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I agree.

This is also false (and demonstrates a lack of familiarity with Christian theology). If the Cross is viewed as God reconciling mankind to Himself (not counting man's sins against them) and this is viewed as having two results - some saved and "in Christ", others lost and will be judged by...

Sorry David, but I have to remain faithful to Scripture even in my own theories. The indoctrinated hold believes that they have no right to hold because they are not really theirs. You, for example, are indoctrinated. The evidence is that: 1. You dismiss other interpretations of Scripture as...

John Wesley was a strong supporter of Penal Substitution Theory. But he was inconsistent in his theology. The logical conclusion of Penal Substitution Theory (at least when initially articulated by John Calvin) is all five points of Calvinism. The point here is not the truthfulness of the...

Years ago I was concerned that our (SBC) churches were not teaching to foster belief but teaching in terms of indoctrination. I am Baptist and was back then. We all knew the doctrine of eternal security and verses to support it. But we were not taught the why, how others arrive at alternate...

Some do. Some don't. George MacDonald and C. S. Lewis were close in views. MacDonald held universalism while Lewis did not. Neither held limited atonement. Perhaps the biggest difference is in purpose. Those who believe Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all human...

I do not know that it can be helped (using words loaded with assumptions). For example, "spiritual death" is loaded with assumptions, "justice" seems to be loaded as well (you speak of a type that must be satisfied), and even a type of "sin debt" assumes (IMHO) far too much. It is easy to...

I told @Steve Owen that I would explain my view of the Atonement. I did not have a chance until now. Below is outlined my view. I know @Steve Owen , @Enoch111 , and certainly @David Taylor (probably a few more) take issue with my position but at least you can see where I do stand (we've been...

I actually agree with the first three points.. The difference may be how God remedied the "sin problem". I do not think Penal Substitution Theory biblically solves the problem of sin, partly because it remains within the law. Instead I believe God re-creates man in Christ and we die to sin...

I do not see that people have a disagreement over the word "penalty". One could say the "wages", "consequences", and even "penalty" for sin is death. While a punishment can impose a penalty, the word "penalty" does not mean "punishment". In general a penalty is "a disadvantage or hardship due...

If you consider that Penal Substitution Theory then I never left. I never argued against the fact Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh, but by being made alive in the spirit. I argued against the idea that Christ was...

The ultimate disagreement is the philosophies that Penal Substitution Theory assumes. Here are a few examples for illustration: 1. Divine justice is retributive justice 2. Sin creates a demand or debt on divine justice 3. The demands of divine justice must be met in order for forgiveness to...

This is not true. It is an argument that some Calvinists make but it reflects a lack of understanding (or honesty) about other positions. A professor used to constantly argue that everyone believed in limited atonement because Jesus did not die to save dogs and cats (Tom used to argue that)...

This is intellectually dishonest You provide a paper stating these people held Penal Substitution Theory as evidenced by quotes from those people. The quotes, however, do not evidence Penal Substitution Theory. And you think that is completely irrelevant. You provide passages of Scripture...

The substance of the debate is whether or not the context Penal Substitution Theory provides is correct. It is an old debate (Anabaptist/ Mennonite theologians have stood vocally against the context the Theory provides for centuries and more contemporary scholars like C. S. Lewis and Torrance...

I know you do not understand how, David, but it does not bolster my position. It IS my position.

Jane, Gibran once noted that we can give people our words but not our understanding. That is why I suggest you reference people like C.S. Lewis who are better teachers than I. But I guess to be fair (to me) I need to tell you what I do believe rather than being judged on what I reject. I...

I know. When I was convicted that Penal Substitution Theory was wrong it was a real struggle for me to get what the other views believed. When I say the "classic view" this is a general theme shared by many but it was foreign to me. C. S. Lewis' works helped me to at least understand the...

I agree Jesus was/ is the Lamb. I just believe it is more of a deliverance from sin and death rather than a substititionary punishment. Having once held Penal Substitution Theory it would be very difficult for me to return because I would, in my view, be leaving Scripture. But that is why I...

Actually, the lamb slain was not instead of the eldest child. It was so that death would pass over.