♫ We Ten Kings of Rev-a-la-tion ♫

[Bobby Jo]

But there had been at least seven kingdoms. And that is the distinction I'm making between the seven headed beast of John's prophecy and the four beasts of Daniel's prophecy.

The Voter Fraud Is Coming, Post #238

... and you're correct, History records MORE than Seven Kingdoms which existed prior to some 60AD. In fact, I'll bet there were tens if not hundreds of thousands of Kingdoms, Fifedoms, Communities, and Villages. -- But there were only FOUR World Empires between Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian Empire and the Roman, with THREE which were still in the future.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Well, I think I made it somewhat clear I'm going with the words of the angel that John recorded. I think you can throw that reference material you shared in the garbage. He seemed not to realize an angel was speaking these things, not John himself.

You have no clue. -- What you PRESUME is what the Abingdon can't substantiate. Thus they lay out the inconsistencies between what the Commentators assert, [AND YOU BELIEVE], -- versus what History documents.

So unless you can realize that your understanding is incorrect, then go your own way and believe what you Hope, Want, Think, -- in spite of what Scripture conveys!

Bobby Jo

 

[Ferris Bueller]

....... But there were only FOUR World Empires between Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian Empire and the Roman, with THREE which were still in the future.

Bobby Jo

How are you just deciding to add the THREE to Daniel's four beasts to make it the seven headed beast of John's prophecy? Are you just doing that to make Daniel's and John's prophecies line up instead of looking at them as distinct entities? Because the Bible does not do this addition. It's an assumption made by man.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You have no clue. -- What you PRESUME is what the Abingdon can't substantiate. Thus they lay out the inconsistencies between what the Commentators assert, [AND YOU BELIEVE], -- versus what History documents.

So unless you can realize that your understanding is incorrect, then go your own way and believe what you Hope, Want, Think, -- in spite of what Scripture conveys!

Bobby Jo

Why are you going with a commentary that makes John's prophecy an invention of his own doing (instead of the recorded words of an angel), and purposely done in a way by him for the purpose of selling it to the masses?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Who are the ten kings of prophecy? Who's the 7th king? Who's the eighth king?

Revelation 17:10-13
10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

Let's unpack it.

@Bobby Jo

The ten kings are fairly easy. they are ten kings who arise after the one world govt. phase of the fourth beast (Dan. 7), and rule the world.

The seven kings are harder.

I know that preterists and partial preterists hold it to be 8 cesars usually culminating with Nero. This is biblically untenable unless one allegorizes many verses to redefine them

The teaching I am most comfortable with (though I still am not fully convinced) but does the least amount of harm to SCripture is that this is the rise of the fourth beast kingdom of the time of the Gentiles which started with Rome.

These seven kings also equate to teh seven heads of teh Rev. beast.

So we see the development of the fourth beast kingdom ( which started with Rome) as thus:

1st head: Tarquin Kings 753-510 BC
2nd head: Counsulors 510-494 BC
3rd head Plebians or dictators 494-390 BC
4th head Republicans or decimvers 390-59 BC
5th head Triumverate 59-27 BC

These five were fallen. then comes the fourth beast empire which is IMperialism and starts with Rome
This is teh sixth or one that is.

Now we must add in Daniles vision of the stature for it adds more info about the sixth kingdom or fourth beast.

The united Stage 27BC-395 AD
the 2 divison stage 395 AD to present IMperialism has been in effect with 2 major world powers since the split of Rome.
3. The ten toes stage,
The antichrist stage which is the eleventh horn of Daniel and the eighth who is of the seven.

I see issues with this, but it is the best response I have seen that does the least harm to the Word of God as written.

 

[Bobby Jo]

How are you just deciding to add the THREE to Daniel's four beasts to make it the seven headed beast of John's prophecy? Are you just doing that to make Daniel's and John's prophecies line up instead of looking at them as distinct entities? Because the Bible does not do this addition. It's an assumption made by man.

Yep, you caught me. I got a DeLorean up to 88mph and changed word history:

The Voter Fraud Is Coming, Post #238:

Quote F/B:

Who is the 7th king? Who is the 8th king? Who are the 3 horns that get uprooted by the 11th horn? Is the great city, Babylon, that rules over the kings of the earth a literal city or figurative of something? Who or what is the beast coming out of the earth?​

Quote B/J:

Easy:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "Divided Kingdom"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a TIGER), China
-- 8. "Dreadful, United Nations -- "was and is not" because it's a PAPER entity with NO Populous, NO Geography, NO Army, etc.​

Trapped like a RAT. -- Yeah NOT!
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Why are you going with a commentary that makes John's prophecy an invention of his own doing ...

Either John (Scripture) is lying, or the Commentators are lying. And YOU believe the Commentators.

I believe that Scripture and History agree for a "Future-Present-Tense" interpretation. And History CLEARLY disagrees with your ANCIENT FULFILLMENT version:

“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]

[1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392​

So either believe the FALSE Ancient Fulfillment or whatever you want ...
Bobby Jo

 

[liafailrock]

Who are the ten kings of prophecy? Who's the 7th king? Who's the eighth king?

Revelation 17:10-13
10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

Let's unpack it.

@Bobby Jo

Can of worms or pandora's box? You just opened it here, but to everyone's credit, whether right, wrong, or partly right or wrong, at least we care enough to look into the end times, and for that I praise everyone here. My avatar there, Sir Isaac Newton, did not believe we fully understood prophecy until it came to pass to show God's hand in events. Prophecy is not to turn men into prophets. This is not to say that major components could not be understood enough to get a picture. We are talking details, and the identity of the 10 Kings (nations) are one of those. That all said, a quick and dirty answer could be psalm 83. Why? 1) It did not come to pass yet, and 2) what are they always saying about Israel? and 3) Asshur (Assyria) is mentioned. Various end time prophecies in the bible mention Assyria as the rod of God's anger. 4) Last of all, there's 10 nations mentioned there. It could be a coincidence, but if the passage was not to be considered, then Asaph could have been inspired to write a different number to nullify the possibility of considering it as the answer. BTW, some of that passage in Revelation you quoted are past Kings whereas the ten are co-existent with the beast.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... some of that passage in Revelation you quoted are past Kings whereas the ten are co-existent with the beast.

This is a misleading statement. -- Which "some"? Not ALL "some", just FOUR "some"; out of SEVEN total, understanding that the "TEN" coexist under the United Nations.

That is, unless you can re-write History to achieve a different result than already exists, -- THREE SUPERPOWERS and the UNITED NATIONS One-World-Government:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "Divided Kingdom"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a TIGER), China
-- 8. "Dreadful, United Nations -- "was and is not" because it's a PAPER entity with NO Populous, NO Geography, NO Army, etc.​

Bobby Jo

 

[Stumpmaster]

It's a four kingdom reign of man throughout history in Daniel. But in Revelation it's a beast with 7 heads (from which the 10 kings come). In Revelation chapter 12 this 7 headed beast with 10 horns (but no crowns—the crowns are on the heads instead) exists at the time of Christ's birth, but is then cast down to the earth. Apparently, the death and resurrection of Christ caused this casting down of the 7 headed beast. Then in Revelation chapter 13 the 7 headed beast rises from the sea but now the crowns are on the 10 horns. I wonder if this 7 headed beast is the 4th kingdom of Daniel instead of all 4 kingdoms of Daniel expanding into the 7 heads of the 7 headed beast of Revelation?

Ferris, The Dragon in Rev 12 and the Beast from the Sea in Rev 13 are different entities. Also the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, namely Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, are zoomed in on in the Book of Daniel whereas the Book of Revelation (not Rev-A-lation) gives a panoramic view.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the Book of Revelation (not Rev-A-lation)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ferris, The Dragon in Rev 12 and the Beast from the Sea in Rev 13 are different entities.

How so? Does the Bible itself say that in some way? Or is it an assumption? Just asking? I have no agenda here. I'm learning with everyone else.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Also the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, namely Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, are zoomed in on in the Book of Daniel whereas the Book of Revelation (not Rev-A-lation) gives a panoramic view.

I agree with that at this point.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sir Isaac Newton, did not believe we fully understood prophecy until it came to pass to show God's hand in events.

I came to that same conclusion myself many years ago. Prophecy is given not to know what will happen exactly, but to reveal what is happening when it happens.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, ...

FIVE Kingdoms:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

... and ...

Dan. 2: 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom ...​

... now it's quite obvious that we CURRENTLY have a "Divided Kingdom" consisting of THREE SUPERPOWERS and a UNITED NATIONS.


Or maybe History DOESN'T have to match Scripture, and that Alice can BELIEVE WHAT COMES INTO HER IMAGINATION.
Bobby Jo

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Either John (Scripture) is lying, or the Commentators are lying. And YOU believe the Commentators.

No, I am going with the Bible, not the commentary you posted that attributes what the angel said to John as being from John himself and fabricated by John so as to lend credence to it. So I don't care what that commentary says. Because it can't even see that John is relating the words of the angel speaking to him, not writing his own prophecy. Now if you want to share his pov as your own that's fine. We'll examine it in the light of scripture. But don't think it's somehow authoritative and accurate just because it's some kind of official commentary.

Here's the passage of scripture. The angel is speaking this prophecy, not John......

Revelation 17:7
7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.
8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.


Now compare that to the commentary you posted and what Einstein, Frederick, and Lewis say who's speaking.....

“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]

[1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392

So, believe what you want about the timing of the kings existence, but please leave these clowns out of the discussion and we'll compare what you believe (wherever you got it from) to the scriptures and we'll have our own little discussion. If I was that angel I'd strike each one of them commentators dead, lol! "Using a literary convention", "assuming an earlier date than is the fact", "to give his words the force of a prophecy". Even an angel would be insulted by those accusations.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I am going with the Bible ...

Do you know what Present-Tense means? -- It means it happened as it was being written.
Now do you know what FUTURE-Present-Tense means? -- It means seeing a FUTURE EVENT and taking about it as you see it occurring IN THE FUTURE.

Your interpretation DEFIES THE HISTORICAL RECORD because John DID NOT write his words during the asserted VESPASIAN's REIGN, -- which the commentators present because the MATH works out. Instead the historical record reflects that the words were written during DOMITIAN's reign where the MATH DOES NOT WORK OUT. -- So there is NO SOLUTION where this Ancient Prophecy matches Ancient History.

Now if this Ancient Prophecy is written in, FUTURE-Present-Tense, then Modern History agrees with that Ancient Prophecy sequence.


Some people demand a rational explanation; but others are content with ANY explanation -- true or not. -- And I prefer the former!
Bobby Jo

 

[Ferris Bueller]

FIVE Kingdoms:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

... and ...

Dan. 2: 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom ...​

... now it's quite obvious that we CURRENTLY have a "Divided Kingdom" consisting of THREE SUPERPOWERS and a UNITED NATIONS.


Or maybe History DOESN'T have to match Scripture, and that Alice can BELIEVE WHAT COMES INTO HER IMAGINATION.
Bobby Jo

Or maybe your 'five' doesn't match the four that Daniel talks about. He does not say anything about the fourth kingdom being a fourth and a fifth kingdom. He calls it a fourth kingdom, period. A conglomeration of peoples that don't mix very well, but still a single fourth kingdom.

Daniel 2:41-43
41And just as you saw that the feet and toes were made partly of fired clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom, yet some of the strength of iron will be in it—just as you saw the iron mixed with clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoplese will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay.

It's only divided insofar as the peoples don't mix together very well. It's not divided up into a fourth and fifth kingdom. It doesn't say that.

Daniel 7:17
17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

 

[Bobby Jo]

Or maybe your 'five' ...

... you mean GOD's "five"? I didn't write that Verse or that Chapter, or that Book, -- GOD DID. And he called the Empire of Clay a "DIVIDED KINGDOM". Now if you want to argue that GOD didn't know what HE was writing, then also please advise our Generation who SEES a FIFTH KINGDOM DIVIDED between Three Superpowers and a United Nations.

Daniel 2:41-43
41And just as you saw that the feet and toes were made partly of fired clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom, yet some of the strength of iron will be in it—just as you saw the iron mixed with clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay.

It's only divided insofar as the peoples don't mix together very well. It's not divided up into a fourth and fifth kingdom. It doesn't say that.

Ummmmmm, yes it does:

Dan. 2:45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE!​

And where we know that FIVE ≠ FOUR we can examine whether the Chapter 7 depictions match the THREE SUPERPOWERS and the UNITED NATIONS, -- which it DOES:

Dan. 7:17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.​

And just to say again, Walvoord's hand picked Scholars had DOZENS of SCRIPTURE observations which he ignored, and you can too. You BOTH are given a Free Will to do wrong! But as for me, I'll stick with what Scripture LITERALLY PROVIDES as supplemented by the Scholars research, INCLUDING NEWTON who Walvoord should have cited but never did.
Bobby Jo

PS If you want to do a "though experiment", consider 7:11 --

Dan. 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

So here's an analogy: There once was a little bird (Babylon) who was eaten by a cat (Medo/Persia), who in turn was eaten by a dog (Greece), who was in turn eaten by a crocodile (Rome) -- When the Fish & Game killed the crocodile (Rome), did the DOG, CAT, & BIRD (Greece, Medo/Persia, Babylon) come back to life to live for another "season and a time"?

The only way this progression can occur is if they COEXIST in a DIVIDED KINGDOM exactly as we have in the world today.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Do you know what Present-Tense means? -- It means it happened as it was being written.
Now do you know what FUTURE-Present-Tense means? -- It means seeing a FUTURE EVENT and taking about it as you see it occurring IN THE FUTURE.

Your interpretation DEFIES THE HISTORICAL RECORD because John DID NOT write his words during the asserted VESPASIAN's REIGN, -- which the commentators present because the MATH works out. Instead the historical record reflects that the words were written during DOMITIAN's reign where the MATH DOES NOT WORK OUT. -- So there is NO SOLUTION where this Ancient Prophecy matches Ancient History.

Now if this Ancient Prophecy is written in, FUTURE-Present-Tense, then Modern History agrees with that Ancient Prophecy sequence.


Some people demand a rational explanation; but others are content with ANY explanation -- true or not. -- And I prefer the former!
Bobby Jo

We were talking about Revelation 12:1-5. It's not a prophecy. It's a historical account.....

1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

This is John speaking about the seven headed beast in the past—when Jesus was born into the world. And at that past time, when Jesus was born, John said the beast had seven heads, and then it was cast down to the earth. Just as it has seven heads when John is speaking about it in the future in Revelation 13:1- when it rises up out of the sea ("he once was, now is not, and yet will come"-Revelation 17:8?).

1The dragon a stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

But this time the crowns (signifying authority?) have been transferred from the seven heads to the ten horns (the ten horns that Daniel 7:24 says come from the fourth beast kingdom). Which is what I think this passage is referring to......

Revelation 17:12
12“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the (seven headed) beast.

There's still some things to reconcile with this, but this is an accurate narrative straight from Revelation, I believe.