Jesus didn't take away our sin, only our punishment

Getitright · Apr 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Romans 8:9-11

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul is talking of two different terms here for flesh. "Flesh" in this case, is our nature that holds our instincts and spirit. It must be born again in this life. "Body" is made up of blood, flesh and bone, but is mortal. But, just as our nature or spirit became immortal when filled with the eternal God, so must our body put on immortality. Before we actually enter heaven for all eternity, we will be given a new body, and eternal body that never decays.

Paul has put these verses together so we would not mistake one for the other. It is like Paul is saying between verses 9 and 10 - "not to be mistaken for"

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

Why it is so confusing to some is that Paul does use the term flesh for our body as well in 1 Corinthians 15:39 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

The question was, why do Christians die?

mjrhealth · Apr 6, 2020

Taken said:
People being called or calling themselves Christians? Sure they can commit sin.

People who ARE "Born Again"? No, they can not commit Sin.

Glory to God,
Taken

Thats what they keep telling me, watch the news, see some atrocity, say in your heart, that man should be hung, you have sinned.

CharismaticLady · Apr 6, 2020

marks said:
Except you don't believe that, though you present yourself that you do.

You've redefined sin differently from the Scriptural, "that which is not of faith is sin", and you've allowed what you call "unintentional sins" AKA sins not unto death.

Are you changing your view?

Most people on this forum seem to think that you proclaim a complete sinlessness, a kind of moral perfection or excellence. But that's not true, is it?

Much love!

I am going by how God taught us that He determines. Numbers 15:22-36

CharismaticLady · Apr 6, 2020

Getitright said:
The question was, why do Christians die?

Because our bodies are mortal due to Adam's sin.

CharismaticLady · Apr 6, 2020

Taken said:
People being called or calling themselves Christians? Sure they can commit sin.

People who ARE "Born Again"? No, they can not commit Sin.

marks said:
Except you don't believe that, though you present yourself that you do.

Taken was correct regarding willful sin. And yes, God defines those who are born again can commit unintentional sin. And as we are walking in the Spirit they are immediately cleansed. 1 John 1:7. And if they are trespasses, they are cleansed as we forgive others. So if you want to go into the advanced nuances, that's it. Our goal as Christians is to have the mind of Christ. And His thoughts are more complex then you may think.

Taken · Apr 6, 2020

mjrhealth said:
Thats what they keep telling me, watch the news, see some atrocity, say in your heart, that man should be hung, you have sinned.

First of all, I don't watch TV.

Secondly, where is it written, Which Sin? that man has committed?

Thanks,
Taken

Getitright · Apr 6, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Because our bodies are mortal due to Adam's sin.

But, you said Jesus took away our punishment. If so, why do Christians die?

CharismaticLady · Apr 6, 2020

Getitright said:
But, you said Jesus took away our punishment. If so, why do Christians die?

Both are in His Word. See if you can figure out why.

mjrhealth · Apr 7, 2020

Taken said:
First of all, I don't watch TV.

Secondly, where is it written, Which Sin? that man has committed?

Thanks,
Taken

This bit

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

and this bit

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

As Christ pointed out, it is a Spiritual thing not just the physical, Any who says he does not sin is a liar,

CharismaticLady · Apr 7, 2020

marks said:
To be clear . . . I don't question your faith. I don't question your assessment of yourself, though it could be correct or not.

But I disagree with your soteriology.

Much love!

Then you don't sin at all then?

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Taken · Apr 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Taken was correct regarding willful sin. And yes, God defines those who are born again can commit unintentional sin.

You misunderstood. I said nothing about "willful" sin.
I believe "those Born Again" can not or do not commit sin.
1 John 3:9
1 John 5:18

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Apr 7, 2020

mjrhealth said:
This bit

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

and this bit

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

As Christ pointed out, it is a Spiritual thing not just the physical, Any who says he does not sin is a liar,

[ery with her already in his heart.

As Christ pointed out, it is a Spiritual thing not just the physical, Any who says he does not sin is a liar,[/QUOTE]

...that man should be hung, you have sinned.

I think you misunderstood my question.

I was not asking, about Anger, Adultery, Claiming to not sin.

I was asking about your statement...saying a man HAS Sinned...when That man thinks another man has committed an atrocity should be hung.

What is the SIN of a man
(who believes a man should be put to death for his crime)?

IOW- If a man "believes" a man should be put to death for a crime...
What scripture says THAT "BELIEF" is a Sin?

Glory to God,
Taken

mjrhealth · Apr 7, 2020

Taken said:
[ery with her already in his heart.

As Christ pointed out, it is a Spiritual thing not just the physical, Any who says he does not sin is a liar,

Because we have no right to judge any man, none, not one, if we do we stand on the side of the devil. He is the one who brings men before God for condemnation, if he heeded a witness would you be willing to stand on his side, and say, yes you agree with him, because if you do, you are not standing on the side of God, so whose side are you on, Gods or the devils.

I think you misunderstood my question.

I was not asking, about Anger, Adultery, Claiming to not sin.

I was asking about your statement...saying a man HAS Sinned...when That man thinks another man has committed an atrocity should be hung.

What is the SIN of a man
(who believes a man should be put to death for his crime)?

IOW- If a man "believes" a man should be put to death for a crime...
What scripture says THAT "BELIEF" is a Sin?

Glory to God,
Taken[/QUOTE]

Paul Christensen · Apr 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Taken was correct regarding willful sin. And yes, God defines those who are born again can commit unintentional sin. And as we are walking in the Spirit they are immediately cleansed. 1 John 1:9. And if they are trespasses, they are cleansed as we forgive others. So if you want to go into the advanced nuances, that's it. Our goal as Christians is to have the mind of Christ. And His thoughts are more complex then you may think.

Now this is something I can agree with. When Jesus said, "It is finished" He was saying that the whole debt for sin, past present and future is fully paid up and when we stand before God in the judgment, our case will be dismissed because Jesus has paid the "fine" for us, and we can go free.

We have the title deed to our freedom from sin in Christ, even though we do fail in our mortal bodies. The title deed says that the invoice for our sin is marked "paid in full" and is nailed to the cross.

We are being sanctified as we keep our bodies under subjection and keep them as our slaves instead of our masters. But we groan in ourselves along with the creation as we look forward to the day when our mortality puts on immortality.

Taken · Apr 7, 2020

mjrhealth said:
Because we have no right to judge any man, none, not one, if we do we stand on the side of the devil. He is the one who brings men before God for condemnation, if he heeded a witness would you be willing to stand on his side, and say, yes you agree with him, because if you do, you are not standing on the side of God, so whose side are you on, Gods or the devils.

You are giving me your opinion based on "something" and your conclusion about one judging.

I am looking for "the something" for your basis.

It seems you are landing on one man does not have the right to Judge another...and if one man does Judge another, it is a sin.

Where is the Scripture...
One man does not have the right to Judge another?
And IF one man Judges another, it is a sin?

Glory to God,
Thanks,
Taken

CharismaticLady · Apr 7, 2020

Paul Christensen said:
Now this is something I can agree with. When Jesus said, "It is finished" He was saying that the whole debt for sin, past present and future is fully paid up and when we stand before God in the judgment, our case will be dismissed because Jesus has paid the "fine" for us, and we can go free.

We have the title deed to our freedom from sin in Christ, even though we do fail in our mortal bodies. The title deed says that the invoice for our sin is marked "paid in full" and is nailed to the cross.

We are being sanctified as we keep our bodies under subjection and keep them as our slaves instead of our masters. But we groan in ourselves along with the creation as we look forward to the day when our mortality puts on immortality.

Oh oh! You agree with me? I must have stated what I believe incorrectly! LOL

(Actually, I did have a typo that I changed. I meant 1 John 1:7)

Paul Christensen · Apr 7, 2020

Taken said:
You are giving me your opinion based on "something" and your conclusion about one judging.

I am looking for "the something" for your basis.

It seems you are landing on one man does not have the right to Judge another...and if one man does Judge another, it is a sin.

Where is the Scripture...
One man does not have the right to Judge another?
And IF one man Judges another, it is a sin?

Glory to God,
Thanks,
Taken

The Bible says if we judge ourselves we will not be judged.
So, if I get an unsaved person to acknowledge that he has broken several of the Commandments and judges himself a liar, thief, blasphemer and an adulterer at heart then I am not judging him and he will pronounce himself guilty at the judgment. Once he does that then I can show him what Christ did on the cross to pay his debt so that his case can be dismissed and he go free. But he must turn to Christ and put his full trust in Him for that to happen.

Paul Christensen · Apr 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Oh oh! You agree with me? I must have stated what I believe incorrectly! LOL

(Actually, I did have a typo that I changed. I meant 1 John 1:7)

You did!

mjrhealth · Apr 7, 2020

Taken said:
You are giving me your opinion based on "something" and your conclusion about one judging.

I am looking for "the something" for your basis.

It seems you are landing on one man does not have the right to Judge another...and if one man does Judge another, it is a sin.

Where is the Scripture...
One man does not have the right to Judge another?
And IF one man Judges another, it is a sin?

Glory to God,
Thanks,
Taken

this bit

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

but if you desire to keep judging please go for it.

Mat_7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat_7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

or this bit

Luk 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Taken · Apr 7, 2020

mjrhealth said:
this bit

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Mat_7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat_7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

or this bit

Luk 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

but if you desire to "keep judging" please go for it.

Why turn this conversation into me to "keep judging"?

This was not a conversation about me judging anything.

This conversation was about a hypothetical situation, that you said it was a sin unto a man for thinking a man who committed atrocities should be punished by hanging.

This conversation was about me asking you for supportive Scriptures for the man you said was committing sin.

So you finally gave your supporting Scriptures.

I do not agree Judging a man is a sin.
Your Scriptural references say nothing about sin.
Your Scriptural references are about BY THE SAME measure You Judge a man...will ALSO shall be Judged.

Scripture DOES NOT PROHIBIT men from judging other men.
(In the OT, Beginning with Aaron, Priest, it was his appointed duty to Judge men, and pronounce Punishment, according to what the Law prescribed as Punishment...and there is a whole list from murder, rape, kidnapping, sex with animals, etc. for which the guilty was to be put to death).

The POINT is Judging an other is not a Sin.
The POINT is...Rightly or Wrongly Judging others, is not called a sin.

Scripture expressly teaches to RIGHTLY judge others.

(That is the WHOLE purpose of investigations and Fact findings, Before a Judgement).

The MEDIA is famous for presenting... Accusations, Suspicions, Opinions... as if they are FACTS.

Rightly Judging has Nothing to do with; a persons appearance, wealth, community standing, dislike of the other person...Only True Facts.

You gave examples of attention to Wrongly Judging..."not" that one should NOT Judge.

Judge RIGHTLY.

Deut 1:16
John 7:24
John 7:51
Zech 8:16
[16] These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

Judge Rightly in TRUTH.
(And as Scripture says, you will be Judged by that same measure/Truth)

Glory to God,
Taken

Jesus didn't take away our sin, only our punishment

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