“It is finished!” (John 19:30)

[Episkopos]

Ronald, I see it very differently. You believe Jesus was made sin and that the Father punished Him as our sin. But was Jesus actually sin? And did the Father really abandon Him?

When Jesus cried, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” He was quoting Psalm 22:1: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” We have to remember that Jesus often used the Scriptures this way. He knew the Psalms and used them to point people to what was being fulfilled before their eyes.

Jesus was saying....My God My God why have you ENTANGLED Me. Jesus was combining 2 verses....from Ps 22 an Gen 22. The genius of God is that He keeps going deeper into the meaning of prophecy.

In Gen 22 we see a ram that God Himself provided caught in a thicket. The Hebrew word for thicket in the text is "sevach" or..basvach as in..."in the thicket". The VERB that describes being entangled like the ram in the thicket is "sabach". This meaning still holds true in Israel today.

So then when Jesus says sabachtani...He is saying that HE is the ram caught in the thicket as God's sacrifice.

That's why Jesus wore a crown of thorns. It represents Him caught in the thicket.

And I agree with you that God did not condemn Jesus as a sinner not even in a pretend way. The bible says...God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself. He was made to be sinful by evil men....not God


Blessings from Montreal <><

 

[LoveYeshua]

Jesus was saying....My God My God why have you ENTANGLED Me. Jesus was combining 2 verses....from Ps 22 an Gen 22. The genius of God is that He keeps going deeper into the meaning of prophecy.

In Gen 22 we see a ram that God Himself provided caught in a thicket. The Hebrew word for thicket in the text is "sevach" or..basvach as in..."in the thicket". The VERB that describes being entangled like the ram in the thicket is "sabach". This meaning still holds true in Israel today.

So then when Jesus says sabachtani...He is saying that HE is the ram caught in the thicket as God's sacrifice.

That's why Jesus wore a crown of thorns. It represents Him caught in the thicket.

And I agree with you that God did not condemn Jesus as a sinner not even in a pretend way. The bible says...God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself. He was made to be sinful by evil men....not God


Blessings from Montreal <><

interesting thank you!, ill look at it closer also like you said and I agree completely we have to look deeper, always something to learn.

I lived in Montreal several years ago still traffic? orange cones all over? LOL

 

[Episkopos]

interesting thank you!, ill look at it closer also like you said and I agree completely we have to look deeper, always something to learn.

I lived in Montreal several years ago still traffic? orange cones all over? LOL

LOL I escaped to the south shore...smaller city. :) Winter and construction.

Are you still in the Montreal region?

 

[LoveYeshua]

LOL I escaped to the south shore...smaller city. :) Winter and construction.

Are you still in the Montreal region?

nope eastern townships, also in a small town

Cheers

 

[PeterAndroz]

You have to study more Peter did say Paul is hard to understand did he not? do you think I make this up?

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I see examples of people twisting Paul's words every single day!

READ MORE! Paul is not easy!

Hard to understand for them
That's why Christ by revelation Gal 2:2 sent Paul to them to explain to them the Gospel Gal 1:11-12 that Christ taught Paul.
For us its simple
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Col 2:13 with the performance requirements being Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Are you claiming Paul has got it wrong ???

 

[LoveYeshua]

Hard to understand for them
That's why Christ by revelation Gal 2:2 sent Paul to them to explain to them the Gospel Gal 1:11-12 that Christ taught Paul.
For us its simple
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Col 2:13 with the performance requirements being Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Are you claiming Paul has got it wrong ???

Just remember peterAndroz, that Paul preached the same thing Jesus did. if something is missing or seem off Listen to Jesus and compare, always compare. Some, but I should say many, get what Paul says the wrong way and its important to get it right. there is only one truth. The words of Jesus are truth and eternal life, they are the only ones that saves.

We all have to remember that Paul’s epistles were written for specific churches. The recipients already had a solid foundation in the Christian faith. Although some letters addressed Gentile believers, they were written to established communities and their leaders, people who already knew many things about Jesus and the basic teachings of Christianity. This is important because Paul wrote from a position of deep knowledge and education. He was trained in Jewish Scripture and theology, familiar with Greek and Roman culture, and skilled in rhetoric and argumentation. Therefore, his letters often assume that readers understood certain beliefs, events, and teachings that he does not explain in detail. To interpret Paul accurately, we should consider not only what he wrote, but also what he already knew, what his original audience knew, and the specific problems each church was facing. It is why Paul is complicates and definitely NOT easy.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald scripture is ususlly clear . Jesus' words are crystal clear, Paul's are not easy to understand and unfortunately confuse many, I know I was one of them, for 20 plus years I stopped reading the Holy bible because I saw or taught I saw contradictions with what Christ was saying. on that, I learned this lesson : Jesus is the truth in all things . If Paul seem to say something else its because we did not understand. If you see a contradiction, The words of Christ have precedence, Why? because is is one with God and his words are eternal life.

Blessings.

There is no contradictions. You are just not reading Pauls passage correctly!

2 Corinthians 5:21

King James Version

​

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus knew no sin! He lived a sinless life.

But God made Jesus to be sin- so we would be made the righteousness of God inHIm., We have no righteousness in ourselves but God made us righteous just as He made Jesus to be sin.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Just remember peterAndroz, that Paul preached the same thing Jesus did. if something is missing or seem off Listen to Jesus and compare, always compare. Some, but I should say many, get what Paul says the wrong way and its important to get it right. there is only one truth. The words of Jesus are truth and eternal life, they are the only ones that saves.

We all have to remember that Paul’s epistles were written for specific churches. The recipients already had a solid foundation in the Christian faith. Although some letters addressed Gentile believers, they were written to established communities and their leaders, people who already knew many things about Jesus and the basic teachings of Christianity. This is important because Paul wrote from a position of deep knowledge and education. He was trained in Jewish Scripture and theology, familiar with Greek and Roman culture, and skilled in rhetoric and argumentation. Therefore, his letters often assume that readers understood certain beliefs, events, and teachings that he does not explain in detail. To interpret Paul accurately, we should consider not only what he wrote, but also what he already knew, what his original audience knew, and the specific problems each church was facing. It is why Paul is complicates and definitely NOT easy.

"Just remember peterAndroz, that Paul preached the same thing Jesus did""
Just remember LY,
Gal 1:11-12 ONLY Jesus taught Paul the gospel which Jesus Gal 2:2 sent Paul to the 12 to explain.
It it was IDENTICAL, then why did Christ need to send PAul to the 12 ?

 

[LoveYeshua]

"Just remember peterAndroz, that Paul preached the same thing Jesus did""
Just remember LY,
Gal 1:11-12 ONLY Jesus taught Paul the gospel which Jesus Gal 2:2 sent Paul to the 12 to explain.
It it was IDENTICAL, then why did Christ need to send PAul to the 12 ?

Read all the texts in Acts to find out it is complex and i dont have to explain here but you do, not me.

 

[חוכמה]

Now that we are discussing Paul, can someone explain this to me clearly: Jesus taught us that He came to divide us, he didn’t come to bring peace but the sword. I see no other way to interpet that as to obey His teachings and resist whatever the world is doing, including your family and friends .
But Paul comes and says that we should blend in, don’t make a fuss about people’s customs and what they eat and drink etc. , basically not to be a nuisance but to adapt.
How do we reconcile these things?

 

[Episkopos]

Now that we are discussing Paul, can someone explain this to me clearly: Jesus taught us that He came to divide us, he didn’t come to bring peace but the sword. I see no other way to interpet that as to obey His teachings and resist whatever the world is doing, including your family and friends .

This is good. It also means dividing between those who champion the inner man and those who champion the outer man IN THE CHURCH.

But Paul comes and says that we should blend in, don’t make a fuss about people’s customs and what they eat and drink etc. , basically not to be a nuisance but to adapt.

As much as possible be at peace with all men. God could be sending you somebody you aren't expecting.

How do we reconcile these things?

And why does your username have an extra vav? Do you read Hebrew?

 

[חוכמה]

Thank you for your reply Episkopos. I try to read Hebrew from time to time, but i’m slacking in my lessons, it’s so time consuming.

Being at peace with another is comfortable, but what if they are sinning? Should we eat pork with people just to keep the peace? I try to neither correct them or eat it. Same for other things. Don’t know if that’s the way though.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Now that we are discussing Paul, can someone explain this to me clearly: Jesus taught us that He came to divide us, he didn’t come to bring peace but the sword. I see no other way to interpet that as to obey His teachings and resist whatever the world is doing, including your family and friends .
But Paul comes and says that we should blend in, don’t make a fuss about people’s customs and what they eat and drink etc. , basically not to be a nuisance but to adapt.
How do we reconcile these things?

Jesus said:

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.” (Matthew 10:34–37)

Of course, Jesus is not telling us to fight with people or cause trouble. He is telling us that following Him will sometimes divide us from our own family and friends because they may not accept what He teaches.

So yes, we should live in peace with people when we can, but not by compromising what Jesus taught. If keeping peace means going against Jesus, then we have to choose Jesus.

He made this very clear:

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

We are here to follow Jesus, not to blend in with the world just so everyone will be comfortable with us.

 

[חוכמה]

@LoveYeshua indeed I know we should put His commandments first above all. That’s why I sometimes struggle with things Paul wrote. I never struggle with Jesus’ words, because He is the one we follow.

 

[JimKnox]

ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Tim 3:16 ( KJB)

Seems to me that there are quite a few folks who forget this. Paul DOES not contradict Jesus, nor does Peter contradict Paul.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD.
God can't contradict Himself. It is not that He doesn't: it is the HE CAN NOT. He is not ABLE to contradict Himself. That would be against His nature. It would be like asking a dog to fly. Not gonna happen.

Jesus said "It is finished".
Paul explains, "He was made to BE sin who knew no sin......"
And THAT is the mystery of God.

 

[JimKnox]

You have to study more Peter did say Paul is hard to understand did he not? do you think I make this up?

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I see examples of people twisting Paul's words every single day!

READ MORE! Paul is not easy!

You may be a staff member but you are teaching false doctrine and must be corrected.
2 Tim 3:16-17.

 

[David in NJ]

It is blasphemy to no t think that way.

Now you tie up the Corinthian letters which God gave for all the church! You hide secret messages in there and ignore the plain simple words God Himself inspired to be written.

He (God) made HIim(Jesus). So Jesus was MADE something He was not otherwise was! What was Jesus made? To be sin for us. Jesus became sin. It does not say Jesus was a sinner or started sinning- it says that jesus was made something He was not ! Sin. FOR US! Why? so that we would become the righteousness of God in Him.

You are too narrow focused and do not see the depth of love That Teh Father and Son have for us.

Sin has to be punished and jesus was punished in our place on the cross! that is why He cried "My god, My god , why have you utterly abandoned me? Because He was sin at that point and god was punishing sin in Jesus! God made Him to be that in the eternal counsel of the God head!

You need to pray to see this and open your heart to the deep seated abiding love that God has for us His children.

If you want nothing more to do with me---FINE ! Have the last word! But do not do no t d o not sell God short at what took place at Calvary!

Very Good post Ronald

Just make one correction = your statement below

Because He was sin at that point and god was punishing sin in Jesus!

God was not punishing sin in Jesus - for Jesus committed no sin

God placed our sins upon the body of JESUS = Romans 8:3

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

SHALOM

 

[PeterAndroz]

Read all the texts in Acts to find out it is complex and i dont have to explain here but you do, not me.

Read ALL THE TEXTS in Acts & work out which ones apply to you today