"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

B

brakelite

Guest
Since the whole Bible is from God, there are literally hundreds of Scriptures from Jesus which reveal that Christ will set up His literal, real, physical, glorious Kingdom on earth.....
This is so much to look forward to and I agree, there are many proofs that this will be so, and our part within that kingdom....the meek shall inherit the earth, etc.

.....after His second coming
This is debatable, and is only an assumption. I know you mean by this that Christ establishes His kingdom immediately upon His appearing. However, I have some serious concerns regarding this idea, apart from it being only assumed, and not specifically supported by scripture, and for good reason: first and foremost because the state of the earth after Jesus does come, taking many scriptures into account, does not support in any way whatsoever the possibility of life on the planet after the global desolations of the disasters...the wars...and the ensuing plagues that devastate the earth immediately before Jesus comes to take His people away. Yet we are led to believe that Jesus takes everyone to Israel where it is believed the most horrendous of wars against Jews had just been taking place, the actual epicenter of the just completed world war with the stench of millions of rotting corpses...nuclear fallout...chemical residues...
Add to that the scriptural evidence that everything and everyone on the planet after the second resurrection at the end of the millennium, except for those inside the recently descended holy city, will be utterly and completely destroyed. All that work and effort to make the planet habitable after the second coming and God is going to destroy everything anyway?
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is debatable, and is only an assumption. I know you mean by this that Christ establishes His kingdom immediately upon His appearing. However, I have some serious concerns regarding this idea, apart from it being only assumed, and not specifically supported by scripture, and for good reason: first and foremost because the state of the earth after Jesus does come, taking many scriptures into account, does not support in any way whatsoever the possibility of life on the planet after the global desolations of the disasters...the wars...and the ensuing plagues that devastate the earth immediately before Jesus comes to take His people away. Yet we are led to believe that Jesus takes everyone to Israel where it is believed the most horrendous of wars against Jews had just been taking place, the actual epicenter of the just completed world war with the stench of millions of rotting corpses...nuclear fallout...chemical residues...

I'm curious, Brakelite: What then is the interpretation of Revelations 11:15, where it says the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord?
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Since the whole Bible is from God, there are literally hundreds of Scriptures from Jesus which reveal that Christ will set up His literal, real, physical, glorious Kingdom on earth after His second coming. But even if we limit ourselves to the words of Christ while He was on earth, there are plenty of Scriptures which show the absurdity of Amillennialism.

"When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory" is a reference to Christ as King of kings and Lord of Lords literally ruling over Israel and the world during the Millennium (and beyond).

1. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)

2. But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:63,64)

3. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:...(Mt 25:31,32, and following)

4. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:27,28)

5. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Mt 26:29)

6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7)

Apart from the words of Christ, we have the words of the Holy Spirit.

7. For unto us a child [CHRIST] is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:6,7)

8. And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness. (Isa 16:5)

[9] 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch [CHRIST] shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isa 11:1-12)

10. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;[CHRIST] and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
(Zech 6:12,13)

11. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. (Zech 14:8,9)
Jesus reinterprets the Jewish idea of a physical kingdom for us. Not one NT scripture claims a physical kingdom. And if you ignore this, you add to the book of Revelation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Willie T
B

brakelite

Guest
I'm curious, Brakelite: What then is the interpretation of Revelations 11:15, where it says the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord?
Daniel 2 reveals the answer to this, as the Rock hewn out but not by man's hand, crushes and destroys all the kingdoms or empires depicted in the statue. It may seem impossible that any of them are still there at the second coming, especially when the fourth kingdom, Rome, disappeared from the political scene 1500 years ago. Yet in Daniel God declared Da 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. My understanding of this matter is that although each subsequent empire laid waste to the former ones politically as independent state powers, their lives continued in a spiritual sense for their pagan beliefs continues to handed down from generation to generation, all the way to todays church, wherein one may still find remnants of Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman idolatry. It is this that will finally be utterly destroyed when Christ comes. However, the fact that all the world ceases to belong to any earthly potentate, be they man or demon, does not necessarily mean that Christ at that time inhabits the earth. That we now reign as kings and priests with Christ does not necessitate our earthly abode here either...at least not yet. When the New Jerusalem descends at the end of the millennium, we will be in it.
At that time all the wicked from all ages since creation till the second coming will be resurrected. (First part, Revel.20:5) They face the great white throne judgement, and are condemned. In desperation they surround the city, but are destroyed. Satan, the demons, and all the wicked cease to exist. The earth is cleansed of all the corruptions and pollutions of the previous 7000 years, the heavens and the earth are made new, and true eternity begins.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
What is ammellinialism?
(or however it's spelled)

I don't like to learn from Google and trust you more.
Theopedia is a reliable source for theological defintions.

In a nutshell it teaches the ABSURD idea that we are presently living in the Millennium.


Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. It stands in contrast to premillennialism, which states that Christ will return prior to a literal 1000 year earthly reign; and postmillennialism, which states that Christ's return will follow a 1000 year golden age ushered in by the church.

Terminology

Although the term amillennialism is widely used, some prefer the term realized millennialism, saying it describes the position more accurately than the former, which emphasizes what they do not believe about the millennium, rather than what they do believe.

Overview

Amillennialism teaches that the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic of the current church age, rather than a literal future 1000 year reign. It contends that the period described in Revelation 20 was inaugurated (i.e. began) at Christ's resurrection and will continue until His Second Coming. Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign. Also taught by amillennialism is that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 has already occurred, and means that "he might not deceive the nations any longer" (Revelation 20:3) by preventing the spread of the gospel...

If Satan is already bound, who is the puppet master who promotes wickedness on this earth and has his demonic minions creating havoc all over the world?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Theopedia is a reliable source for theological defintions.

In a nutshell it teaches the ABSURD idea that we are presently living in the Millennium.


Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. It stands in contrast to premillennialism, which states that Christ will return prior to a literal 1000 year earthly reign; and postmillennialism, which states that Christ's return will follow a 1000 year golden age ushered in by the church.

Terminology

Although the term amillennialism is widely used, some prefer the term realized millennialism, saying it describes the position more accurately than the former, which emphasizes what they do not believe about the millennium, rather than what they do believe.

Overview

Amillennialism teaches that the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic of the current church age, rather than a literal future 1000 year reign. It contends that the period described in Revelation 20 was inaugurated (i.e. began) at Christ's resurrection and will continue until His Second Coming. Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign. Also taught by amillennialism is that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 has already occurred, and means that "he might not deceive the nations any longer" (Revelation 20:3) by preventing the spread of the gospel...

If Satan is already bound, who is the puppet master who promotes wickedness on this earth and has his demonic minions creating havoc all over the world?
I agree with your last statement.

But are is the above saying there will never be a real earthly Kingdom?
I do believe that at the end, we will be united with our bodies and live here in a new earth.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
But are is the above saying there will never be a real earthly Kingdom?
They are so *spiritual* they believe everything is simply metaphorical and *spiritual*.
I do believe that at the end, we will be united with our bodies and live here in a new earth.
Sorry, but you are mistaken. The eternal home of the New Testament saints in the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3 and many other passages). The New Earth is for redeemed and restored Israel and the saved nations which will surround it.

At the same time, Christians will be involved with the administration of affairs on earth, since they will live and reign with Christ.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
If Satan had free reign right now, this forum wouldn't even exist.
That would be "free rein", and Satan does have free rein within limits at this time. Hence we have passages referring to our spiritual warfare and the enmity of Satan. At the same time the Holy Spirit is the divine Restrainer who determines how far Satan and his evil spirits and demons can go. Thus the Gospel continues to be preached and Christian forums continue to exist along with churches.

EPHESIANS 6
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [EVIL SPIRITS WHICH EXIST IN A HIERARCHY UNDER SATAN] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. (1 Pet 5:8,9)
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus reinterprets the Jewish idea of a physical kingdom for us. Not one NT scripture claims a physical kingdom. And if you ignore this, you add to the book of Revelation.

Ok Dave, I would rather not get into things with you, but you really should be ashamed of yourself here. You're accusing others of "adding to the Book of Revelation" when you're twisting and contorting it beyond recognition. What does it mean to you when it says "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord"?
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Daniel 2 reveals the answer to this, as the Rock hewn out but not by man's hand, crushes and destroys all the kingdoms or empires depicted in the statue. It may seem impossible that any of them are still there at the second coming, especially when the fourth kingdom, Rome, disappeared from the political scene 1500 years ago. Yet in Daniel God declared Da 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. My understanding of this matter is that although each subsequent empire laid waste to the former ones politically as independent state powers, their lives continued in a spiritual sense for their pagan beliefs continues to handed down from generation to generation, all the way to todays church, wherein one may still find remnants of Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman idolatry. It is this that will finally be utterly destroyed when Christ comes. However, the fact that all the world ceases to belong to any earthly potentate, be they man or demon, does not necessarily mean that Christ at that time inhabits the earth.

Ok, I suppose my next question then would be what you do with passages like Zechariah 14:16 and Isaiah 66:20?
 
Last edited:

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
They are so *spiritual* they believe everything is simply metaphorical and *spiritual*.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The eternal home of the New Testament saints in the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3 and many other passages). The New Earth is for redeemed and restored Israel and the saved nations which will surround it.

At the same time, Christians will be involved with the administration of affairs on earth, since they will live and reign with Christ.
Why am I wrong?
I'm saying the same thing you are....

(maybe using wrong language)
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Ok Dave, I would rather not get into things with you, but you really should be ashamed of yourself here. You're accusing others of "adding to the Book of Revelation" when you're twisting and contorting it beyond recognition. What does it mean to you when it says "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord"?
Unless you can support a physical kingdom from the NT, which Jesus never mentions, you are adding to the book of Revelation claiming such.