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Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John. Irenaeus said Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4 Chapter 41. 3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited...

Clement of Rome was Paul's travelling companion and is mentioned in Philippians 3. 3 And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life. (Phil. 4:3 NKJ) He said this...

Is Israel living in safety in the Land of Promise? It sure doesn't look like it. That prophecy is about Israel receiving the promised land. That won't happen until the resurrection. The land was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead and never received...

You're welcome The Barrd! It is troublesome that many are taught today to just proof text. Sometimes I think it may have been better if they never added the verse numbers. At least that way people would have to read the text to find the passages they were looking for.

You know "olam" and "aionios" don't mean eternal. Ah, you're claiming to know people's minds again. You don't know who believes and who doesn't. Jesus knew who believed because the Father told Him. Jesus said some believed for a while and in time of temptation fall away. You can continue to...

Hi FHII, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I've heard and understand their perspective, I have for years. The problem is that the arguments are either fallacious or use Scripture passages out of context. I've not seen anyone in arguing for OSAS lay out a logical argument for the doctrine...

Who was that covenant made to? You've got to keep it in context. 27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me? 28 "Therefore thus says the LORD:`Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon...

Only if they are believers. If they change their minds and stop believing they are no longer believers thus no forever.

He has no argument which is why I believe he responded with that statement. There is no argument for OSAS because it's not what the Scriptures teach. There are warnings in Scripture for the believer to stay the course and not turn away. However, OSAS supports won't address the turning away...

Who is Paul addressing? BELIEVERS. That is not the issue

Your refusal to present a cogent argument indicates to me that you have none. Yes, I understand what He did. However, looking at the doctrine you're espousing it doesn't appear that you do.That you asked the question suggests to me an attempt to distract from the real issue. As I've said, I...

To those who read but don't post, note the lack of any cogent argument for the support of OSAS.

How do you continue to purpose to know the minds or people you don't know?

No it's not. God promised salvation to those who believe. He didn't promise it to those who used to believe or those who pretend they believe or anyone else. And, the passages in John that you guys keep quoting are in the present tense. The one who "is believing". We know from Jesus words that...

I understand that that's an arbitrary statement. I can just as easily state, "yes they did". That's the problem with arbitrary statements they can easily be reversed. The real problem is that you purport to know the heart and mind of someone you don't even know. How could you possibly know...

ATP, why won't you address the issue? This is what I was talking about when we were discussing this in pm's. The issue is not what Christ did, it's not what God did, it's what does. We see that people change their minds every day about all kinds of things. There is no reason to believe that...

I gave you definition of begging the question, thus you should know this is not it.

Irrational? That's interesting with the arguments you made. The dead are alive, how is that rational. Not only is it not rational it's illogical. Now, to what I said. When I said they cannot kill the life, I expalined what i meant (I know crazy concept right). Yes they kill the person. However...

The doctrine cannot do anything. Like ATP you keep posting passages about believers. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that a believer will not be saved. Again, the issue is the one who stops believing. You guys continue to avoid this subject.We know that people can change their minds...

How many times should I repeat this? The promise is to the one who "is believing". There is no promise to the one who "used" to believe/ Jesus stated it plainly. Some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. They are the word of God the Father himself. Why do you guys continue...