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I'll see your theory and raise you Scripture: 1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh, but by being made alive in the spirit.

I have read it. It does not change history. The idea that Penal Substitution Theory was held before the Reformation because others have stated the same passages we all agree on is no evidence at all. It is not about pitting sources against each other but going directly to the original sources...

You said "canceled" means "paid by punishment".

wrong. Penal Substitution Theory teaches that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us. But it is an example of the issue here. To you "the certificate of debt was canceled" means "the certificate of debt was paid by God punishing Christ instead of punishing us". This is eisegesis. Do...

Does this mean "no"? Posting from Masters seminary is not very impressive. I thought you went to Liberty. (or were you just posting someone who agrees with you?)

Yes, I agree.

We agree. As evidence - what verse did I reject (not what human reasoning I rejected but what actual verse) ?

Yes. This is the same act.

You did not encounter Justin Martyer's view tending towards recipitulation, Ransom Theory as the early dominant view, Ablard's influence on the Classic view, Aquinis' reworking of Anselm's position.... Yet you expect us to believe you studied Church history?

No. I believe that Christ died for human sin. Your accusation only works under the pretence of Penal Substitution Theory. I believe because of the Cross those in Christ will not be judged while those not will face a Christ-centered judgment.

The certificate of debt was canceled. Colossians 2:14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. Rather than this being divine righteousness manifestes through the law I believe it is...

I believe Christ became sin (became as sinful man) but never actually sinned. I relate this to "death spread to all, for all have sinned". I do not believe Jesus was literally made sin (an act of disobedience to God).

I think we have to distinguish between "our sins" as individuals and "our sins" meaning the sins of mankind (as a whole). The writings of the ECF's (Justin Martyr, for example) can look very much like Penal Substitution Theory as they (we all) affirm the same passages. But the ECF's shared...

I do not believe any earthly organization is Christian. People are saved, not people groups. To reference Spurgeon - people go to Hell in the lump. They are saved one at a time. I do believe Roman Catholic doctrine is false (otherwise I would be Catholic). But for the most part I do not think...

Yes.

I am not "dodging" the question. I said that I DO believe a person who is a Roman Catholic can be a Christian. (I do not know what Mormons believe, so I can only say I do not share your view that they are beyond salvation). That is no contradiction. I believe you teach a dangerous and false...

I enjoy discussing these things with believers. I believe we were purchased with the blood of Chris But I do not mean this implies someone or something received a payment. Instead I believe Christ suffered the cost of our salvation.

I do not believe religion is Christian. You hold to very false teachings but I believe despite your false beliefs you are saved. Some could believe all the right things and not be saved. I believe all who believe the gospel are saved. And yes, I have friends who are Catholic yet I believe...

Thanks for your clarification. IMHO what changes is not the wrath but those being saved. We are made righteous in Christ (there is no condemnation in Christ - no wrath to appease). We are rescued from the wrath.

You are just arguing to argue now, David. I can say that Penal Substitution Theory is not affirmed by most Christians because it is true. The most popular view for the 1st millenia of Christian was the Ransom view. The most popular after the 13th century was a mixture of Abelard's Moral...