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Do we need to separate the two? I know Dispensationalists do...that's one of the defining beliefs of their end times system. But to me, this just reads: any Christians (or elect) who are still alive at Christ's return will be caught up. It just seems to me that the only disctinction between...

Ok..you don't 'believe' in Jews. Fine. But how about people? You say everyone needs to be born again, but past that demand, can you see people for who they are...lost and in need of Christ? As Christians we should LOVE people. Accept them to us as broken as they are...because of all people in...

Hi HIH! I don't mind chatting either here or privately...although if there's a lot of content to work through it might feel like we've "high jacked" the thread a bit if we do it here. It's interesting that you mentioned the "comes like a thief in the night" passage, and specifically in regards...

Hi HIH. So...can I ask a question? Purely out of interest. What leads you to believe that we are 'no where near that time yet?' If we cannot know the time, but it will come upon us like a thief...in another words surprise us...then it must be able to happen at any time, yes? Which means near or...

I am not a Dispensationalist, or a "Pre-tribber", but I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. Dispensationalists, like us (I would imagine) would not so easily fall for a false messiah. Simply because like us, they know that when Jesus comes...be it in a Rapture which would be...

Actually, I think we all need to challenge our perceptions. That includes you challenging my Amil beliefs. And we should all do, and receive, such challenges without defensiveness. Proverbs 27:17 says, "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another. By testing each other and being...

So, not taking scripture "literally" means that people think God is lying and Jesus is NOT the truth? What do you take "literal" to mean, however? Do we take it to mean that all of God's word is true, essential and necessary for life and growing in the knowledge of God? Or must it mean that...

I'm not sure I get your point here. You seem to suggest that one is "the wrong choice". But despite that, how is either wrong? Obviously we 'believe Jesus'. We read his words in scripture, we see them to be true, the words of God. But his words don't float there in isolation, one sentence at a...

Fantasy and delusion? No. Just difference in interpretation of the text. But thank you for highlighting my point that people entering into these conversations need to back away from the slights upon character. How are we to have civil conversations about these topics when it's "foolish" this...

I've read it, thanks. And I think building a doctrine as 'solid' as the Millennium...as many have...on that chapter alone...on that reference to 1000 years alone, is not reasonable. Not when we consider the usage of numbers throughout the book (symbolic), or the implications a literal millennium...

I've never understood what the purpose of the "millennium" is. Apart from not seeing it supported in scripture, why would God set us up in what, essentially, is a "do over"? Christ comes and reinstates the world as it was, more or less, in the garden. No more getting eaten by lions, tigers and...

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. -Matt 24:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” -John 4:24 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my...

Observable or not, it is. And anyone who is in Christ, anyone who is, or becomes, part of the Church, becomes part of the Kingdom. Wouldn't you say?

No. Regardless of what you repeatedly try and represent people here of doing, those of us who believe in 'the great there after', for want of a better term, do so based solely on scriptural text, rather than mankind's 'apparent' ability to seek and see 'magical' elements in life. Proof? You...

"Israel" is the elect...or Christ, even. The elect began being mostly Jews, in the OT, as it was God's plan to bring his Messiah and word through that people. After Christ the majority of his elect come from Gentiles, although some still come from the Jewish people. I simply believe that the...

It doesn't automatically mean that 7 HAS to be literal either, does it? And yet Dispensationalists insist it does. For what reason? If 7 is used throughout scripture to signal both 7 and also completeness and perfect, then shouldn't any responsible exegete come to a passage with that knowledge...

I'm sorry...how does national conversion contradict "my kingdom is not of this world"? We are all members of that Kingdom...which is not of this world. If the Jews came to Christ in large numbers, they would belong to this Kingdom as well, wouldn't they? And yes...they would 'abandon...

I actually agree with this. But is there anything in scripture that says that large numbers of the 'state' of Jews will not, at some point in time, come to Christ in a great revival? Already now we are seeing large numbers of Jewish people come to Jesus as their Messiah. I simply believe that...

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I actually get the point behind all that. All I know is this: when reading Romans 9-11, Paul clearly distinguishes between Gentiles and Israel. Even after making his point that "true Israel" are those who are of the faith, not blood, he still goes on to call national...

I think we've done this dance before...talking about the symbolic use of numbers. So there's no point rehashing everything, really. I suppose the one thing I would ask is: how is it that even Dispensational teachers will openly admit that numbers hold symbolic meaning...like the number 7 meaning...