♫ We Ten Kings of Rev-a-la-tion ♫
- Thread starter Ferris Bueller
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The 'United' States is presently divided. Does that mean it's two kingdoms? No. It means we are a divided people under one 'king', not two distinct kingdoms.
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This is a progression of POWER, not a progression of extinction.PS If you want to do a "though experiment", consider 7:11 --
Dan. 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
So here's an analogy: There once was a little bird (Babylon) who was eaten by a cat (Medo/Persia), who in turn was eaten by a dog (Greece), who was in turn eaten by a crocodile (Rome) -- When the Fish & Game killed the crocodile (Rome), did the DOG, CAT, & BIRD (Greece, Medo/Persia, Babylon) come back to life to live for another "season and a time"?
The only way this progression can occur is if they COEXIST in a DIVIDED KINGDOM exactly as we have in the world today.
And yet there is no gold, no silver, and no bronze in the legs and feet and toes of the large statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The legs and feet and toes would have to have those other elements in them for your interpretation to be true. But since this is about a transference and progression of power from one beast to another the previous beasts in power do not appear in the next beast in power. Likewise, the fourth kingdom is not two kingdoms, but a single kingdom next in line to dominate the world—a kingdom made up of peoples that don't mix together well, and although it is as strong as two iron legs trampling on the whole world, it is brittle as a result of that failure of it's people to mix together well.So here's an analogy: There once was a little bird (Babylon) who was eaten by a cat (Medo/Persia), who in turn was eaten by a dog (Greece), who was in turn eaten by a crocodile (Rome) -- When the Fish & Game killed the crocodile (Rome), did the DOG, CAT, & BIRD (Greece, Medo/Persia, Babylon) come back to life to live for another "season and a time"?
The only way this progression can occur is if they COEXIST in a DIVIDED KINGDOM exactly as we have in the world today.
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After we talk about the fourth beast/kingdom and the seven headed beast we can talk about the ten kings that Daniel says comes from the fourth kingdom (or 4th and 5th kingdom as @Bobby Jo says).
Daniel 7:23
23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. 24And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this (fourth) kingdom.
Daniel 7:23
23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. 24And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this (fourth) kingdom.
So you're saying the sixth head of the seven headed beast is the fourth beast/kingdom of Daniel? And that the 7th head is another king of Daniel's fourth beast/kingdom, right?
This much I can grasp. When and where in the time of the 6th and 7th heads of the dragon (Daniel's 4th kingdom/beast) do the ten kings appear? Can we know who the three are that are uprooted by the eighth anit-christ king when he appears?
So the seven headed beast grows an eighth head, which then uproots three of the ten horns that came before it from the seven headed beast. And we affectionately know this eighth head of the beast/11th horn after the ten horns as the anti-christ. This much I understand.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Indeed, Ferris, through the so-called apocalyptic prophecy of the Book of Revelation the Bible discloses an evil trio made up of Satan, the 1st Beast from the Sea, and the 2nd Beast from the Earth who is identified as the false prophet:
1.The 7 Headed Metaphorical Dragon is Satan, also referred to as the Serpent, and called the Devil.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
2. The 7 Headed 1st Metaphorical Beast from the Sea is the accumulated evil works of unredeemed humanity which provide the superstructure for Satan in his efforts to have dominion over mankind. This beast is depicted as an entity that includes the 7 main kingdoms that have exercised control over God's People since they became the nation of Israel in Egypt. As these verses show, the Dragon (Satan) gives this beast his power, his throne, and his authority.
Rev 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3. The 2nd Metaphorical Beast From the Earth with 2 Horns Like a Lamb is later identified as the false prophet: This is the "man of sin", the son of perdition, "that Wicked" of 2 Thess 2 who exercises all the power of the 1st Beast. .
Rev 13:11-12 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. (12) And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
After the 1st Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire, the Dragon is still at large...but not for long
Rev 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Obviously the 7 Headed Dragon is not the 7 Headed 1st Beast from the Sea, but they do all end up in the Lake of Fire eventually, HOORAY.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
We're not silly. It says it right here........
Revelation 12:1-9
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
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I'm surprised you can't see them as one and the same thing. The kingdoms of the earth are just the various manifestations through history of the devil (who upholds them all) that we can see.
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Isn't the anti-christ the little horn that comes up among the ten horns (the 11th horn, and who is also the eighth king)?
Daniel 7:8
8While I was contemplating the (ten) horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance.
Daniel 7:20
20I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others, with eyes and with a mouth that spoke words of arrogance. 21As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them
Daniel 7:24-25
24And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
Revelation 13:5-8
5The (seven headed) beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies (the little horn of Daniel 7:8?) and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast
2 Thessalonians 2:3-8
3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
So far all this seems to be speaking of the anti-christ who exalts himself and speaks proud words and blasphemies, not the false prophet. The false prophet is the beast that rises up and accompanies the anit-christ. He performs the false wonders to deceive people into worshipping the anti-christ.
Revelation 13:11-15
11Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder
This is the false prophet. He will accompany the anti-christ.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I'm urging you to read Revelation with more discernment, Ferris. How can the Dragon be the same as the 1st Beast when the 1st Beast is in the Lake of Fire and the Dragon is sealed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years?
Do not be a stubborn ignoramus who builds on sinking sand instead of the solid rock.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
This is where we must put the two visions of Daniel together in light of the beast in REv. 13
Let me post the two visions here.
Dan. 2:
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan. 7:
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Now this vision started with Nebuchadnezzar and ends with the REturn of Jesus. so this is a continuous vision and thefourth beast therefore must still be ruling in some way shape or form!
we know the first three beasts are Babylon, The Medeo-Persian, and Greece.
Scripture calls the fourth beast different from all the rest.
Well after greece came Rome! Rome conquered and establishes its empire in the same way th e others did, so what made Rome different from the rest? They instituted the form of Govt. known as Imperialism or takig the rule of rome and making the vanquished lands adopt it. Prior to this teh conquerors allowed whatever rule the people had to stand- they just had to pay tribute. The empires had officials in teh conquered lands, but they were not forced to accept the form of govt. Rome changed that!
So Imperialism is in actuality the fourth beast which is different from the rest. It started as the roman EMpire.
Then in the statue vision in 395 AD Rome fell and broke into two separate empires, both of which were Imperialistic. (the legs of the statue)
This 2 part division has stayed to this day. In the east Imperialism stayed in Constantinople and then moved to Russia (Czar is russian for ceasar)
In the west it went to France, then Germany (both called themselves the Holy Roman Empire and Kaiser is german for cesar) then spain, then England and the US. Hope you are still following.
In verse 23 of Daniel 7 it says that the fourth beast will devour the whole earth! Rome did not do that. They did not even conquer as far as Greece did, nor did they conquer the known world (they built Hadrians Wall) or even the civilized world. India was civilized and they did not go too deep[ into India!
Neither has any of the Imperialistic empires or nations that followed conquered the world. So they must be a one world govt. that will arise from the two divison stage which is currently US-Russia.
During the one world govt. stage ten horns or rulers of some sort will arise and rule the world and from this the antichrist arises- militarily puts down three of the ten and the rest give him their allegiance thus making him world emperor!
It is interesting that years ago teh Club of Rom put out a paper calling for a 1 world govt divided into ten spheres of influence with ten"governors ruling over the spheres!
The Club of Rome, the Illuminati, Council of Foreign relations, United NAtions, European round tables, Bilderbergs, Davos group, world council of churches have or are calling fro a global govt.
Hope all this heps.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
So I have a simple question that begs "solid rock". And where @Ferris Bueller wasn't able to arrive at the OBVIOUS Scriptural Inference, -- are YOU?
Bobby Jo
Is the pot calling the kettle black? An old timers saying.
So many people have an understanding in which they believe, but to others that understanding does not stack up at all.
An understanding of scripture means that we have to gather and overlay many verses to be able to see the big picture which means that we cannot treat each prophecy individually as if it is standing alone.
When we all look into the distance of time, we are all seeing a facet of the end times from our own vantage point which means that what we are seeing is biased on our understanding and not necessarily on God's word.
Yes history does help us to confirm what is in our past, but it does not help us to see what is ahead of us if our understanding is based on flawed premises. When we are talking of the five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 we need to understand that who and what these five beasts are and where they originated from.
If all of the "beasts" are judged at the same time, and since they have been stirring up the sea of humanity since they first appeared, then are the beasts of "Human" form or are they from another dimension which we have difficulty to comprehend because as humans few if anybody as a human has experienced the dimension from which they have come from.
Do we have the ability to see so far into our future that we are able to identify the people groups that will manifest themselves, based on our understanding of today, over a 1,000 years into our future.
This exercise is foolishness and those who love to indulge in discussions as to which people groups are this or that part of the "beast/beasts" are as misleading as those who attempt to combine different unconnected prophecies together to bolster position in the pecking order of the "Authority" of fluidity of their knowledge in this area. Be careful in who you believe and the tactics they employ to falsely do others down who disagree with their polished theories.
Shalom
Mosheli
Active Member
No one seems to know for certain, or it is not agreed conventional consensus scholars that anyone knows. But some possibilities might include:
The 10 horns should be easy enough to identify since they are present-future. But the 7/8 heads are harder because they are apparently consecutive in history with 5 fallen at the time of John. As someone who has studied a fair bit of history I can't necessarily yet definitely identify 7 historical kings/kingdoms with 5 fallen at John's time.
10 horns/toes/kings/crowns:
- Atlantis had 10 kings (and there is a modern Atlantis Rising movement).
- "10 countries formed the Counicl of Europe in the 1940s".
- EEC had 10 nations.
- G7/G8 has 10 heads of states/executives (ref Wiki).
- The Egyptian world had 9/10 bows/arcs.
- 9 provinces in Chinese.
- 9/10 worlds/world trees/trees in Eddaic/Norse.
- "10" sons of Japheth.
- "10 sons of Togarmah"?
- 5 members of UNO security council + 5 more proposed members?
- "10 horns = Germanic tribes realms of (West) Roman empire"?
- 10 countries of Mu (torn asunder)?
- 7 Roman emperors & 3 "usurpers"?
- Some count 10 world kingdoms from ancient times until now (including Babel, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece/Macedonia, Rome, Germanic/papacy, China/globalist)?
- Approximately 10 Indo-European branches/civilisations (German, Celt, Slav, Balt, Roman, Greek, Hittie, Armenian, Iranian, Indian, Tocharian)?
(Compare 10 sons of Haman.
70 (7 x 10) nations?)
7/8 heads/kings/crowns:
- G7/G8?
- 7 continents, & Atlantis is the "8th continent". (8 = "new".)
- 7 sons of Japheth.
- 7 root races Theosophy.
- 7 aeons ONA.
- 7 hills of Rome.
- 7 champions of Christendom (Western Europe).
- 7/8 steps/stages of zigguarts or tower of Babel?
- 7 heads of Shalyat (or Lotan/Leviathan)?
- 7 heads of 4 beasts (3rd beast had 4 heads)?
- 7 tribes of Canaanites in promised land?
- Some count 7 world kingdoms/empires from ancient times until now (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece/Macedonia, Rome, Germanic/papacy, China/globalist)?
- 7/8 Roman emperors excluding 3 "usurpers" (Augustus to Titus/Domitian)?
- Approximately 7 main high cultures or civilisations of the world (Germanic? Celtic? Roman, Greek, Hittite? Persian, Egyptian, Indian, Chinese, Peru, Mexico, Mound builders?)
7 remaining horns:
5 fallen heads/kings:
- Daniel 11 "Now will I show you the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and when he has grown strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece. A mighty king shall stand up, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will."
- "Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece-Macedonia"?
4/5 beasts/metals Lion/gold, Bear/silver, Leopard/bronze, Dragon/beast/iron, (iron & clay):
- 4/5 suns in Mexican.
- 4/5 world ages in Greek (gold, silver, bronze, (heroic,) iron).
- 4 yugas in Indian (krita/satya, dvapara, treta, kali).
- 4 rivers/lands of Eden?
- 4 kings Kedorlaomer, Amraphel, Arioch, Tidal?
- Constantine/Aurelius Conan, Vortipore, Cuneglas, Maelgwn.
- Assyria-Babylon, Media-Persia (3 ribs Babylon, Egypt, Lydia), Greece-Macodonia (4 heads Ptolemy/Egypt, Seleucid/Syria, ..., ...), Roman.
3/4 parts of beast (Lion, Bear, Leopard, (Dragon?)):
- UK/Churchill/Brexit, USSR/Stalin/Russia/Putin, & US/Roosevelt/Trump? (or Germany (4 occupation zones)?)
- Shem, Japheth, Ham?
- Babylon/Babel, Persia, Greece/Macedon, (Rome)?
Little horn uproots 3 horns/kings:
- BeNeLux?
- Golden Triangle (UK, Germany, France)?
- Yalta (US, UK, SU)?
- Media-Persia (Babylon, Egypt, Lydia)?
- 3 "usurpers" Galba, Otho, Vitellius?
- 3 Germanic tribes ...?
See also some of my posts in this thread/topic here www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2167 .
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Most nations are too insignificant to be individually included. That's why there's "Regional Representation" for S. America, Africa, and the Near East , with even Canada being quasi-represented by the U.S. But although Austria is a continent, it's still insignificant.
-- Yeah the "Austria" instead of "Australia" was a "dig" ...
Bobby Jo
-- Yeah the "Austria" instead of "Australia" was a "dig" ...
Bobby Jo
Most nations are too insignificant to be individually included. That's why there's "Regional Representation" for S. America, Africa, and the Near East , with even Canada being quasi-represented by the U.S. But although Austria is a continent, it's still insignificant.
-- Yeah the "Austria" instead of "Australia" was a "dig" ...
Bobby Jo
Well then perhaps you should move to Australia to avoid being under the rule of one the ten kings?
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