♫ We Ten Kings of Rev-a-la-tion ♫

[Ferris Bueller]

I'm urging you to read Revelation with more discernment, Ferris. How can the Dragon be the same as the 1st Beast when the 1st Beast is in the Lake of Fire and the Dragon is sealed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years?

Do not be a stubborn ignoramus who builds on sinking sand instead of the solid rock.

The argument was the seven headed, ten horned dragon in Revelation 12:3 and the seven headed, ten horned beast in Revelation 13:1 are the same thing.

Revelation 12:3
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.

Revelation 13:1
1Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea.

The kingdoms of the earth are just the various manifestations through history of the devil (who upholds them all) that we can see.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This is where we must put the two visions of Daniel together in light of the beast in REv. 13

Let me post the two visions here.

Dan. 2:

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan. 7:

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Now this vision started with Nebuchadnezzar and ends with the REturn of Jesus. so this is a continuous vision and thefourth beast therefore must still be ruling in some way shape or form!

we know the first three beasts are Babylon, The Medeo-Persian, and Greece.

Scripture calls the fourth beast different from all the rest.

Well after greece came Rome! Rome conquered and establishes its empire in the same way th e others did, so what made Rome different from the rest? They instituted the form of Govt. known as Imperialism or takig the rule of rome and making the vanquished lands adopt it. Prior to this teh conquerors allowed whatever rule the people had to stand- they just had to pay tribute. The empires had officials in teh conquered lands, but they were not forced to accept the form of govt. Rome changed that!

So Imperialism is in actuality the fourth beast which is different from the rest. It started as the roman EMpire.
Then in the statue vision in 395 AD Rome fell and broke into two separate empires, both of which were Imperialistic. (the legs of the statue)

This 2 part division has stayed to this day. In the east Imperialism stayed in Constantinople and then moved to Russia (Czar is russian for ceasar)

In the west it went to France, then Germany (both called themselves the Holy Roman Empire and Kaiser is german for cesar) then spain, then England and the US. Hope you are still following.

In verse 23 of Daniel 7 it says that the fourth beast will devour the whole earth! Rome did not do that. They did not even conquer as far as Greece did, nor did they conquer the known world (they built Hadrians Wall) or even the civilized world. India was civilized and they did not go too deep[ into India!

Neither has any of the Imperialistic empires or nations that followed conquered the world. So they must be a one world govt. that will arise from the two divison stage which is currently US-Russia.

During the one world govt. stage ten horns or rulers of some sort will arise and rule the world and from this the antichrist arises- militarily puts down three of the ten and the rest give him their allegiance thus making him world emperor!

It is interesting that years ago teh Club of Rom put out a paper calling for a 1 world govt divided into ten spheres of influence with ten"governors ruling over the spheres!

The Club of Rome, the Illuminati, Council of Foreign relations, United NAtions, European round tables, Bilderbergs, Davos group, world council of churches have or are calling fro a global govt.

Hope all this heps.

I'm good with all of this. Where does Ezekiel 38 fit in? I think it's generally understood that Russia will be defeated when they invade Israel, and China will be the nation that leads the charge against Christ himself at the very end of the age.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

- 7 heads of 4 beasts (3rd beast had 4 heads)?

I have considered that, too. Right now it carries the most weight with me.

Daniel 7:6
6Next, as I watched, another beast appeared (the third beast of the four). It was like a leopard, and on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

What are the four kingdoms that Greece got split up into (Daniel 8:21-22)?

 

[Ziggy]

Who are the ten kings of prophecy? Who's the 7th king? Who's the eighth king?

Revelation 17:10-13
10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

Let's unpack it.

@Bobby Jo

The first verse that came to mind was:
Jhn 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. That Kingdom will be the New Jerusalem.

and following comes:
Jhn 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
The Prince of the power of the air, which rules over the children of disobedience.
Satan?

Revelation is an odd book for me. Sometimes I see it through a reverse lens.
Up is down, down is up.
Man and Beast are side by side throughout all the scriptures.
It is highly symbolic and mostly if not all spiritual.

Man the Image of God.. Spiritual
Beast the Earthy Man.. Human/Flesh

Was it Nebuchadnezzar who claimed the kingdom as his own.
And his pride brought him down as to the lowliness of a beast.
Humbled.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jde 1:10
But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Not to sidetrack your thread, but I believe the Beast that is cast into the lake of fire is that earthy/fleshy/natural/carnal part of man.

If all members of the church make up one body of Christ
what if all members outside the church make up the body of the Beast

I guess the first thing we need to know is "what" a kingdom is, before we can find out who's they are.
And who gets to rule in them.
What is a Kingdom?
Gen 10:8
And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Exo 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Kingdom: mamlakah
Domininion, Reign, Sovereignty, Realm

Start with Dominion:
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Is this the first Kingdom?
This Kingdom was given unto man before he fell into sin.

Let's say this is the New Jerusalem, which is created in chapter 20 in the book of Revelation.
It is the first and the last.
Without Sin.
This is the Kindom Jesus says is not from here.
But he is going to make a place for us.
These will have authority over the beast. Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

But who are those that Reign after the fall?
Hmm.

What a journey this could be.
:)
Hugs

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In verse 23 of Daniel 7 it says that the fourth beast will devour the whole earth! Rome did not do that. They did not even conquer as far as Greece did, nor did they conquer the known world (they built Hadrians Wall) or even the civilized world. India was civilized and they did not go too deep[ into India!

Maybe the Roman empire is not the fourth beast of Daniel until it rises again. This thought has bugged me through the years.

At this point in my theology, I think the little horn is a European country, and the false prophet is the United States who defends the agenda of the kingdom of the anti-christ. And I think the ideology of the anti-christ world system is Marxist. And the harlot riding the seven headed beast is man's economic system of buying and selling and coveting the riches of the earth. And Marxism is the beast system that rises out of the earth that God is allowing, along with the ten kings, to put that economic system and love of wealth to death so that they can own and control it all.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Is this the first Kingdom?
This Kingdom was given unto man before he fell into sin.

Just as man ruled over creation in the kingdom of God before the fall, so he will rule and reign in the kingdom of God when it fills the whole earth after all rule and authority of the devil has been destroyed.

There is definitely a spiritual aspect to all of this. Even in the garden the spiritual aspect is that created things don't rule over the man. But in the fall created things do rule over man. His own created body rules him and dictates what he will think and do. Our dominion over our own created bodies will be restored in the kingdom to come. And so we will rule and reign over creation with Christ. As he rules and reigns over his flesh so will we.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm good with all of this. Where does Ezekiel 38 fit in? I think it's generally understood that Russia will be defeated when they invade Israel, and China will be the nation that leads the charge against Christ himself at the very end of the age.

Russia with its allies invades Israel prior to the start of the tribulation period. By at least 3 1/2 years

China does not lead the way. They're not the army of 200,000,000 in Rev. 9

When teh armies of the world gather at Armegeddon to march on the Jews and Jesus- it is the antichrist who isthe head and the armies of the whole world 9better yet what is left) will fight including whoever survives in the PLA

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Maybe the Roman empire is not the fourth beast of Daniel until it rises again. This thought has bugged me through the years.

At this point in my theology, I think the little horn is a European country, and the false prophet is the United States who defends the agenda of the kingdom of the anti-christ. And I think the ideology of the anti-christ world system is Marxist. And the harlot riding the seven headed beast is man's economic system of buying and selling and coveting the riches of the earth. And Marxism is the beast system that rises out of the earth that God is allowing, along with the ten kings, to put that economic system and love of wealth to death so that they can own and control it all.

Many think that way. However the vision shows a continual ruling by the four beasts which coincides exactly with Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles.

The little horn of Daniel 8 is Antiochus IV Epiphenes. History shows that.

The eleventh horn of Daniel 7 is the antichrist!

I would recommend to you the most exhaustive study of end times I have read. I have taught Eschatology at a Bible College level for over twenty years now as well as in Bible Insituute and church bible studies.

Teh Book is "Footsteps of the Messiah". by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. It is what I use as a source text. It can be found at ariel.org.

He uses the literal hermeneutic and shows in depoth the symbols and how th eBible defines them. It is a weighty tome in its teaching but well worth the price and time invested to study it. It is rich with Scripture.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Rev. 13:16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Rev. 8: 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?”​

Perhaps SOME will escape! :)


Or perhaps not ...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Who are the ten kings of prophecy? Who's the 7th king? Who's the eighth king?

Revelation 17:10-13
10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

Let's unpack it.

@Bobby Jo

I haven't really looked into this thread, but it's something I've been dealing with in other places. It's traditionally believed, from the Early Church until today that this represents the Antichristian Kingdom. I know we read in the Revelation where the Antichrist is worshiped world-wide. But somehow many seem to fail to see that Antichrist's Kingdom is limited, even if he does have admirers all across the world. His power based is limited.

I believe this power base arises in 10 states in Europe, since we are told in Daniel that they arise out of the 4th Kingdom, traditionally understood to be the Roman Empire. Following the history of the Empire and its breakup we are left with the states of Europe, East and West. So, 5 states may arise from Western Europe, and 5 states may arise from Eastern Europe. Or, it may not matter how many come from either side of Europe as long as there are 10.

It seems that 3 of the presidents of those states are taken out by the rise of Antichrist to power--perhaps because they oppose him. I could see this happening, for example, to the UK, because I can't see them ever accepting a European dictator. The Antichrist would have to take out the UK prime minister and perhaps even the royalty. European tradition reaches even as far as America, so that US could be another country that loses its president, because the US would never accept a European dictator either. The US President would have to be taken out.

This is why, I believe, we read in Revelation that there are 10 horns and 7 heads. 1st there are crowns on the horns, and then on the heads, indicating that 3 leaders are removed (not necessarily in the order we are given this in the differing visions).

And so, in Rev 17 we read that there will be this Great Harlot, representing the city of Rome, who rides on the Beast--the 4th Beast of the Roman Empire reunited in the last days. The Apostle John speaks in riddles because he knows the Christians will understand he's speaking of Rome. But he cannot say this plainly since he is under Roman guard, and would be executed for saying this plainly.

So John tells the riddle to indicate the 7 European leaders will be Roman because 1) they are 7 hills, representing Rome, and because they are 7 historical kingdoms, with the present king being the 6th, which also is Rome. The 7th king will be the historical development of the Antichristian Kingdom, and Antichrist will be its 8th king, taking control over this union of 10 European states.

By the way, 666 represents, numerically, the 1st King of Rome, which is something apparently known in the Early Church. His name numbered 666, and indicated, cryptically, that Antichrist would be a king over a last days form of the Roman Empire. I have no clue, however, what the "Image of the Beast" will be? I'd really like to have an idea in my head, but I don't!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The little horn of Daniel 8 is Antiochus IV Epiphenes. History shows that.

The eleventh horn of Daniel 7 is the antichrist!

Who were the 10 kings, and which three were uprooted by the 11th?

7After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared, and it was terrifying—dreadful and extremely strong—with large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed; then it trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the beasts before it, and it had ten horns. 8While I was contemplating the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

See also some of my posts in this thread/topic here www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2167 .

The link does not go to a forum thread.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Who were the 10 kings, and which three were uprooted by the 11th?

7After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared, and it was terrifying—dreadful and extremely strong—with large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed; then it trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the beasts before it, and it had ten horns. 8While I was contemplating the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance.

Dan. 7:

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The ten kings are still to come! After they arise- the 11th horn arises who is different and subdue three.

Then we see in REv. that teh rmaining 7 give their allegiance to the 11th horn (Antichrist)

Taking my wife away for much needed R&R (she is a hospital front liner) so see you friday!

 

[Mosheli]

The link does not go to a forum thread.

I've just checked, the forum is down or viewing is blocked, I've had this happen half a dozen times in last couple of years since changes. Sorry. Hopefully it will be right again in hours/days. Otherwise I'll have to repost on the topic here or somewhere else if time. I've been doing a little bit on compiling new notes on this but they are not as full as what was in that history forum thread yet.

edit post there is a cached copy of page 2 of the thread here Apocalypse - History Forum ~ All Empires - Page 2
(or search "apocalypse allempires 666")

 

[Davy]

Who are the ten kings of prophecy? Who's the 7th king? Who's the eighth king?

Revelation 17:10-13
10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

Let's unpack it.

One really must understand first about the horns and beast king prophecy in Daniel 7 in relation to the feet of ten toes in Daniel 2. And also the ten horns and "another beast" in Rev.13. And even about the angel of Rev.9 that ascends out of the bottomless pit that is a king.

Rev.17:8 goes with verses 10-13.

The beast of Rev.17:8 is about Satan. Only he and his angels are already assigned to perish in the future lake of fire, so far. No one else has been judged to perish yet. That verse is pointing back to Satan's original rebellion against God, when he setup a previous beast kingdom in the old world earth age before Adam and Eve. That is the system the Rev.12:3-4 verses are pointing to, the time when he drew a third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him. The deceived on earth when they see him arrive here in our near future, will wonder at who he is, as he won't be appearing with literal horns, a pitchfork, and red flannel underwear. He is the beast (king) that was, and is not, and yet is (when he arrives on earth after the Rev.12:7-9 event.)

Of the 'seven kings', five were past, the 6th was in John's day which was Roman emperor Domitian. So those represent the old beast kingdoms of Bible history. The 7th beast king was not yet, and still has not yet appeared (that one above). He will be the final Antichrist, and it will be the devil himself here on earth, in our dimension, appearing as a supernatural being working miracles. The 8th king is Satan's role after... Christ's future thousand years reign of Rev.20 when he is loosed one final time to go tempt the nations.

The ten horns are ten kings that don't come to power until that final beast king shows up (i.e., tribulation timing). They will give their power to him, and they will rule for "one hour" with the beast king (pointing to the tribulation at the end of this world).