Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Kermos · May 19, 2020

101G said:
First thanks for the reply, second, Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,". that's the key to choice, and free will.

Another thoughtful reply, but let's take a look at the NASB "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope" (Romans 8:20).

101G, you highlighted "was made subject to vanity". That does not indicate by the choice of the creation nor of the creation's free will; on the other hand, in fact, the verse specifically indicates that the creation "was subjected to futility" "because of Him who subjected it".

In Romans 8:20, it states "not willingly" while at the same time it does not state "willingly", so willpower is not indicated as a cause for the effect of "vanity"/"futility".

If you try to apply "not willingly" specifically to the creature (and I am not saying that is valid), then that vanity, that futility, mentioned by the Apostle Paul needs to view back at "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Gensesis 3:6).

We find actions indicated in Genesis 3:6, not choice, not free will, but action.

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

that's a choice of free will.

Item 2.3. in the original post addresses Genesis 3:22. Here's an incomplete summary, Adam would have had to know TO CHOOSE between good and evil prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; in other words, Adam did not know the difference between good and evil until AFTER Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:22).

that's a choice of free will. as with this, Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

dominion is to act, and this was given unto them by God himself. thay had the right to act either good or bad. that's free will.

PICJAG.

Item 2.1. in the original post addresses Genesis 1:26. Here's an incomplete summary, God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4); therefore, it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God.

You wrote "dominion is to act". This is the point. Action is described. When you wrote "thay had the right to act either good or bad. that's free will", then you are conveying that they KNEW good and evil before they ate of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, yet that is not the case because the Word of God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) indicating a transition point for man from (A) not knowing good and evil BEFORE eating of the tree - transitioning to - (B) knowing good and evil AFTER eating of the tree; therefore, free will is not indicated, and this concurs with the Apostle Paul's writing in Romans 8:20.

Kermos · May 19, 2020

justbyfaith said:
The specific word "choice" does not need to be in the text for Eve's action to be the result of a choice.

Sometimes the proper meaning can be established when you read between the lines.

You are endorsing something called adding to scripture about which the Apostle John proclaimed dire warning (Revelation 22:18-19).

It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

You are referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Kermos · May 19, 2020

101G said:
Well lets settle this onece and for all. "Desire" is just another word for free will. I had already look up the word, and the finding can be found here at the word Hippo Dictionary, and here's the link. https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/free_will.html#C0-1

see I already knew what the word ment, it's intresting how people go through hoop to try and defend their position. when they could have just look up the word.

PICJAG.

Let's look at four respectable and scholarly dictionaries, and more importantly at scripture cross referencing - that demonstrates free will is outside the definition of the word "desire".

Here is the full Genesis 3:6 verse as it is referenced repeatedly in this page "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6).

When we look at the word "desirable", it represents a state of being, so "desire" is part of the nature of the person. Princeton University WordNet (2010, accessed 18 May 2020 [opens to wordnetweb.princeton.edu]) indicates "desire" means "the feeling that accompanies an unsatisfied state".

Here are three states of desirable/desire:

attractive (desirable)
unattractive (undesirable)
indifference (could be classified as undesirable)

When we look at the Hebrew word חָמַד (chamad) - Strong's Hebrew: 2530 in the concordance, we find a variety of acceptable English words for translation, such as (these are all occurrences of chamad conjugations in the concordance for the NASB):

attracted (1)
covet (6)
coveted (1)
delight (1)
desirable (2)
desire (1)
desired (2)
desires (2)
pleasing (1)
precious (2)
precious things (1)
took great delight (1)

The English word "covet" has a special application in Genesis 3:6, yet "desire" still conveys synonymous meaning.

Of critical comparative importance, the Hebrew word חָמַד (chamad), being the word "covet", is used in The Ten Commandments with "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor" (Exodus 20:17), and both "desire" and "covet" would work here for חָמַד (chamad) in this commandment.

IMPORTANT POINT: God reserved the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). The tree was prohibited to man for food - reserved from man by Creator God.

The tree was desirable for food by Eve.

It can also be written as: the tree was covetable for food by Eve.

The desire, the coveting, was for the tree that did not belong to Eve nor Adam for food, please recall the IMPORTANT POINT.

God did generously provide attributes for man as well as withhold attributes from man. The "lust" for the tree's food precedes the punishment, and the "lust" occurred in man when man's state was between being created and the punishment, that is pre-punishment.

Desire does not equal "choice" nor "free will".

Covet does not equal "choice" nor "free will.

The coveting precedes the action, so cause and effect are expressed. The cause was "coveting", and the effect was "eating". There is no indication of "choose".

Per the Merriam-Webster Dictionary accessed 18 May 2020 definition of the word "desire" (link opens to Merriam-Webster.com):

the word "covet" is a synonym for "desire"
the word "choose" is not a synonym for "desire"
the word "choice" is not a synonym for "desire".

The Apostle Paul wrote about coveting with "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COVET.' But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin [is] dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).
Paul did not write that he chose to covet.

Paul did write that sin produced in him coveting of every kind.

Behold the verb/action word that Paul used, Paul used the word "produced", not "chose", but he used "produced".

"Desire" and it's synonyms "suggest feelings that impel a person to the attainment or possession of something" according to the Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd.

The above definition makes it is necessary to obtain the definition of "impel" (obtained from The Free Dictionary [link to thefreedictionary.com]).

impel: to urge or force (a person) to an action; constrain or motivate (Collins English Dictionary - Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers)

impel: To drive forward; propel (American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company)

Impel has meaning such as "drive" and "force" and "motivate" and "propel"; therefore, human nature is indicated, so it is a matter of carnal nature or spiritual nature.

Again, here is the full verse of Genesis 3:6 again:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6).Notice, the passage does not say "she chose to take from its fruit and chose to eat"; furthermore, the passage does not state "he chose to eat" at the end of the verse.
The passage does say "she took from its fruit and ate" pointedly in a non-decisional manner; furthermore, the passage does state "he ate" at the end of the verse pointedly in a non-decisional manner.

A word for "choose" exists in Hebrew, but that word does not occur here in this passage.

Genesis 3:6 expresses lust.

Genesis 3:6 does not express choice for it is not written.

Genesis 3:6 expresses action for it is written.

Between Genesis 3:6 and Exodus 20:17, it is evident that חָמַד (chamad) is referring contextually to a person's nature - a person driven by the nature manifesting as the state of the person such as desire or covet.

Kermos · May 19, 2020

Rocky Wiley said:
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
naw-shaw'
A primitive root; to lead astray, that is, (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce: - beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.
Eve was seduced by the devil, how else is Cain is the child of the devil.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Praise God!

Eve did not say "The serpent beguiled me, and I chose to eat".

Eve did say "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat".

Eve expressed action.

@101G, did you see this? Desire does not include free will.

Kermos · May 19, 2020

Enoch111 said:
Actions speak louder than words. Or is this the first time you have heard that?

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (Gen 3:6)

From what verse does "Actions speak louder than words" come? BTW, choice is not indicated even in that colloqialism.

There's no choice nor free will indicated in Genesis 3:6.

God did generously provide attributes for man as well as withhold attributes from man

BUT the Word of God expressed man's "act" which was to eat the fruit of the tree (Genesis 3:6, the second portion)

WHILE simultaneously the Word is silent about man's "will" in the Creation account

YET Scripture records man's "lust" with

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
and that it was a delight to the eyes,
and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise (Genesis 3:6, the first portion)

AND in Genesis 3:6, the first portion precedes the second portion

THUS the "lust" precedes the "act"AND the "act" precedes the punishment (Genesis 3:8-24)

THEREFORE the "lust" precedes the punishment

SO the "lust" occurred in man when man's state was between being created and the punishment, that is pre-punishment (see also examining the word "desirable" in Genesis 3:6)

Taken · May 19, 2020

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Yes.

Adam CREATED/ formed from the existing dust of the Earth (dry land).

Adam MADE Alive/ having Gods Breath iMPARTED/ Gods Life called a Soul.

Adams formed, Created, Made BODY, was WonderFULLY MADE.

Pss 139
[14] I will praise thee; for I am fearfully andwonderfully made : marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Although God was with Adam in the Garden, Teaching Adam ONLY Good things. Adam had FREEWILL to Not DO according to Gods Teaching.

Adam MADE his FREEWILL Choice To Look upon the Tree God warned Adam Not to Look upon.

Adam MADE his FREEWILL Choice To Eat from the Tree warned Adam Not To Eat its Fruit.

Satan said, Eating the Fruit would MAKE Adam LIKE God...IT DID.
Like God, Adam thereafter "KNEW", Good and Evil.

Satan said, IN direct Opposition to God,
THAT Adam would "NOT DIE", "IF" Adam ate the fruit.
THAT was Satans LIE.

Gen 2:

[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 5:
[5] And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Adam freely chose to Eat.
Adam Died.
God is Truth.
Satan LIES.

Glory to God,
Taken

Kermos · May 19, 2020

Enoch111 said:
This is another ridiculous thread.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Here we go again, people trying to prove that God commanded Adam to do something that was impossible for him to obey and that sin and death was part of God's purpose. That sin and death originates from God, but sin and death causes chaos and chaos didn't originate from God purpose. If sin and death was part of God purpose, why would he punish any man for following that purpose. The scriptures are many that shows God punishing those who sin, but according to you God punishes people for not being able to obey his commands although mankind according to you doesn't have free will to be able to choose to obey his commands. That means it's impossible to choose to live by faith because of a person's love for God because according to you mankind is just a bunch of programmed robots going through life living that life God has programmed each human to live.

I believe all this to be nonsense

To @GISMYS_7 @justbyfaith as well

This thread is illuminating the difference between eternal life which is the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation (John 15:16, John 15:19) versus eternal death which is man lying about the Word of God as well as trying to steal from God.

There are even people like BARNEY BRIGHT evading the mention of scripture altogether, and his points are already addressed in this thread in item 1 and item 2.2. of the original post and post #20 showing that God is the Potter and we are the clay and post #21 about the old things and new things!

Adam did not have free will.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · May 19, 2020

DNB said:
Either way, I was being extremely facetious, implying how absurd and incompetent your exegesis was.
You took the word 'for' to mean an established fact, when anyone with just partial sense, understands that the contextual implications define the word to be referring to the imminency of the consequence, not the violation. But, if that weren't bad enough, the entire over-arching principle of the Bible, reveals man's autonomy. And, if that weren't bad enough, eating of the fruit itself endowed them with an undeniable deified regard for themselves. Being more than ever self-determining beings, invariably much to their detriment.
This thread has exposed how radically unsound and haphazard your understanding of Scripture is Kermos. If this is indicative of your theology in general, then you appear to be extremely unreliable as an exegete.

First, you demonstrated that you mishandle scripture by fumbling around with the word "from the beginning".

Now, you falsely claim "over-arching principle of the Bible, reveals man's autonomy". You fail to acknowledge that the word "for" in Genesis 2:17 means "when" as in a definite occurence as pointed out in item 1 of the original post.

You continue on without acknowledging post #21 about the old things and new things in this thread.

You cite no scripture. You quote no scripture. Those are your thoughts not God's thoughts.

It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

You try to manipulate the very Word of God in your thoughts.

The original post includes much scripture along with appropriate word definition; therefore, Adam did not have free will.

Kermos · May 19, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Not saying I'm making a point here. But I thought I would bring up a specific scripture.

Pro 16:4, The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

It is a relevant passage, justbyfaith, and I appreciate you bringing it up!

Taken · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
From what verse does "Actions speak louder than words" come? BTW, choice is not indicated even in that colloqialism.

There's no choice nor free will indicated in Genesis 3:6.

Disagree.

Gen 3:6
[6] And when the (woman saw) that the tree was good for food,
and that it was pleasant to the eyes,
(woman's Eyes)
and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
(Satans' INFLUENCE)
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She Saw.
She believed it would MAKE her WISE.
She reached out and Took the fruit.

Did it MAKE her WISE?

It MADE her WISE that there there IS Good AND Evil.

Wisdom IS "MAKING" a FREEWILL Choice of Good OVER Evil.

It is a Lesson.
God ONLY Taught Good.
The Same, A parent is Suppose To Teach their Children...
So that WHEN, they Become Introduced to Outside Influences, they are Not Tricked or TEMPTED to Fall For what an outsider uses to Tempt them "With"...

Yet we Full well know, young minds are curious and Freely Choose to Try, what outside Influences Suggest (Tempt).

A WISE person's " FreeWill" Reject a Tempter and their Ideas.

Jesus Gave an Excellent Example Of HOW TO Reject A TEMPTER.

Glory to God,
Taken

101G · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
Another thoughtful reply, but let's take a look at the NASB "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope" (Romans 8:20).

101G, you highlighted "was made subject to vanity". That does not indicate by the choice of the creation nor of the creation's free will; on the other hand, in fact, the verse specifically indicates that the creation "was subjected to futility" "because of Him who subjected it".

In Romans 8:20, it states "not willingly" while at the same time it does not state "willingly", so willpower is not indicated as a cause for the effect of "vanity"/"futility".

If you try to apply "not willingly" specifically to the creature (and I am not saying that is valid), then that vanity, that futility, mentioned by the Apostle Paul needs to view back at "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Gensesis 3:6).

We find actions indicated in Genesis 3:6, not choice, not free will, but action.

Item 2.3. in the original post addresses Genesis 3:22. Here's an incomplete summary, Adam would have had to know TO CHOOSE between good and evil prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; in other words, Adam did not know the difference between good and evil until AFTER Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:22).

Item 2.1. in the original post addresses Genesis 1:26. Here's an incomplete summary, God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4); therefore, it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God.

You wrote "dominion is to act". This is the point. Action is described. When you wrote "thay had the right to act either good or bad. that's free will", then you are conveying that they KNEW good and evil before they ate of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, yet that is not the case because the Word of God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) indicating a transition point for man from (A) not knowing good and evil BEFORE eating of the tree - transitioning to - (B) knowing good and evil AFTER eating of the tree; therefore, free will is not indicated, and this concurs with the Apostle Paul's writing in Romans 8:20.

first thanks for the reply, just as a child have free choice, and the will is unrestrained. and in the growth and development of the mind "desire" is that choice in the freedom to act. as said, "desire" is just anther word for "Free will, one can ascertain this information at Word Hippo https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/free_will.html

PICJAG.

101G · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
Praise God!

Eve did not say "The serpent beguiled me, and I chose to eat".

Eve did say "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat".

Eve expressed action.

@101G, did you see this? Desire does not include free will.

Did not God already commanded not to eat, so the choice after the Command of God, and after the beguiled, she did this, "when the woman saw that the tree was good for food". "saw" here is a conscious decision of choice, meaning FREE WILL.

But thanks for the invite.

PICJAG.

justbyfaith · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Behold, to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a work of God;

You left out John 6:28:

Jhn 6:28, Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus makes His statement in answer to this question.

Therefore, He is saying, "If you are going to insist that you will have salvation by works, the only work (that you can do) that will save you is to believe on the One whom He hath sent."

justbyfaith · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
You are endorsing something called adding to scripture about which the Apostle John proclaimed dire warning (Revelation 22:18-19).

It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

You are referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

No, I have merely taken from the scripture what it plainly teaches.

You are trying to make a point based on the fact that a word is missing. I believe that that is a logical fallacy.

Kermos said:
Praise God!

Eve did not say "The serpent beguiled me, and I chose to eat".

Eve did say "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat".

Why did she eat?

Did God force her to do it?

Or, did she choose to eat it?

Is there a third option that I am not seeing?

If it is the first, how do you suppose God can punish her, and the entire human race for that matter, based on something that He made happen?

Is God some kind of sadist in your opinion?

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
To @GISMYS_7 @justbyfaith as well

This thread is illuminating the difference between eternal life which is the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation (John 15:16, John 15:19) versus eternal death which is man lying about the Word of God as well as trying to steal from God.

There are even people like BARNEY BRIGHT evading the mention of scripture altogether, and his points are already addressed in this thread in item 1 and item 2.2. of the original post and post #20 showing that God is the Potter and we are the clay and post #21 about the old things and new things!

Adam did not have free will.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

I simply believe as the scriptures say, Jehovah God created mankind in his image, according to his likeness. How can we be created in God image according to his likeness if mankind are not free moral agents.
People who quote Scripture that talk about believers throughout all time, who are interpreting them to mean mankind has no free will, they're misinterpreting those scriptures because these scriptures ate talking about believers. How can you believe or accept something to be true if you have no free will. Look up the word believe or believer for yourselves.
Do people have a choice to be a criminal or not or are we programmed before we come into existence that a choice had been made for us before we come into existence that we will be criminals. Decide for yourselves.

DNB · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
First, you demonstrated that you mishandle scripture by fumbling around with the word "from the beginning".

Now, you falsely claim "over-arching principle of the Bible, reveals man's autonomy". You fail to acknowledge that the word "for" in Genesis 2:17 means "when" as in a definite occurence as pointed out in item 1 of the original post.

You continue on without acknowledging post #21 about the old things and new things in this thread.

You cite no scripture. You quote no scripture. Those are your thoughts not God's thoughts.

It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

You try to manipulate the very Word of God in your thoughts.

The original post includes much scripture along with appropriate word definition; therefore, Adam did not have free will.

Rule #1, the person who claims to equate their opinions with that of God's, is typically the worst exegete in the room. You qualified that adage without compromise.
Rule #2, the person who is required to substantiate their position of a particular doctrine, by isolating a single word and researching its etymology, typically espouses erroneous doctrine. The context and meaning has entirely eluded them.

You interpret Scripture like a child, only reading the passages on a very superficial level, and to a very selective degree.
You made completely absurd predications as in: a command does not imply choice, to covet is not self-determined, man's fallen nature, ...
You have entirely failed to harmonize the sovereignty of God with man's free will. The profundity of God's Word has completely eluded you.

justbyfaith · May 19, 2020

DNB said:
Rule #1, the person who claims to equate their opinions with that of God's, is typically the worst exegete in the room.

Not necessarily the case.

See 1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27, 1 John 4:4-6.

If someone actually believes that the Lord has spoken these scriptures to them, it doesn't necessarily make them the worst exegete in the room. If the Lord is the One who actually spoke those verses to them, then they know all things, and have the truth.

Therefore your statement is unfounded in and even contradicted by holy scripture.

Which is not to say that I necessarily agree with @Kermos' statements.

Kermos · May 19, 2020

101G said:
Well lets settle this onece and for all. "Desire" is just another word for free will. I had already look up the word, and the finding can be found here at the word Hippo Dictionary, and here's the link. https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/free_will.html#C0-1

see I already knew what the word ment, it's intresting how people go through hoop to try and defend their position. when they could have just look up the word.

PICJAG.

Hello 101G,

You provided the link to "free will" at https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/free_will.html#C0-1
(WordHippo Thesaurus © 2020), so it seems incumbent on me to diligently examine your thesis.

OBSERVATION ONE: you provided the link to "free will", and you drew the conclusion that "desire" and "free will" are synonyms because you found "desire" in the synonym list. The definition of "free will" at the link you provided is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate".

OBSERVATION TWO: you linked to "free will" based upon you presupposing that "desirable" denotes "free will" in Genesis 3:6.

OBSERVATION THREE: you did not link to "desire" nor "desirable".

OBSERVATION FOUR: this link to "desire" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/desire.html#C0-20 contains precisely the same definition as OBSERVATION ONE which is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate", and this definition for "desire" contains the synonym "free will" in the list; moreover, the list does not contain "envy" nor "covet".

OBSERVATION FIVE: this link to "desire" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/desire.html#C0-16 presents the definition of "a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck", and this definition for "desire" contains the synonyms "envy" and "coveting" in the list; moreover, the list does not contain "free will".

OBSERVATION SIX: Eve knew the tree was prohibited by God for food as per her own words recorded in Genesis 3:2. The tree was reserved from man for food.

OBSERVATION SEVEN: Everything is God's. "Out of the ground YHWH God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:9). God is owner.

OBSERVATION EIGHT: Eve's modus operandi is clearly indicated as her desire to be made wise (Genesis 3:6).

OBSERVATION NINE: Eve had envy for God's possession which matches the definition in OBSERVATION FIVE. Eve had envy for the food of the tree in pursuit of wisdom as expressed in "the woman saw that" "the tree was desirable to make wise" (Genesis 3:6). "Envy" and "desire" are synonyms as shown in OBSERVATION FIVE.

OBSERVATION TEN: "free willable" fails to fit the context of Genesis chapters 1-3, and in particular Genesis 3:6 for this examination.

OBSERVATION ELEVEN: "covetable" and "enviable" and "desirable" successfully fit the context of Genesis chapters 1-3, and in particular Genesis 3:6 for this examination.

I would now like to draw attention back to this look at four reputable and scholarly dictionaries, and more importantly at scripture cross referencing - that demonstrates "free will" is outside the definition of the word "desire" for Genesis 3:6 (post in this thread).

All of this demonstrates that man was not endowed with free will.

justbyfaith · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
Hello 101G,

You provided the link to "free will" at https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/free_will.html#C0-1
(WordHippo Thesaurus © 2020), so it seems incumbent on me to diligently examine your thesis.

OBSERVATION ONE: you provided the link to "free will", and you drew the conclusion that "desire" and "free will" are synonyms because you found "desire" in the synonym list. The definition of "free will" at the link you provided is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate".

OBSERVATION TWO: you linked to "free will" based upon you presupposing that "desirable" denotes "free will" in Genesis 3:6.

OBSERVATION THREE: you did not link to "desire" nor "desirable".

OBSERVATION FOUR: this link to "desire" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/desire.html#C0-20 contains precisely the same definition as OBSERVATION ONE which is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate", and this definition for "desire" contains the synonym "free will" in the list; moreover, the list does not contain "envy" nor "covet".

OBSERVATION FIVE: this link to "desire" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/desire.html#C0-16 presents the definition of "a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck", and this definition for "desire" contains the synonyms "envy" and "coveting" in the list; moreover, the list does not contain "free will".

OBSERVATION SIX: Eve knew the tree was prohibited by God for food as per her own words recorded in Genesis 3:2. The tree was reserved from man for food.

OBSERVATION SEVEN: Everything is God's. "Out of the ground YHWH God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:9). God is owner.

OBSERVATION EIGHT: Eve's modus operandi is clearly indicated as her desire to be made wise (Genesis 3:6).

OBSERVATION NINE: Eve had envy for God's possession which matches the definition in OBSERVATION FIVE. Eve had envy for the food of the tree in pursuit of wisdom as expressed in "the woman saw that" "the tree was desirable to make wise" (Genesis 3:6). "Envy" and "desire" are synonyms as shown in OBSERVATION FIVE.

OBSERVATION TEN: "free willable" fails to fit the context of Genesis chapters 1-3, and in particular Genesis 3:6 for this examination.

OBSERVATION ELEVEN: "covetable" and "enviable" and "desirable" successfully fit the context of Genesis chapters 1-3, and in particular Genesis 3:6 for this examination.

I would now like to draw attention back to this look at four reputable and scholarly dictionaries, and more importantly at scripture cross referencing - that demonstrates "free will" is outside the definition of the word "desire" for Genesis 3:6 (post in this thread).

All of this demonstrates that man was not endowed with free will.

Not buying it.

Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

101G · May 19, 2020

Kermos said:
Hello 101G,

You provided the link to "free will" at https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/free_will.html#C0-1
(WordHippo Thesaurus © 2020), so it seems incumbent on me to diligently examine your thesis.

OBSERVATION ONE: you provided the link to "free will", and you drew the conclusion that "desire" and "free will" are synonyms because you found "desire" in the synonym list. The definition of "free will" at the link you provided is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate".

OBSERVATION TWO: you linked to "free will" based upon you presupposing that "desirable" denotes "free will" in Genesis 3:6.

OBSERVATION THREE: you did not link to "desire" nor "desirable".

OBSERVATION FOUR: this link to "desire" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/desire.html#C0-20 contains precisely the same definition as OBSERVATION ONE which is "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate", and this definition for "desire" contains the synonym "free will" in the list; moreover, the list does not contain "envy" nor "covet".

OBSERVATION FIVE: this link to "desire" https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/desire.html#C0-16 presents the definition of "a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck", and this definition for "desire" contains the synonyms "envy" and "coveting" in the list; moreover, the list does not contain "free will".

OBSERVATION SIX: Eve knew the tree was prohibited by God for food as per her own words recorded in Genesis 3:2. The tree was reserved from man for food.

OBSERVATION SEVEN: Everything is God's. "Out of the ground YHWH God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:9). God is owner.

OBSERVATION EIGHT: Eve's modus operandi is clearly indicated as her desire to be made wise (Genesis 3:6).

OBSERVATION NINE: Eve had envy for God's possession which matches the definition in OBSERVATION FIVE. Eve had envy for the food of the tree in pursuit of wisdom as expressed in "the woman saw that" "the tree was desirable to make wise" (Genesis 3:6). "Envy" and "desire" are synonyms as shown in OBSERVATION FIVE.

OBSERVATION TEN: "free willable" fails to fit the context of Genesis chapters 1-3, and in particular Genesis 3:6 for this examination.

OBSERVATION ELEVEN: "covetable" and "enviable" and "desirable" successfully fit the context of Genesis chapters 1-3, and in particular Genesis 3:6 for this examination.

I would now like to draw attention back to this look at four reputable and scholarly dictionaries, and more importantly at scripture cross referencing - that demonstrates "free will" is outside the definition of the word "desire" for Genesis 3:6 (post in this thread).

All of this demonstrates that man was not endowed with free will.

First thanks for the reply. second, well OBSERVATION #1. the link to word hippo is the word, "desire", which is synonyms to the word "FREE WILL". and synonyms means a word that has the same meaning as another word in the same language
so all your OBSERVATION fail. please examine that look and see what the tab is used ... "synonyms".

now OBSERVATION #3. that ends that narrative for me. for "desire", which is synonyms to the word "FREE WILL."

PICJAG.

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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