“The Flesh”—Physical Body and “The Flesh”—Sinful Nature

[Netchaplain]

The Old Testament uses the word “flesh” to mean only one thing—the physical body, because it was not until Christ that the “flesh”—sinful nature—was addressed with the application of being finally “condemned” (Rom 8:3).

For example, the phrase in the above reference, “sinful flesh,” does not mean the physical body, this would conflict with “you are not in the flesh” (Rom 8:9), meaning you are no longer living for or after the dominion of the sinful nature, but rather for or after “the Holy Spirit.”

The concept that the physical body is sinful or evil is a misunderstanding, and reasonably so when considering the often obscurity of Scripture. It is the nature which determines good or evil of a spirit (person), the body just manifests what the spirit is, thus the body is subject to the person, whether it will be used for good or evil.

Examples:

“In the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom 8:3); “Which expresses the reality of His incarnation, of His having a true real human nature; for flesh is not to be taken strictly for a part of the body, nor for the whole body only, but for the whole human nature, soul and body; which though it looked like a sinful nature, yet was not sinful.

“The likeness of it denotes the outward appearance of Christ in it; who was born of a sinful woman (Rom 3:23); was subject to the infirmities of human nature, which though not sinful, are the effects of sin; was reckoned among transgressors, was traduced as one Himself by men, and treated as such by the justice of God; He having all the sins of His people on him, for which He was answerable.” JG

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof” (Rom 6:12). “The ye should obey it” (I believe “it” is in reference, not to the body but to sin). I believe “the lusts thereof” is “the body of sin” (Rom 6:6), which pertains to the sinful nature, thus these are “your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry” (Col 3:5).

Reference: “Flesh,” Strong’s G4561, sarx, IV. The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

 

[day]

The Old Testament uses the word “flesh” to mean only one thing—the physical body, because it was not until Christ that the “flesh”—sinful nature—was addressed with the application of being finally “condemned” (Rom 8:3).

The concept that the physical body is sinful or evil is a misunderstanding, and reasonably so when considering the often obscurity of Scripture. It is the nature which determines good or evil of a spirit (person), the body just manifests what the spirit is, thus the body is subject to the person, whether it will be used for good or evil.

I agree that the Old Testament uses the word "flesh" to mean the physical body and does not view it as sinful or evil. It is the interpreting of Scripture using Greek philosophy that creates the dualism of evil flesh and good spirit. I like your statement "...the body is subject to the person (spirit) whether it will be used for good or evil". Sinful flesh or sinful nature is the use of the body differently than God desires us to use it as his spiritual children. Sin exists in the will which is spiritual, not in the material body.
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[veteran]

The Old Testament uses the word “flesh” to mean only one thing—the physical body, because it was not until Christ that the “flesh”—sinful nature—was addressed with the application of being finally “condemned” (Rom 8:3).

For example, the phrase in the above reference, “sinful flesh,” does not mean the physical body, this would conflict with “you are not in the flesh” (Rom 8:9), meaning you are no longer living for or after the dominion of the sinful nature, but rather for or after “the Holy Spirit.”

The concept that the physical body is sinful or evil is a misunderstanding, and reasonably so when considering the often obscurity of Scripture. It is the nature which determines good or evil of a spirit (person), the body just manifests what the spirit is, thus the body is subject to the person, whether it will be used for good or evil.

Examples:

“In the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom 8:3); “Which expresses the reality of His incarnation, of His having a true real human nature; for flesh is not to be taken strictly for a part of the body, nor for the whole body only, but for the whole human nature, soul and body; which though it looked like a sinful nature, yet was not sinful.

“The likeness of it denotes the outward appearance of Christ in it; who was born of a sinful woman (Rom 3:23); was subject to the infirmities of human nature, which though not sinful, are the effects of sin; was reckoned among transgressors, was traduced as one Himself by men, and treated as such by the justice of God; He having all the sins of His people on him, for which He was answerable.” JG

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof” (Rom 6:12). “The ye should obey it” (I believe “it” is in reference, not to the body but to sin). I believe “the lusts thereof” is “the body of sin” (Rom 6:6), which pertains to the sinful nature, thus these are “your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry” (Col 3:5).

Reference: “Flesh,” Strong’s G4561, sarx, IV. The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

In reality much of that reasoning is confusion.

One must first understand how God's Word defines our individual makeup, how He created us. Per Eccl.12:5-7 we KNOW our flesh body is just a shell for our spirit with soul, and that at flesh death our flesh goes back to the elements of earthly matter where it originated. But our spirit part (with soul) goes back to God Who gave it, as written.

This is why our Lord Jesus would say in Matt.22:30 that in the resurrection they are "as the angels of God in heaven." for we know the angelic state does not involve a flesh body. It's also why He would say in John 3 that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit, making a clear dividing line between the two orders.

In later Bible translations like the NIV, they have replaced the KJV idea about this difference between our flesh part and our spirit part, using such terms like 'sin nature', etc. They have hidden a major truth in God's Word by those kind of humanist phrases.

When Apostle Paul is teaching to consider our flesh as already dead with Christ's crucifixion, he is making a distinction with our living in our flesh now while seeking to obey The Holy Spirit, walking by The Spirit instead of our flesh.

And our flesh most definitely does... impart temptations and urgings that work against our spirit if... we allow it, even as Paul and Peter also said (1 Peter 2:11; Gal.5:16-21).

 

[Netchaplain]

I agree that the Old Testament uses the word "flesh" to mean the physical body and does not view it as sinful or evil. It is the interpreting of Scripture using Greek philosophy that creates the dualism of evil flesh and good spirit. I like your statement "...the body is subject to the person (spirit) whether it will be used for good or evil". Sinful flesh or sinful nature is the use of the body differently than God desires us to use it as his spiritual children. Sin exists in the will which is spiritual, not in the material body.
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Hi Day - Thanks for your reply. Along the line of your concept, I would like to comment that the "sin exists," not necessarily in the will as much as it is in the nature of the will. This is taking into consideration that the will is the deciding factor of the soul, which is orchestrated by its prominent nature, which for the believer is the "new man" or new nature--by the Spirit (Eph 3:16; GaL 5:17). The unbeliever still has only the one nature--old man.

Hope this reply didn't appear competitive but instructional for us both. God's blessings to your Family!
.

And our flesh most definitely does... impart temptations and urgings that work against our spirit if... we allow it, even as Paul and Peter also said (1 Peter 2:11; Gal.5:16-21).

Hi Vet - Trust all has been well with your Family and I always appreciate your replies because you use Scripture, which gives us a base to work from.

I agree that our physical bodies are used in our temptations, but I believe accountability cannot be attributed to them, any more than blaming a instrument for the users error, i. e. writing something wrong is not the pen's fault, but the writer's.

The physical body doesn't incur wrongfulness but just manifests it in the doing. This is the fault of the person's decision, which is directed by his nature. James wrote that "when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin" (Jam 1:5). The instruction here is the word "conceived" and is where accountability lies.

For the believer, the wrongs of the sinful nature are against the desires of the believer to do wrong (Rom 7:15, 17, 20) and thus the "deeds of the body" eventually become that of "instruments of righteousness" instead of "unrighteousness" (Rom 6:13).

"Abstaining from fleshly lusts" (1 Pet 2:11) is done through us by the Spirit (Rom 8:13) and this is called "walking in the Spirit," because it's being done by Him--through us.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet - Trust all has been well with your Family and I always appreciate your replies because you use Scripture, which gives us a base to work from.

Thank you, and my hope of the same for you and yours.

I agree that our physical bodies are used in our temptations, but I believe accountability cannot be attributed to them, any more than blaming a instrument for the users error, i. e. writing something wrong is not the pen's fault, but the writer's.

Our flesh body actually has... lusts, urges all its own. Don't eat for a few days and see how your flesh rebels. Our flesh body has passions that are difficult to control. And when we introduce our flesh to something it likes, it produces urges for more. Where accountability comes is by self-control by our spirit over our flesh body. Thus there is NO glorifying of the flesh idea in God's Word.

Rom 6:5-8
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
(KJV)

Is Apostle Paul just speaking metaphorically there, or is he also speaking of the realites of the flesh body and this present world?

Like Eccl.12:5-7 showed us early on in God's Word, when our flesh dies it goes back to the earthly matter where it came from. It is destroyed, no longer needed. That is "the body of sin" Paul is talking about there above. This is why Paul then says, "For he that is dead is freed from sin".

While we are here in the flesh, we aren't to worship it thinking it has some hidden Salvation property, for it has none. Our hope is not of a new flesh body either, but a hope to be clothed upon with our body from Heaven, a "spiritual body" is what Paul called it.

The physical body doesn't incur wrongfulness but just manifests it in the doing. This is the fault of the person's decision, which is directed by his nature. James wrote that "when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin" (Jam 1:5). The instruction here is the word "conceived" and is where accountability lies.

Oh yes our flesh body does... "incur wrongfulness". What made king David sin against God in causing the Hittite to be put in front of battle so he would be killed? What urge of the flesh body caused David to do that? David simply failed to overcome the urge of his flesh in that sin, and that's how accountability then comes in. The urge of the flesh presented itself first.

For the believer, the wrongs of the sinful nature are against the desires of the believer to do wrong (Rom 7:15, 17, 20) and thus the "deeds of the body" eventually become that of "instruments of righteousness" instead of "unrighteousness" (Rom 6:13).

"Abstaining from fleshly lusts" (1 Pet 2:11) is done through us by the Spirit (Rom 8:13) and this is called "walking in the Spirit," because it's being done by Him--through us.

The KJV Bible and Bible manuscripts are more specific as to the 'flesh' being the first cause of most of our lusts, and not some philosophical "sinful nature" idea that no one can put their finger on.

Paul pretty much summed it up here...
Rom 6:12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(KJV)

That's simply about the matter of self-control over our flesh bodily desires and lusts, and instead putting our flesh to use for God's purposes. It does not mean our flesh body becomes righteous, but only a 'tool' for doing righteousness when our 'spirit' is in control over it.

With that Apostle Paul is showing us a very deep mystery also. He is showing us that righteousness does not originate from our flesh, but from our 'spirit' as we obey God by The Holy Spirit. It makes certain that our flesh body indeed is "the body of sin" that must be destroyed forever in order to live with Christ forever.
1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

 

[Netchaplain]

Thank you, and my hope of the same for you and yours.
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Like Eccl.12:5-7 showed us early on in God's Word, when our flesh dies it goes back to the earthly matter where it came from. It is destroyed, no longer needed. That is "the body of sin" Paul is talking about there above. This is why Paul then says, "For he that is dead is freed from sin".


NetChaplain wrote: I believe addressing this one issue will address all the issues in your reply. The "body of sin" is the sinful nature and is referred to as such, because as a physical body has its members (hand, tongue, etc.), the sinful nature also has its members: "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5).

 

[Purity]

While you hold the false doctrine of immortal soulism you will all be out at sea on this subject.

 

[Netchaplain]

While you hold the false doctrine of immortal soulism you will all be out at sea on this subject.

Hi Purity - I appreciate your reply, but not sure of your meaning. I only have a small idea of your intention. God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Purity]

Hi Purity - I appreciate your reply, but not sure of your meaning. I only have a small idea of your intention. God's blessings to your Family!

If your foundation is incorrect how will you correctly discern truth on this subject. It matters not what you believe if you possess God's spirit and in you is already something deemed immortal.

Why would you even be concerned with this subject at all if you possess an immortal soul?

 

[veteran]

NetChaplain wrote: I believe addressing this one issue will address all the issues in your reply. The "body of sin" is the sinful nature and is referred to as such, because as a physical body has its members (hand, tongue, etc.), the sinful nature also has its members: "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5).

The object Apostle Paul spoke of is our 'flesh body'. Don't allow the NIV translators to fool you with their terms like "sinful nature".

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

The word for KJV "flesh" there in the Greek NT manuscripts is the word sarx, and it literally... means the 'flesh'.

 

[Netchaplain]

The object Apostle Paul spoke of is our 'flesh body'. Don't allow the NIV translators to fool you with their terms like "sinful nature".

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

The word for KJV "flesh" there in the Greek NT manuscripts is the word sarx, and it literally... means the 'flesh'.

My Brother and friend, nearly all Greek words have multiple definitions, as all words usually do, and it's the subject within the context that determines the meaning. "Sarx" has four Greek definitions and in this usage it is the fourth of Strong's transliteration.

[SIZE=14pt]IV.[/SIZE] The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God. http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4561&t=KJV

It's very common for many to interpret flesh to mean physical body when it intends spiritual nature, thus the reason of this thread. I believe if the physical body were the design for this rendering, it would conflict with the concept that the physical body is not evil (just used for evil, or good) and would admit, among numerous other truths that the Holy Spirit dwells is a sin-filled temple, which is not the design.

The evil does not originate from the body (which is just an instrument) but from the spirit's soul (the decision element)--which is determined by its nature; "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Purity]

The object Apostle Paul spoke of is our 'flesh body'. Don't allow the NIV translators to fool you with their terms like "sinful nature".

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

The word for KJV "flesh" there in the Greek NT manuscripts is the word sarx, and it literally... means the 'flesh'.

Please define for us the "no good thing"

Purity

 

[veteran]

My Brother and friend, nearly all Greek words have multiple definitions, as all words usually do, and it's the subject within the context that determines the meaning. "Sarx" has four Greek definitions and in this usage it is the fourth of Strong's transliteration.

[SIZE=14pt]IV.[/SIZE] The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God. http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4561&t=KJV

It's very common for many to interpret flesh to mean physical body when it intends spiritual nature, thus the reason of this thread. I believe if the physical body were the design for this rendering, it would conflict with the concept that the physical body is not evil (just used for evil, or good) and would admit, among numerous other truths that the Holy Spirit dwells is a sin-filled temple, which is not the design.

The evil does not originate from the body (which is just an instrument) but from the spirit's soul (the decision element)--which is determined by its nature; "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God's blessings to your Family!

Like Jesus said, that which is born of flesh IS... flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). They are two totally separate and distinct orders of operation per God's Holy Writ. It makes no sense trying to confuse the two just because the occultists like to think they can attain 'perfection' of their flesh, because they cannot.

That is one of the reasons why the NIV uses the idea "sinful nature", because it is a translation from a different set of New Testament manuscripts from Alexandria, Egypt, and not the Majority Texts that are evidenced in majority usage by the early Christian Churches in history.

The physical flesh body is not evil, it's just a tool or instrument, like you said. It can be used for good or bad.

One's spirit can sin beyond the flesh too, which is especially shown by Satan's original rebellion of old in wanting to be GOD. But that no reason to create confusion by thinking our flesh could ever be or become perfect, for it cannot.

Like I said, it's the occultists who think to become perfect in their flesh, thinking they can become their own gods, and their scientists are ever trying to create ways to prolong the life of their flesh body and make it immortal.


Apostle Paul was very clear on this matter, and you should listen to him...

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

Notice in the above, Apostle Paul says no way can flesh and blood inherit the Kingdom of God; just as "corruption" cannot inherit "incorruption" either. Paul's idea of "corruption" is put for the flesh body.

Please define for us the "no good thing"

Purity

Paul's idea there is about our flesh body as an instrument created to be destroyed. It was created for this world which is reserved to destruction by fire. It is in the same sense as this phrase in bold...

1 Cor 6:13
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
(KJV)

 

[Netchaplain]

Like Jesus said, that which is born of flesh IS... flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).

That is one of the reasons why the NIV uses the idea "sinful nature", because it is a translation from a different set of New Testament manuscripts from Alexandria, Egypt, and not the Majority Texts that are evidenced in majority usage by the early Christian Churches in history.

Like I said, it's the occultists who think to become perfect in their flesh,

Again, that's what I like about your posts, they are Scriptural and subject applicable. My understanding of John 3:6 is that it is related to man's conception as opposed to Christ's conception. He was the only One to be conceived by the Holy Spirit (only begotten of the Father), we were begotten of Adam and Eve. Therefore being conceived by the Spirit, Jesus could not incur the "old man" (sin nature) which results being conceived of the natural, instead of the spiritual.

The physical body in this life is still under the "law of sin" and is not good or bad because it is a physical object, but God will finally redeem it and change it into the new glorified body. (Rom 8:11; Phil 3:21). The good and bad is what's in the body, not the body itself.

 

[veteran]

Again, that's what I like about your posts, they are Scriptural and subject applicable. My understanding of John 3:6 is that it is related to man's conception as opposed to Christ's conception. He was the only One to be conceived by the Holy Spirit (only begotten of the Father), we were begotten of Adam and Eve. Therefore being conceived by the Spirit, Jesus could not incur the "old man" (sin nature) which results being conceived of the natural, instead of the spiritual.

The physical body in this life is still under the "law of sin" and is not good or bad because it is a physical object, but God will finally redeem it and change it into the new glorified body. (Rom 8:11; Phil 3:21). The good and bad is what's in the body, not the body itself.

Yes, I well understand how one can be guilty of sin by their spirit independent of our flesh. But that is not the idea those like Apostle Paul was always talking about. The NIV took license in translating anything that pointed to the flesh body in that matter as "sinful nature". That phrase does not distinguish between sin that our flesh body's urges can cause. The KJV translation makes it clear when the idea of literal flesh is involved, the NIV does not, which shows the NIV as more of a philosophical/political translation.

Where this matter's confusion really gets bad with translations like the NIV, is with the idea of flesh death and the resurrection. There are just enough places in the KJV to make the unlearned think they are going to get a new flesh body in the resurrection when that is not the real meaning at all...

Rom 8:23
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(KJV)

 

[Netchaplain]

There are just enough places in the KJV to make the unlearned think they are going to get a new flesh body in the resurrection when that is not the real meaning at all...

I believe we will have the same glorified body Jesus had and still has. Physically incorruptible flesh and bone, etc. (Luke 24:39).

I think Jesus retaining the glorified body (physical/spiritual) will be an everlasting memento to His relating with us.

 

[veteran]

I believe we will have the same glorified body Jesus had and still has. Physically incorruptible flesh and bone, etc. (Luke 24:39).

I think Jesus retaining the glorified body (physical/spiritual) will be an everlasting memento to His relating with us.

Flesh and bone cannot suddenly appear and disappear like our Lord Jesus did in His transfigured body. To think that flesh and blood can do that is to be confused between the bounds of this present world and the bounds of the Heavenly.

God's Word reveals that those of the resurrection will have a body of "incorruption", what Apostle Paul called "a spiritual body" in the 1 Cor.15 Scripture. It looks like flesh, feels like flesh, can eat man's food, live and walk upon this earth, but it is not of the earth but of Spirit.

 

[Netchaplain]

Flesh and bone cannot suddenly appear and disappear like our Lord Jesus did in His transfigured body. To think that flesh and blood can do that is to be confused between the bounds of this present world and the bounds of the Heavenly.

God's Word reveals that those of the resurrection will have a body of "incorruption", what Apostle Paul called "a spiritual body" in the 1 Cor.15 Scripture. It looks like flesh, feels like flesh, can eat man's food, live and walk upon this earth, but it is not of the earth but of Spirit.

I agree Brother, this "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," but it will be "changed" into a similar body that will.

 

[veteran]

I agree Brother, this "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," but it will be "changed" into a similar body that will.

There's so much more I wish I could share about this, but it's just not possible with most today who are so attached to their flesh that their understanding of things spiritual is clouded.

 

[Purity]

Paul's idea there is about our flesh body as an instrument created to be destroyed. It was created for this world which is reserved to destruction by fire. It is in the same sense as this phrase in bold...

1 Cor 6:13
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
(KJV)

I agree this body has no long term purpose with God other than providing a means by which we can be tested and tried with fire then judgement to see how our probation fared.

What then of the spiritual body?

How shall it be fashioned?