Eternal Security

BreadOfLife said:

Epidnosis is the word used in these passages. It implies a full and experiential knowledge of Christ - not just a simple knowledge (gnosis, oida) of the intellect.

Epignosis illustrates a person who has a deep relationship with someone. Some Protestant encyclopedias even go so far as to define it as "True Faith".

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Thanks BoL.
I believe experiential is the key word.
We can know ABOUT books, but until we hold one we don't really understand what it is.

It's important to understand this word.
The greek word KNOW as is used in the bible would be epignosis.

And why gnosticism is not Christianly...because mere knowledge does not save, as the gnostics believed.

Thus 2 Peter 2:20-22 is certainly speaking of those that KNEW the Lord...
Epignosis.

Enoch111 said:

Not necessarily. It means that those who have received Christ have no reason or desire to walk away from the blessings of God and Christ. Would anyone who has been rescued from a cesspool, and been washed and cleansed, want to dive right back into it and the stink?

And in any event they cannot be "unborn" as children of God, but they will be chastised if they get out of line. But their wills are ideally surrendered to God and Christ, since that is what genuine repentance is all about. If not, they were never truly saved, but simply made a profession of being saved.

We should always keep in mind that Satan loves to promote the idea that Christians -- genuine children of God -- can lose their salvation, or that salvation is not a free gift of God's grace. He hates the idea that there are millions who have been saved by grace, and not of themselves, since he knows his final destination is Hell. Hence he does everything to confuse and deceive people into such preposterous ideas.

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Do you believe a person who's come to God can choose to leave? Do they have that ability.

GodsGrace said:

Where in the N.T. do we ready about how we will never lose our salvation, no matter what?

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ROMANS 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can beagainst us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Only unbelief will deny what God has said. And we do have a lot of unbelief among Christians.

Jane_Doe22 said:

Do you believe a person who's come to God can choose to leave? Do they have that ability.

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Short Answer" NO. Ability is not the issue. Inclination is the issue.

GodsGrace said:

Why do you ask this?

Yes. Because after we die we go to be where we'll be spending eternity.
If we have the life of Jesus in us, we go to be with Him,
If we've been serving the enemy, we go to be with him.
John 3:16

We will not have a will in heaven. Our will will be perfectly aligned with God.
We will no longer have the choice of good or evil...but only of good.

OK. So I bit.
Now tell me what I bit into.

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Well, do you have the life of Jesus in you now?

So, we will be robots in Heaven. Without a will. You can't say 'our will' and then say 'we will not have a will'. It is one or the other.

Stranger

GodsGrace said:

What is epignosis?

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It is BreadOfLife's way of getting you lost again. You'll like it.

Stranger

Enoch111 said:

ROMANS 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can beagainst us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Only unbelief will deny what God has said. And we do have a lot of unbelief among Christians.

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I agree with all of the above.
Verse 37
Whom does Good love?
Those who love and worship Him.
Is it possible for someone to stop loving God because he had lost his faith due to tribulation, deaths, sickness, etc. And no longer believes in this God who has disappointed him so often?

And what can separate us from God but ourselves....nothing.

Stranger said:

It is BreadOfLife's way of getting you lost again. You'll like it.

Stranger

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LOL
I agree with him. I think you do too.

Stranger said:

Well, do you have the life of Jesus in you now?

So, we will be robots in Heaven. Without a will. You can't say 'our will' and then say 'we will not have a will'. It is one or the other.

Stranger

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You know I don't believe in eternal security...
Right now I have the life of Jesus in me.
I can't imagine why I'd let go of it. (Just like my friend tells me)

We're still on Earth Stranger.
I know that the Kingdom starts here...
But this ain't heaven!

In heaven there'll be only good...no more choices to make.
What do you believe?

GodsGrace said:

You know I don't believe in eternal security...
Right now I have the life of Jesus in me.
I can't imagine why I'd let go of it. (Just like my friend tells me)

We're still on Earth Stranger.
I know that the Kingdom starts here...
But this ain't heaven!

In heaven there'll be only good...no more choices to make.
What do you believe?

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You didn't answer my question's about the 'will'. You seem to indicate there is no need for our will. No 'choices' means 'no will'. As I said, 'robot'. Is that what God wants?

I wonder why God made man with a will, if He didn't want man to use it. Why didn't He make Adam without a will if no will was His goal?

What you are saying is that when we get to Heaven we have no will. The reason you must say this is because you know if man has a will, he might choose differently than God. Then what? ie, Adam and Eve.

By the way, did you ever answer my question concerning 'imputation'?

Stranger

Stranger said:

You didn't answer my question's about the 'will'. You seem to indicate there is no need for our will. No 'choices' means 'no will'. As I said, 'robot'. Is that what God wants?

I wonder why God made man with a will, if He didn't want man to use it. Why didn't He make Adam without a will if no will was His goal?

What you are saying is that when we get to Heaven we have no will. The reason you must say this is because you know if man has a will, he might choose differently than God. Then what? ie, Adam and Eve.

By the way, did you ever answer my question concerning 'imputation'?

Stranger

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Been busy stranger. I can't remember.
Re imputation...I don't read that God imputes the sins of others to our account.
I do see the effects of others sins.
We suffer the effects of Adams sin, but we're not personally responsible for it.
It's 11.30 pm here and I'm getting a little tired maybe...I don't understand your question on free will.
Could you rephrase?

GodsGrace said:

Been busy stranger. I can't remember.
Re imputation...I don't read that God imputes the sins of others to our account.
I do see the effects of others sins.
We suffer the effects of Adams sin, but we're not personally responsible for it.
It's 11.30 pm here and I'm getting a little tired maybe...I don't understand your question on free will.
Could you rephrase?

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That's fine. I don't want to derail the subject.

It is 4:30 pm here. So, you are a brave soul. Perhaps wait till tomorrow to answer. I don't know how to make it clearer.

Stranger

Rollo Tamasi said:

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

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bbyrd009 said:

@brakelite yikes, huh?

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but i still agree with your premise in spirit, btw. This is a perspective, but we tend to read facts. For instance, the same could be said of anyone who has children, right; one knows beforehand that children are disobedient, if a baby had the same abilities as an adult they would be monsters, etc, yet we have them anyway. We "bind them over to" yadayada, and then have mercy on them

Stranger said:

You didn't answer my question's about the 'will'. You seem to indicate there is no need for our will. No 'choices' means 'no will'. As I said, 'robot'. Is that what God wants?

I wonder why God made man with a will, if He didn't want man to use it. Why didn't He make Adam without a will if no will was His goal?

What you are saying is that when we get to Heaven we have no will. The reason you must say this is because you know if man has a will, he might choose differently than God. Then what? ie, Adam and Eve.

By the way, did you ever answer my question concerning 'imputation'?

Stranger

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11 am!

God does not want robots. This is precisely why He gave us free will to either choose to eat the forbidden fruit or not. Adam made a free will choice to eat it.

While we are here, we can choose, morally, what we want to do. We have moral free will. We can choose the good or we can choose the bad. Our whole life is made up of this type of choosing.

Heaven, OTOH, consists only of GOOD. There is only the Tree of Life. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the Garden...it will not be in heaven.
In that case, there is no possibility of being able to choose evil/bad. Revelation 21:27 --- nothing unclean will enter into heaven.

So does this mean we will have no will? Many aspects of our soul will be different in heaven. We will have a will - a desire to do this or that, which is a function of the soul and the will of man is in the soul --- but we will not have moral free will since our Will will be perfectly aligned with God's and He is all-good and nothing evil is in heaven.

By "if no will was His goal"...surely you don't mean all the way to heaven?
God wanted us to have a free will....but heaven will be different.

Do you not agree?

Enoch111 said:

Short Answer" NO. Ability is not the issue. Inclination is the issue.

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If a person does not have the ability to forsake God, it means he has lost his free will.

Is this what you believe?

And what is inclination?? It's neither here nor there.
Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no.
He said we should not be lukewarm...
Mathew 5:37
Revelation 3:16

GodsGrace said:

11 am!

God does not want robots. This is precisely why He gave us free will to either choose to eat the forbidden fruit or not. Adam made a free will choice to eat it.

While we are here, we can choose, morally, what we want to do. We have moral free will. We can choose the good or we can choose the bad. Our whole life is made up of this type of choosing.

Heaven, OTOH, consists only of GOOD. There is only the Tree of Life. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the Garden...it will not be in heaven.
In that case, there is no possibility of being able to choose evil/bad. Revelation 21:27 --- nothing unclean will enter into heaven.

So does this mean we will have no will? Many aspects of our soul will be different in heaven. We will have a will - a desire to do this or that, which is a function of the soul and the will of man is in the soul --- but we will not have moral free will since our Will will be perfectly aligned with God's and He is all-good and nothing evil is in heaven.

By "if no will was His goal"...surely you don't mean all the way to heaven?
God wanted us to have a free will....but heaven will be different.

Do you not agree?

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I agree that God does not want robots. And much of what I say concerning the 'will' is me thinking out loud. It is a complicated issue to me and I doubt will be understood completely down here.

The point of my questions goes back to 'eternal security'. Will we have eternal security in Heaven? The obvious answer is yes, we will. But why? What has God provided for us that gives us eternal security there but not here, as you say, as believers? You say it is because you have the life of Jesus in you. True. But you have that now. Thus it is not the life of Jesus in you that secures your salvation...you say.

Your emphasis is on your 'will'. What you decide. Thus you said in #207 that you agree with (Rom. 8:28-39). Then you added 'but'. But what? 'Ourselves' you say. Once you added the 'but' there, you changed all that Paul was saying. He says 'nothing', you say 'but'.

Because your emphasis is on your 'will', then your eternal security in Heaven must also take that into consideration. Therefore your solution is to remove anything bad so that man cannot make the choice. No choice to make. All is good. But removing the visible tree of the knowledge of good and evil, does not remove man's will.

satan willed wrongfully in heaven before there was any sin in the universe. And many angels willed with him. Adam and Eve willed being perfect, and without sin. Neither satan and his angels or Adam and Eve were secure in Heaven or in paradise because they had a will. So, what secures you and I in Heaven?

My position is that it is our 'faith', which was exercised down here on Earth at a specific point and time. Because of that, and the grand work of salvation that was created by God, we are forever declared righteous 'in Christ'. Note I said 'declared' righteous. Not righteous of ourselves.

Here I believe that faith trumps the will. Faith precedes the will. The will is certainly involved but it follows our faith. We do not chose to believe. We believe and chose. And our faith comes from God alone.

So the very things that secure us eternally in Heaven have been accomplished here on our part. Our faith, which comes from God, causes God to move on our behalf and places us in Jesus Christ. That secures us not only here and now, but in Heaven also.

Stranger

What do people think about this statement of Jesus ...

Mat. 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

It would seem that we indeed retain free will....and can be gravely out of line in the next age as well.

GodsGrace said:

If a person does not have the ability to forsake God, it means he has lost his free will.

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No he has NOT lost his free will but he has surrendered his will to God, as Christ did -- "not my will but thine be done" and as Paul said "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do". This is so basic that it should not even be coming up.

Enoch111 said:

Short Answer" NO.

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Hence my original statement: OSAS is dependent on a saved person not having free will.

Enoch111 said:

No he has NOT lost his free will but he has surrendered his will to God

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And has no choice to get it back. It is gone. He has zero choice.

Enoch111 said:

as Christ did -- "not my will but thine be done" and as Paul said "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do".

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Christ ALWAYS had/has free will. EVERYTHING He did/does he does willingly-- he ALWAYS has a choice, and is NEVER forced. He always has a choice, always has the ability to say "no" (even though he always chooses to say "yes"). Free will is never removed in Christ, hence a person always has the option to say "no".

Jane_Doe22 said:

Free will is never removed in Christ, hence a person always has the option to say "no".

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Hope you're happy with that conclusion. So let's move on.