Saved By Fear?

bbyrd009 · Mar 31, 2018

Stranger said:
If His will were free He would have not went to the cross.

think not, huh.

c'mon S, this is worse than "the Bible is the Word" imo

saying Christ did not willingly go is to completely misunderstand, imo
i'm even kinda surprised at you

bbyrd009 · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
Always preach the gospel,
And when absolutely necessary,
Use words.

St. Francis of Assisi

a hero of mine, yeh

bbyrd009 · Mar 31, 2018

Stranger said:
The Man Jesus Christ submitted to the will of another. That is not 'free will'.

Stranger said:
submitted

no offense, but i don't think you even know what words mean, and/or you obv are not even listening to yourself.

lost your Observer, maybe

forrestcupp · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
The way you write confuses me. I like to be very clear.

So let's make what you believe and what I believe very clear since you're saying my answer is the same as Calvin's. May it never be!

Calvin:
God predestined, from the beginning of time who would be saved and who would not be saved -- and this not based on anything. He just picked some. So some are going to heaven and some are going to hell depending on what God decided way back when. Jesus died only for those who were already destined for heaven, He did not die for the whole world or for all men.

Me:
God foreknew who would be saved. He predestined these people to be saved through His Son Jesus Christ and to be made to be like Him. He predestined the method of salvation, not who would be saved. All men can choose to be saved or not. The Father draws ALL men to Himself and it's up to the person to choose if he will serve God and end up in heaven. God is a loving God and gives the same opportunity to all. There is no partiality with God...all men are the same to Him.

If you read carefully you'll find that the difference is akin to day and night,,,a loving God and a God who has no feelings for His created beings and that could easily send them to hell forever through no fault of their own.

Please don't tell me my words are the same as Calvin's.
BTW, they are not MY words, but the words of the New Testament. THIS is what the New Testament teaches.

I like to believe the bible and have trust in God,
not a man.

I've said it before, but Galatians 3 gives the answer to all of this. Jesus is the one who is predestined, and anyone who chooses to be in Christ is going where He is going.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
...
Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

So there you go. Scripture that shows that predestination and free will can work together.

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

forrestcupp said:
I've said it before, but Galatians 3 gives the answer to all of this. Jesus is the one who is predestined, and anyone who chooses to be in Christ is going where He is going.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
...
Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

So there you go. Scripture that shows that predestination and free will can work together.

Of course. As I said, what is predestined is the METHOD of salvation. God predestined this from the beginning, Genesis 3:15.
Those who choose to be saved, will be saved by the work completed by Christ.
I particularly like Galatians 3:26
We are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
It does not say that we are all sons of God because He chose us to be.
It depends on OUR faith in Christ. Again,,,
John 3:16 that whosoever believes shall not perish.

forrestcupp · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
Of course. As I said, what is predestined is the METHOD of salvation. God predestined this from the beginning, Genesis 3:15.
Those who choose to be saved, will be saved by the work completed by Christ.
I particularly like Galatians 3:26
We are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
It does not say that we are all sons of God because He chose us to be.
It depends on OUR faith in Christ. Again,,,
John 3:16 that whosoever believes shall not perish.

Then the argument would be that God is the one who gave us the faith, based on:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

But then the Bible says that God gave everyone a measure of faith that is enough to believe. So nobody can really brag about being one of the elite chosen ones, because God has given everyone enough to start off with.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Stranger · Mar 31, 2018

mjrhealth said:
Man you really are an odd one,

One thing I learned about God, is that there is nothing I can do or say or think that He doesnt already know about, before teh beginning of time He saw us having this stupid discussion over something that you are freely practicing, you will, that one God gave to all of us, to exercise freely our own choices.

If I didnt believe it I wouldn't Quote it. I quote what I know to be true, not just because it is in the bible, which is all you are doing.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

It is what revelation is all about. But men are too smart for God and dont need Him

You don't believe the Bible is the Word of God yet you quote it, and say I am an odd one.

In other words, just because it is in the Bible doesn't mean it is true, you say. Which means you determine what is true in the Bible and what is not.

You have told me before the Bible is not the Word of God. Did you change? If the Bible is not the Word of God and yet you are quoting what you believe is true from the Bible, it becomes nothing but the book of 'mjrhealth'. You just believe what you want.

Stranger

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

forrestcupp said:
Then the argument would be that God is the one who gave us the faith, based on:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

But then the Bible says that God gave everyone a measure of faith that is enough to believe. So nobody can really brag about being one of the elite chosen ones, because God has given everyone enough to start off with.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

For by God's grace you have been saved through Your faith...it is a Gift, not through works...
The famouse verse which led MLuther to understand that faith cannot be bought, as was being done at the time.

Rollo Tamasi · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
Since you wouldn't explain it, I thought I would.

If determinism* is true we are all essentially uncontrolled, noise-making puppets with our strings pulled mindlessly by the physical universe. Because we always remain part of the universe we can never cut our strings and step outside the universe in order to objectively evaluate anything, including our own words. We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.

Clearly then, Harris's thesis of determinism being true is self-defeating. If one asserts that there are valid, comprehensible reasons for believing that determinism is true, as Harris does, then in doing so he shows that determinism must necessarily be false.

source: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=17152&page=2

(Determinism:
God predestined and determines everything that will happen, we have nothing to do with it. )
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
determinism
dɪˈtəːmɪnɪz(ə)m/
noun
PHILOSOPHY

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

God's grace with Rollo Tamasi

Stranger · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
I can't explain free will again. I even posted some links which I doubt you've read or you wouldn't be asking me this again.

Of course God's will is different than our own. He's God. He can fly if He wants to, we cannot. But, again, this is NOT what biblical will is. It just pertains to choice of a moral type. We can choose to do good or to do evil, we could choose God or we could choose satan. Maybe the simplicity of it makes it be difficult.
Your will means WANT. What one wills, what one wants. God can will and want and He has the power to achieve it. We can will and want but we do not have the power to achieve it. We cannot fly even though we may will or want to. God can.

1 Corinthians 7:36-37
36But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.
37But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.

If you do a study on will, which you probably have but have ended up in incorrect theology, you find that we do have a will and that it is free to choose. Verse 37 above says that we have authority over our own will, even though it is affected by outside sources. If we have authority over it, it means that it is free. It's the free part that you cannot accept.

We are exhorted to follow the will of God, for instance in 2 Peter 4:2. We are told there how we should live a life pleasing to God. We have a free will to either live a life for God or live a life against God. Nowhere in scripture are we forced to live a life for God, but we are given the choice. If we are exhorted, we are being asked, if we are being ASKED it means we have a choice. If we had no choice there would be no point in asking.

See John 7:16-17
16So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Again, we hear JESUS saying that if anyone is willing..
To be willing means you can choose to do something or choose not to do something. If we can choose, then our will must be free.

If we do not have free will, God has created a stage of performers which He controls. Do you think this is what God wanted when He created us?

Do you think God needs US to glorify Himself? What kind of a God sends some people to hell purposefully so He could glorify Himself to the ones that are going to heaven?

I repeat, Calvinism cannot be correct because it changes the nature of God.

Exactly. God's will is different than our own. And what is the difference? He has free will. We do not.

Our will does not necessarily mean 'want'. It can, but it doesn't always. Let's say someone kidnaps you and your two children. They decide to kill one of your children. They make you choose which one. If you don't choose in 10 seconds, they will kill both. What is your will? It is not a question of 'want'. It is a question of being in position beyond your control and things bear upon your will and force you to come to a decision. Just because you have a will doesn't mean it is free. God is never in that situation. His will is free. Nothing bears upon His will. Nothing forces His will in any way.

Just because we can choose doesn't mean our will is free. It means we have a will. Of course we have a will, and God expects us to use that will. (2 Thess. 2:13) But because it is affected by outside forces, then our will is not free.

You say if we do not have free will then God has created a stage that He controls. Well, doesn't He? Do you believe God is not in control of the stage? (Rom. 9:20-22) "Nay but,O man,who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."

The wrath of God against the vessels of dishonour bring glory to God just as the mercy of God towards the vessels of honour bring glory to Him.

Stranger

Rollo Tamasi · Mar 31, 2018

Here's how it is.
You will never convince me otherwise.
I suffered as a child and as my mother rocked me in the chair, she told me about Jesus and God and how everything would be wonderful.
I said, "Ma, I want to be with God now, I don't want to suffer anymore"
I remember continually asking God to take me away from my suffering.
Was I saved?
I believe so.
God knew I would be saved.
He safely led me through a life of hell until at age 34 I cried out to Jesus and had a born again experience.
Is that predestination?
Is that being chosen?
You bet I believe that!

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

Rollo Tamasi said:
God's grace with Rollo Tamasi

LOL
Do you speak out of both sides of your mouth?
That's one strange looking bird!

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

Rollo Tamasi said:
Here's how it is.
You will never convince me otherwise.
I suffered as a child and as my mother rocked me in the chair, she told me about Jesus and God and how everything would be wonderful.
I said, "Ma, I want to be with God now, I don't want to suffer anymore"
I remember continually asking God to take me away from my suffering.
Was I saved?
I believe so.
God knew I would be saved.
He safely led me through a life of hell until at age 34 I cried out to Jesus and had a born again experience.
Is that predestination?
Is that being chosen?
You bet I believe that!

What you have just stated mean s that you believe God predestines some for heaven and God predestines some for hell.

Is this what you believe?

Rollo Tamasi · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
LOL
Do you speak out of both sides of your mouth?
That's one strange looking bird!

that's determinism

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

Stranger said:
Exactly. God's will is different than our own. And what is the difference? He has free will. We do not.

Our will does not necessarily mean 'want'. It can, but it doesn't always. Let's say someone kidnaps you and your two children. They decide to kill one of your children. They make you choose which one. If you don't choose in 10 seconds, they will kill both. What is your will? It is not a question of 'want'. It is a question of being in position beyond your control and things bear upon your will and force you to come to a decision. Just because you have a will doesn't mean it is free. God is never in that situation. His will is free. Nothing bears upon His will. Nothing forces His will in any way.

Just because we can choose doesn't mean our will is free. It means we have a will. Of course we have a will, and God expects us to use that will. (2 Thess. 2:13) But because it is affected by outside forces, then our will is not free.

You say if we do not have free will then God has created a stage that He controls. Well, doesn't He? Do you believe God is not in control of the stage? (Rom. 9:20-22) "Nay but,O man,who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."

The wrath of God against the vessels of dishonour bring glory to God just as the mercy of God towards the vessels of honour bring glory to Him.

Stranger

Read. But this has to wait till Monday.
Happy Easter!

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

Rollo Tamasi said:
that's determinism

He has a funny name!!

Rollo Tamasi · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
What you have just stated mean s that you believe God predestines some for heaven and God predestines some for hell.

Is this what you believe?

I didn't say that.
I said I believed I got saved as a very young child and God knew that would happen and saved me until I made a commitment to him.
He interferred with my life.
I had many close death experiences.

Rollo Tamasi · Mar 31, 2018

GodsGrace said:
He has a funny name!!

you saying rollo tamasi is a funny name?
we ruled part of Italy for several hundred years

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

Rollo Tamasi said:
I didn't say that.
I said I believed I got saved as a very young child and God knew that would happen and saved me until I made a commitment to him.
He interferred with my life.
I had many close death experiences.

This is different.
If you say God "predestined" you, it means He predestines for some to be saved and not the others.
I know you believe in the free will to choose God, so you can't believe that you were predestined.

One day you realized that God's grace was upon you, as it falls on everyone.
And you chose to trust in Him.

GodsGrace · Mar 31, 2018

Rollo Tamasi said:
you saying rollo tamasi is a funny name?
we ruled part of Italy for several hundred years

Oh yeah?
I don't remember any King Tamasi running around.

Actually, I thought Determinism was a funny name.

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