I kind of don't understand this. I heard a man say this yesterday (guess which man
- rhymes with peppy) that OT was the man's trust but NT is the trust OF Jesus. I can't quite grasp the thought...Faith or sin
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I kind of don't understand this. I heard a man say this yesterday (guess which man
- rhymes with peppy) that OT was the man's trust but NT is the trust OF Jesus. I can't quite grasp the thought...
I kind of don't understand this. I heard a man say this yesterday (guess which man
LOL....the just shall live by his faith. In the OT...his own faith and faithfulness (although this is also what I call entry level Jesus following
)And without changing the words for the NT it can also mean...The just shall live by His faith: The faith OF Jesus.
Yes...trust.
But How?
How did Peter walk on water? Was that his own faith trying real hard? Or was that by tapping into the faith of Jesus? So then it was a kind of piggy-backing our kind of faith onto His faith...so that we can do whatever HE is doing!
LOL....the just shall live by his faith. In the OT...his own faith and faithfulness (although this is also what I call entry level Jesus following
And without changing the words for the NT it can also mean...The just shall live by His faith: The faith OF Jesus.
Yes...trust.
But How?
How did Peter walk on water? Was that his own faith trying real hard? Or was that by tapping into the faith of Jesus? So then it was a kind of piggy-backing our kind of faith onto His faith...so that we can do whatever HE is doing!
Mmmm...hah, still puzzled!
Maybe its because of what my mind does with the word "faith." I say: the OT was trust and continued and growing trust in God. So the NT is...not our trust and growing trust but is Jesus' trust and growing trust...?
So there is something I'm not seeing...
I like all you've said but would like you to clarify what you mean by:
Sin we can produce on our own,,,good we cannot.
(highlighted by me above)
Do you mean that persons CAN do good but it's of no value to God if they are not saved?
I see unsaved persons doing good.
This is true.LOL....the just shall live by his faith. In the OT...his own faith and faithfulness (although this is also what I call entry level Jesus following
And without changing the words for the NT it can also mean...The just shall live by His faith: The faith OF Jesus.
Yes...trust.
But How?
How did Peter walk on water? Was that his own faith trying real hard? Or was that by tapping into the faith of Jesus? So then it was a kind of piggy-backing our kind of faith onto His faith...so that we can do whatever HE is doing!
In the O.T. we depended on our own faith and our own works and our own righteousness.
In the N.T. we depend on the righteousness of Jesus which is imputed to us.
We are still expected to follow the 10 commandments and any other commandment that came from the mouth of Jesus. But, yes, righteousness is now imputed to us.
How about...our trust in God is being propelled to become the same as Jesus' own trust in God.
How about...our trust in God is being propelled to become the same as Jesus' own trust in God.
Hahaha, well why didn't you just say that?? Okay, I understand you now.
You have the right idea...kind of!
Imputed? saved? These are buzzwords that only mean something to people who have spent a lot of time in pews listening to man inspired doctrines.
We are learning to have the same trust in God that Jesus has.
I think you fully understand the OT standard of righteousness. Kudos. You even realize that non-believers (don't say unsaved
) can do what is right and therefore be righteous on that level. The human level.The tricky part is reconciling that to being a believer in Jesus Christ.
Many Christians walk in no way superior to non-believers...but these CLAIM for themselves a higher righteousness...which is esteeming themselves too highly. The Lord is mocked because of this type of hypocrisy. Now these might be doing this from immaturity..and/or a bad teaching.
The higher righteousness only comes about by the miraculous entry into the life of Jesus...to be empowered by heaven to do impossible things. So then we only need God's righteousness to do the impossible. Doing the possible is always up to us. God doesn't go to work for us or clean the dishes for us.
We still have our own responsibilities towards Him and others. So we are fully responsible for our own conduct.
The righteousness of God comes in when God needs a servant to do His works...the humanly impossible eternal works.
As for imputed righteousness. God can impute righteousness on a non-believer too. So this is not God's level of righteousness. It is a recognition that a person is doing what is right with what a person has been given.
This whole "imputed" thing is a doctrine from men...to feel more justified for their religious stance.
Those who walk in (not just led by) the Spirit, walk in a higher law of righteousness.
The righteousness of God.
From there a sin is a fall from grace.
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Its like...Jesus emptied Himself and became flesh and had to completely trust God then and He showed us what happens when/if we can also reach that radical level of trust.
It gives you goosebumps and strengthens you to say, yes, yes, that's what I want to grab onto!
And then...fear comes. Something in you says...but...that's a live wire man, I'm afraid of what it could do to me...
So its sort of like the people who were awed and amazed (its somewhere in Acts I think) but didn't join in with the disciples because of fear. Do you remember those verses?
That's our part in the faith transaction...the implications. Peter looked down and saw the water beneath his feet and took his eyes off Jesus long enough to think...I can't be doing this!...then he sank according to his own level of trust.
We need to keep our eyes on a Jesus (the real Jesus) we can actually perceive, feel, touch and even see. That takes His kind of faculties...as in I only do what I see My Father DOING!
Walking in the Spirit is like walking on water. It is to walk in a environment that is IMPOSSIBLE for the natural man to walk in.
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Word!
We are a weak church. But we don't have to remain that way. We...choose to remain that way by not...putting it all on the line to see if God will do what He says!
Saved is definitely an idea of man. Salvatation is a biblical concept and one even the early church fathers spoke of. (pre 325AD).You have the right idea...kind of!
Imputed? saved? These are buzzwords that only mean something to people who have spent a lot of time in pews listening to man inspired doctrines.
We are learning to have the same trust in God that Jesus has.
Imputed is an idea from scripture.
Before Augustine, Adam's sin was NOT imputed to us..only its affects were now present in all of humanity.
After Augustine, it was accepted by the church of that time that Adam's sin was IMPUTED to us...and thus the required baptism of infants; in case they should die.
So imputation is a real concept...if you don't like the word, another one must be found, but I don't know of any.
As to having the same trust Jesus had....yes.
THIS is the work of God...that we believe in HIM whom God sent.
John 6:29
Believing in Jesus means being a disciple.
Being a disciple means trusting Him and learning from Him.
Can we be righteous on a human level?I think you fully understand the OT standard of righteousness. Kudos. You even realize that non-believers (don't say unsaved
The tricky part is reconciling that to being a believer in Jesus Christ.
Being righteous just means being right with God.
Can an unbeliever be right with God?
I don't believe so.
(and I'd LOVE to stop using the words saved and unsaved...but that's the modern lingo everyone understands).
Agreed.
Agreed on your last sentences.
I don't really understand what you mean by righteousness and imputed...
I think I explained how I understand those terms.
Where they told Jesus and the apostles to go away. Like the Israelites didn't want God speaking to them anymore...talk to Moses not us.
That is in the gospel of Matthew...after Jesus cast the demons into the pigs.
Matthew 8:34
34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.
Also in Acts...
Acts 16:39
39 And they came and besought them, and brought them out, and desired them to depart out of the city.
1. Can we be righteous on a human level?
Of course. We are to love others as ourselves. We (or anyone) will actually be justified by helping God's people in physical ways...a cup of cold water....clothing over nakedness...etc... To the least of the brethren of Jesus....whether you know them or not.
2. Being righteous just means being right with God.
Not so. That's a religious idea. God judges impartially. He is NOT a respecter of persons. So we must be right in God's eyes. You can't be just right with God and be not right with anyone else. God judges us as we treat others. So then God judges righteously or He judges a person as righteous...there is no side deal where we are good with God without also meeting the criteria for righteousness in general.
3. Can an unbeliever be right with God?
This is a religious idea...because God only sees right as right is displayed. God judges what is really there....by the fruit. Can a non-believer in Jesus be justified by a good attitude and service towards others (especially how these treat His people) ? Of course. The whole OT is about that. A righteousness on a human level...not knowing anything beyond the natural life....but being faithful IN that.
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Agreed.
Sorry, I don't understand sometimes. This is why I like to ask question....
Agreed...I think.
Of course we must be right with God in HIS eyes.
John 5:28-29 Of course we're required to follow His commandments.
But we're not in the O.T. anymore...
Jesus has come.
There is only one God...I'm not saying only Christians go to be with God.
However, if one denies God, then God will deny Him.
2 Timothy 2:12b
There are so many verses for this: need I post them?
John 6:40
Romans 10:10 .......and more.
Since we Christians believe Jesus is God, it becomes necessary to believe in HIM.
SBG: while you and Episkopos were talking, I was in the other room with my alphabet blocks building a few sentences.
(Living) Faith comes(is given--by hearing--and hearing by--The Word of God.
When Peter heard "Come", he responded in awe-struck love for and obedience to The Faith that caused(animated him to go
His Divine Faith, to me, is like a vehicle that carries us to(into Him...but how to stay there and not sink is huge.
(Living) Faith comes(is given--by hearing--and hearing by--The Word of God.
When Peter heard "Come", he responded in awe-struck love for and obedience to The Faith that caused(animated him to go
His Divine Faith, to me, is like a vehicle that carries us to(into Him...but how to stay there and not sink is huge.
What a nice post.SBG: while you and Episkopos were talking, I was in the other room with my alphabet blocks building a few sentences.
(Living) Faith comes(is given--by hearing--and hearing by--The Word of God.
When Peter heard "Come", he responded in awe-struck love for and obedience to The Faith that caused(animated him to go
His Divine Faith, to me, is like a vehicle that carries us to(into Him...but how to stay there and not sink is huge.
And yes,,,faith is a noun but is also a verb...
It denotes action. If we have faith, we obey that faith, we DO what it tells us to do. This would be like in Romans 1:5 -- we acquire the obedience OF FAITH. We have faith so we obey.
As to staying there...
when a person is worried about staying there..it usually means that they will.
It's a matter of the will. We WILL to stay with God, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we actually will accomplish what we set out to. In fact, the more grace we need, the more God gives us. No problem.
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