely. In the Lord’s prayer we pray that God’s will is to be done on earth as it is on heaven. And Christians should strive to do His will right here and now.
Again: for the most part I’m just presenting Platt’s reasoning. I doubt he’s much into Moltmann, who’d be closer to me theologically concerning God being in charge of suffering. But both follow the very same classical theological viewpoint: God is almighty.
I’m baffled you see this as a straw man. Who is Lord in your mind, God or Satan? Are the two equal in strength? The Book of Job clearly tells us that Satan is subservient to God. You may find the idea that God lets people suffer scandalous, but the Bible is full of descriptions of God doing just that. I understand that we sometimes find it cruel that He should let suffering happen, but who are we to question God? There are two points that we can find comfort in though: Every suffering that God allows to happen happens for His purpose, which in the end is Good. And – more emphasized by Moltmann than by Platt – God is right there with those who suffer. All you have to do to understand that is to look at the cross.
You may not like the idea that every time we deny help to those in need, we deny help to Christ Himself, but that’s quite literally what this text says.
That’s exactly what Platt’s weaving and I’d agree. We’re faced with people in crisis, ready to be more malleable to God. We can show them what God is like by imitating our Lord and saviour and His self-sacrificing love, or we can be just as egoistical as is to be expected from most people and let the chance go past to bring these people the gospel by actually living our beliefs.
I’m baffled you see this as a straw man. Who is Lord in your mind, God or Satan? Are the two equal in strength? The Book of Job clearly tells us that Satan is subservient to God. You may find the idea that God lets people suffer scandalous, but the Bible is full of descriptions of God doing just that. I understand that we sometimes find it cruel that He should let suffering happen, but who are we to question God? There are two points that we can find comfort in though: Every suffering that God allows to happen happens for His purpose, which in the end is Good. And – more emphasized by Moltmann than by Platt – God is right there with those who suffer. All you have to do to understand that is to look at the cross.
You’re right, that question of mine was stupid, seeing that you already showed some contempt for the Nr.1 prooftext that comes to mind for that statement: Mt 25:31-46.
You may not like the idea that every time we deny help to those in need, we deny help to Christ Himself, but that’s quite literally what this text says.
That’s exactly what Platt’s weaving and I’d agree. We’re faced with people in crisis, ready to be more malleable to God. We can show them what God is like by imitating our Lord and saviour and His self-sacrificing love, or we can be just as egoistical as is to be expected from most people and let the chance go past to bring these people the gospel by actually living our beliefs.
I do indeed know zero about you. Yet, it’s rather telling that Christians all over the world, Catholics and Protestants, both conservative Christians and liberal Christians read the Bible as plainly telling us that we ought to take care of refugees. It’s only American Evangelicals who for the most part are blind to the Bible in this point. I do not believe that American Christians are in any way less capable of basic love and compassion than the rest of us. So it must be something else that keeps so many of them from understanding what God’s expressed will is in this matter.
When did it become fashionable in this forum to question other posters’ sincerity of faith just because they happen to hold different opinions?
However: Never forget that too much confidence easily leads to self-righteousness. Even the best Christians don’t always walk in the spirit of God. Not that this is much comfort to me when it comes to my own failings. I’m absolutely confident though that it is the right and Christian thing to do to reach out to refugees. There’s exactly one double-commandment that’s binding to Christians and under it there’s no other choice.
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If you had understood my post, you would have recognised the demonic attacks coming out of the Islamic world and who is pulling the strings that I was pointing to in my previous posts. Your response is all about your feelings and in this present age your feelings hold greater sway than the truth of the matter under consideration.
Have you considered the plight of refugees within their own land
within the Middle East
who, because they are "Christian," are being raped, interrogated, tortured, abused, bullied, starved etc. oh and do not forget they are being killed as well. They need our help as well but I am not hearing you speak in support of their needs and how we can go about helping them.
This topic is very complex and difficult to understand. We have to confront this issue where we live but we also have to be prepared to confront the issues where they are occurring in the middle eastern countries as well.
Having an understanding of the complexity of the problems helps us to approach the problem in the best manner.
Remember my little story in one of my previous posts where building a bridge was a far better solution that building a hostel or orphanage for the students.
Shalom
Was William Albright a slave owner? See visionviewpoint.com/blog/about/february-2-archeologist-william-albright concerning the Table of Nations.
Stranger
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Amen...it seems that these days of rantings in the media, is all to do with stirring up feeling....
Feelings seem to be winning over the wisdom of seeing what is behind it , jerking the strings...as for true...no one wants truth...
bbyrd009
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there is only one race viz the human race and God created it = these are all equally the children of God whom He will save as the saviour of the world where and when religions and skins and superior crowns are laid down - twinc
Jay, if you had an understanding of the complexity of the issue you wouldn’t throw words such as “demonic attacks coming out of the Islamic world” around. Instead you would be aware of the fact that most Christians who fled from the ISIS have been given refuge by majority Muslim countries. They are just as much affected by your governments policies towards refugees as Muslim refugees. Palestinian Christians have less to fear from their Muslim neighbours than from radical Jewish settlers. Christians in the Middle East just recently refused to welcome Vice-President Pence in protest of the US-American decision to move its embassy to Jerusalem, and Christians native to the Holy Land in particular actually fear the supposed ‘help’ of their American Evangelical brethren:
“"Many people here think that the pressure of the evangelical groups in the United States to which Pence belongs or is close to was behind the Jerusalem (decision)," said Bishop Munib Younan, former head of the protestant Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land. "Their apocalyptic scenarios and understanding of Jerusalem are very harmful for the cause of peace and justice in Jerusalem." “ (U.S. decision on Jerusalem looms large over Pence Middle East visit)
God’s wish for righteousness, peace and justice extends to all nations and all people. It is well possible to demand it for Muslims, Christians and Jews alike. All violence and oppression should be condemned, no matter which side it is coming from. I’m afraid your rather particular eschatology may well blind you to this.
Seeing that there’s one feeling in particular that seems to annoy you, may I give you the sisterly advice to remember what is the one great commandment Jesus gave us and to reread 1 Corinthians 13. You may want to top it up with 1 John 3:16-18 + 1 John 4:7-19. Having done that you may want to resort to the good old Christian virtue of critical self-reflection and ask yourself whether some of your posts and likes here are really ruled by wisdom and truth, or whether they are indeed ruled by rather unwholesome feelings of fear, prejudice and bigotry that don’t do the abovementioned passages any justice whatsoever.
I’m a little surprised you reference somebody who’s a proponent of the historical critical method, which most ‘Bible-believing’ Evangelicals shun. If you want to go down that way, you’ll be disappointed though: Albright is a little outdated. These days most of his colleagues will tell you that it’s most likely that the Israelites were indeed Canaanites to begin with and that Noah, while being a significant literary figure, never literally existed.
However, none of this is the point: those slave-owners interpretation of the Table of nations is just as silly as that of Josephus and others who tried to assign known people of their time to it. Once China rules the world I wouldn’t be surprised if some whacko Chinese Christians will label Northern Europeans as descendants of Ham. And that would be silly as well. So you may want to heed the warning in 1 Timothy 1:3-7.
What isn’t silly is to assume that we were indeed all made out of one blood.
By the way: You still haven’t answered what distinctions you think we should make between people based on race, when the Bible explicitly tells us that Jesus Christ could not care less about race? Care to Elaborate?
That Albright recognized the accuracy of the Table of Nations was my point. As I indicated earlier to you that even skeptics of the Bible recognize it. The point was to prove you were wrong in saying there was nothing of European, or African or Palestinian people in Genesis.
So, the Bible is silly? That is where the Table of Nations comes from.
And the Bible is clear that Ham settled in Africa. No blessing for him and a curse upon his posterity. But, that is just the Bible. I wouldn't worry over it to much.
I never said we were not all of the same blood. Why do you feel you need to repeat it? It doesn't prove anything that we are discussing.
I told you the blessings on Shem and Japheth and the lack of blessing and curse upon Ham. That should always be a distinction to be made.
Strange how that has worked out isn't it. Shem is blessed with being of the line of Israel which brings blessing to the whole world in Jesus Christ. Japheth as Europe and the northern white people have spread across all the earth and have been affected by Christianity the most...dwelling in the tents of Shem. And then you have your third world countries...not called third world for nothing...all trying to get to those blessed countries of Japheth. Those prophecies of Noah are still in place and working.
Stranger
It would seem that you have no idea about what I write and have a very anti government stance in your posts.
What you have written today exposes your understanding of scripture and brings into question the faith/religion you claim to profess. As such I am questioning your honesty in what you are writing.
Have a good day and be careful of the demonic forces that Paul wrote about.
Yes, 43min is long, but I find that listening to sermons or listening-books while you're at them makes boring tasks such as scrubbing floors and peeling potatoes much more enjoyable.
However, I see your point. So here’s my attempt at a summary:
In his opening words David Platt, President of the Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board, points to the enormity of the global refugee crisis as one of the greatest humanitarian crisis in modern history with 60 million people being displaced, put in danger or forced from their homes. Half the population of Syria have either been displaced or killed. He bemoans that most Christians in the USA are paying little or no attention to this crisis, and if they do it’s through the lense of political punditry. “If there is any response it seems to be coming from a foundation of fear rather than of faith, flowing from a view of the world that is far more American than it is Biblical,far more concerned with the preservation of this country than it is with the accomplishment of the great commission.” He says that the church cannot sit still and not stay silent and that we need to know how the Bible informs us how we view crisis like this in the world and then act accordingly:
He then goes to what he sees as five Biblical truth’s concerning the refugee crisis starting with
Point 1: Acts 17:24, which tells us that God created all mankind and that God reigns sovereign over all things. We can find comfort in knowing that the world is not run by various dictators or politicians and that – pointing to Job, the almighty God is even sovereign over suffering.
Point 2: God oversees the movement of all people and uses the scattering of people for his own purpose, to be sought and found by all people.
Point 3: God generally establishes government for the protection of all people (Romans 13). Thus government, particular representative governments such as ours, have the responsibility to promote good and restrain evil.
Point 4: God commands the church to provide for His people especially and to do good to everyone whenever the opportunity arises (Galatians 6:10). We are to love all our neighbours as ourselves and Christ is suffering with our brothers and sisters in crisis (Matthew 25:31-46), so we must not turn a dead ear to them.
Point 5: care for refugees is right and even required because of the character of God. “God seeks, shelters, serves and showers the refugee with his grace”. Book of Ruth – a Moabite woman - in which Boas mirrors God giving refuge: We are compelled to reflect our redeemer likewise.
Summary: The good news of the gospel is that God is not detached from our suffering and familiar with our pain. Christ Himself was a refugee. The greatest news is that Christ turned suffering into victory over sin to give us eternal life. Refugees need to hear this gospel, but they won’t unless we preach it. The refugee crisis gives us an unprecedented opportunity to do just that. We should go to refugees, hear their stories and meet their needs, both their material need and their need for the gospel. Sure there are risks involved in that, but referring to Matthew 16:24: “where in the world did we get the idea that Christianity is devoid of risk. Self is no longer our God, therefore safety is no longer our concern.” We ought to pray for Gods mercy “with our kids for kids like them, who sit in a boat right now or sleeping outside waiting at some Hungarian border” and act with mercy, justice and faithfulness (Mathew 23:23). Love even strangers sacrificially (Good Samaritan). We don’t want to sit idly by when God is calling us to act.
Good post, but as ya said there is a need for the gospel for most of these refugees, and the problem with the European, American, Canadian model is they let non-Christian religion influence them, and you end up seeing all this interfaith stuff, and even worse Christian politicians praying in Mosques, Hindu temples, etc. And that's where the world's refugee model goes wrong. All would be successful if governments and more people included the Gospel of Jesus, instead of ignoring him.
But ye we should have a good idea where Jesus stands on the refugee crisis, it would be "Open the doors, but pray for them in Jesus's name, tell them about Jesus, and treat them with love." And that's where nations need to get back too, if a big majority of a nation would turn to Jesus, a lot of a lot of problems would go.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
The thing is.....Jesus and Paul did not shy away from mixing with people of other religions. They knew who they were worshiping. It was the religious elite that looked down on them for doing so. Hw is this different from ‘interfaith stuff’? This is a serious question
Thank you for asking the question, because that's a major problem today among quite a number of "Christian leaders" today, and the interfaith is one of the reasons why especially Western Christians have lost a lot of ground.
The interfaith stuff, to take part and mix Jesus with Buddha is just wrong, the interfaith message teaches people to respect false gods and treat them as equal to Jesus, that there are many ways to heaven, that it's okay to serve more than one master, that it's okay to practice rituals of a false religion, that it's okay to pray to Jesus and Muhammad at the same time. Amazingly a few Christians think what wonderful unity this is, but it's not, that's a mixed up division hiding under a banner of false unity, it's highly divisive spiritually, you cannot be open minded to Jesus and satan at the same time, you cannot be open minded to the Holy Spirit and demonic spirits at the same time. Do you have any idea how dangerous interfaith is spiritually?
There is only one solid foundation & one God and that is Jesus Christ, as soon as Christians start respecting other false gods with demons hiding behind the false gods, what do you think happens?
I could go on with a long list of things if you want, but I will keep it simple, getting involved in the interfaith effects Christians spiritually and then physically, it can lead to all sorts of problems. I might get in trouble for saying this, but if anyone on this forum is involved in this sort of stuff, and if they got some problems in their life they can't defeat, get out from the interfaith stuff and ask for forgiveness from Jesus, if you are experiencing roadblocks from getting closer to Jesus, having doubts about the Living Word and you're involved in the interfaith, get out of the interfaith and repent.
Some probably won't like what I said, but I'm saying it because I care for all of you and I hope it actually helps someone in their spiritual life and spiritual growth in Christ.
“We must obey God rather than men.“ (Acts 5:29b)
The Bible is full of prophets criticizing their government. So does the Lady who’s applauding this post of yours. Whether her criticism serves God rather than men can of course be questioned.
What you have written here makes me question the honesty whith which you actually want to help Christians in the Middle East. Apparently you don’t even want to hear their opinion, because it interferes with your particular eschatology. So I suppose you think that those Middle Eastern Christians who wrote and signed the Kairos document should also be careful of those demonic forces you deem yourself immune to:
Kairos Document
bbyrd009
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i mean pls already lol, with that. just yikes
gee, i wonder why life is so scary for you Stranger
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bbyrd009
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