1 john 1

[Xian Pugilist]

NASB [sup]5 [/sup]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.[sup]6 [/sup]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; [sup]7 [/sup]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The bold is the crux of my query.

IF you walk in the light AS HE HIMSELF IS IN THE LIGHT, how do you sin? If you sin, and you ARE walking in the light as HE does, then HE must sin, or you can't claim it is as He does.

It seems much more direct, with less versal dancing to say that if I still sin, I DO NOT walk in the light as HE does, YET.

This would be consistent with this verse....

Eph 4[sup]11 [/sup]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, [sup]12 [/sup]for the equipping of the [sup][d][/sup]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; [sup]13 [/sup]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [sup][e][/sup]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [sup][f][/sup]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Here you see a living believer was expected to become as spiritually mature as Christ was. To the fullness of the stature of Christ... that doesn't leave much room for less mature.

If you were as mature as Christ, spiritually it would fit well with what John wrote above. At least in simple logic if you don't go changing words and such.

And THAT seems in line with Jesus when He said....John 17:

[sup]22 [/sup]The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; [sup]23 [/sup]I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [sup][g][/sup]in unity, so that the world may [sup][h][/sup]know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. [sup]24 [/sup]Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


It seems Jesus is asking that we may be as mature as HE was with the same relationship witH God as he had.

So, I've offered corroborating verses to back up the way I read the first one. My focus on the first one, the 1 john verse.

Walking in the light as HE DOES, seems to mean you won't be sinning any longer.

I am sure I will be told I am wrong. But hopefully those comments and opinions will actually address the verses here and not just conclude different than they read.

 

[Episkopos]

NASB [font=Charis SIL'][sup]5 [/sup]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]6 [/sup]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]7 [/sup]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.[/font]

[font=Charis SIL']The bold is the crux of my query.[/font]

[font=Charis SIL']IF you walk in the light AS HE HIMSELF IS IN THE LIGHT, how do you sin? If you sin, and you ARE walking in the light as HE does, then HE must sin, or you can't claim it is as He does. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']It seems much more direct, with less versal dancing to say that if I still sin, I DO NOT walk in the light as HE does, YET. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']This would be consistent with this verse....[/font]

[font=Charis SIL']Eph 4[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]11 [/sup]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]12 [/sup]for the equipping of the [sup][d][/sup]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]13 [/sup]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [sup][e][/sup]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [sup][f][/sup]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.[/font]

[font=Charis SIL']Here you see a living believer was expected to become as spiritually mature as Christ was. To the fullness of the stature of Christ... that doesn't leave much room for less mature. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']If you were as mature as Christ, spiritually it would fit well with what John wrote above. At least in simple logic if you don't go changing words and such. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']And THAT seems in line with Jesus when He said....John 17:[/font]

[font=Charis SIL'][sup]22 [/sup]The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]23 [/sup]I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [sup][g][/sup]in unity, so that the world may [sup][h][/sup]know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]24 [/sup]Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.[/font]


[font=Charis SIL']It seems Jesus is asking that we may be as mature as HE was with the same relationship witH God as he had. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']So, I've offered corroborating verses to back up the way I read the first one. My focus on the first one, the 1 john verse. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']Walking in the light as HE DOES, seems to mean you won't be sinning any longer. [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']I am sure I will be told I am wrong. But hopefully those comments and opinions will actually address the verses here and not just conclude different than they read. [/font]

Amen!

 

[Nomad]

Your proof text does not say that if we walk in the light we won't sin. It says very plainly that if we walk in the light the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Big difference. Again we meet with our old friend. The words "walk" and "cleanses" are both present tense verbs, which indicate a continual state. The same concept is expressed in the following:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

.

Your proof text does not say that if we walk in the light we won't sin. It says very plainly that if we walk in the light the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Big difference. Again we meet with our old friend. The words "walk" and "cleanses" are both present tense verbs, which indicate a continual state. The same concept is expressed in the following:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Go read what a proof text is and stop abusing the word. This is a question, not a proclamation. Just because you don't like what someone says about some verses doesn't make it a proof text. But, the words in the sentence have meaning. Changing and evading the words to change the meaning is pretty tacky. I never claimed it said if you walk you won't sin. Go look up query while we are at it. IS THIS ALWAYS HOW YOU WILL BE?

If you think every present tense verb means continual, when someone says I am crapping in Greek using the present tense by your application they will remain that way for eternity. It also says you are in fellowship with Him IF you walk in the light. But there is no darkness in Him. So you can't be in Him if you still have darkness to your walk. But that is just to have fun with your evasion.

The QUESTION since query threw you for a loop is simply, if you walk in the light, AS HE DOES, how could you sin.

You are such a gun slinger looking for the chance to strut your stuff, you just ran all over the place on your tangent.

Tell me wise one. How can you walk in the light AS HE DOES and still sin

Its simple. You don't need to break out vines to answer this one unless you are scrambling to find a way out. I will bury you in the argument you made if you wish, start that thread and lemme know. But your response has nothing to do with the OP here. .. so, if you don't mind, would you read it again slower and address the actual point?

Again, to be clear. I did not make the case that it said anywhere that it says you can't sin. I am asking your cocky butt HOW you can sin if you walk as he does, there is no darkness/sin in Him/ and He doesn't sin. As He does = he does not sin.

 

[biggandyy]

Xian, I am going to warn you unofficially, no ad hominum.

This is NOT a preaching forum, if you want to preach go get yourself a blog. This is a forum where things are discussed, not proclaimed.

Next time you get a real warning point so your other one isn't so lonely.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Big andy......

I have given no ad homminem. An ad hom is where you call someone a name to avoid an argument. I have avoided no arguments, and not referred to ANYone by a name they have no exhibited the behavior of said name. What we have in here is a person that follows to take jabs at me, presents himself as a huge authority, isn't half as bright as he thinks he is who tried to pick at me by building a strawman.

I don't think this is a forum to lie about what people have said publically and refuse to back down, either, yet that seems to be hunky dory as long as it is me it happens to, so, please by all means give out points. Will you kindly review all my conversations, or should I peruse and collect all the offenses in one place for you to read when it comes to point assigning.

I have started off very tolerantly and patiently to try to keep people on the arguments not the personal attacks. With the behavior allowed on here to attack me as has happened////like me or my imagined attitude or not, I will prove every tiny bit of what I say here//// to accuse me of ad hom when I did not do such an offense seems a bit one sided.

I just want to discuss the exegetics. I am in other forums extremely diverse, but lacking fundagelicals and we do not have any of these issues. We don't agree on anything either....

I would love some help on keeping the chat on the points not the personl

 

[Foreigner]

Your proof text does not say that if we walk in the light we won't sin. It says very plainly that if we walk in the light the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Big difference. Again we meet with our old friend. The words "walk" and "cleanses" are both present tense verbs, which indicate a continual state. The same concept is expressed in the following:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

-- Exactly correct.

Pug, just because Nomad doesn't agree with you on how the scripture reads doesn't mean he is "abusing the word."
He was entirely respectful to you and you reply that way. It is therefore somewhat humorous to hear you complain about your treatment here.


Nomad, Pug incorrectly stated in another thread that "if you sin you are not born again."
This although when Jesus taught us how to pray He said, "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."
Christ didn't put an end date on that or say, "until after I die" or "until the Holy Spirit is given to you."

And the Catholic church requires that Catholics go to confession to confess their sins.
That means that the church acknowledges that people who follow Christ can still sin.
According to Pug's words, that means that they are not born again.

Your interpretation of the scripture is correct.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Good god,, does anyone around here stick to the points? He's not even on topic. He has chased me with an agenda to corner me and has gone from interesting to a pest. Rally the troops take care of each other, I get it. But the stunt he pulled in here is about the same strat did. Making a strawman issue to take shots at me, not dealing with what I said.

When it happens EVERY TIME he speaks to me, accident is gone and agenda as well as pattern and motive are established. He seems bright if not a little too book heavy and parroting what he's heard. He misses the freedom of thought to even see what is said if it is not what he expects it to be.

He has a very smug derogatory way to correct me for errors I did not make. I am still about the only person on here that is willing to give ground in a discussion or admit to error. I am not the one causing the problems. I am the reactionary topic.

The comments he made, don't address the point I made from the verse. But to tell me I am wrong and borderline ridicule me for it, when its not what I said, is equivalent to strat saying I claimed I was perfect when I didn't. They are attempts to redefine my character's appearance in public. Whether it is deliberate or habit, I don't know and I don't care. I am simply trying to get it through some thick skulls so it will go away and real conversations will happen.

But, it appears there is a consensus of people hell bent on portraying character attacks against me are justified. That's a reflection on them not me.

 

[Nomad]

Nomad, Pug incorrectly stated in another thread that "if you sin you are not born again."

Thanks Foreigner. I appreciate that you're affirming what I see here. XP and I have have gone a few rounds before over this idea that 1 John teaches the possibility of of a sinless walk. Now he objects that I just don't understand. So be it.

 

[Elle]

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[sup]2 [/sup](For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
[sup]3 [/sup]That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
[sup]4 [/sup]And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.


1John 1-4 self explanatory.

[sup]5 [/sup]This then is the message (profession of a promise) which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light (truth), and in him is no darkness (lies) at all.
[sup]6 [/sup]If we say that we have fellowship (communion) with him, and walk in (follow after) darkness (lies), we lie, and do not (practice) the truth:
[sup]7 [/sup]But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light (truth), we have fellowship (communion) one with another, and the blood (which redeems us from our sins) of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth (purifies) us from all sin.
[sup]8 [/sup]If we say that we have no sin (not transgressed the law), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[sup]9 [/sup]If we confess our sins (transgressions of the law), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse (purify) us from all unrighteousness.
[sup]10 [/sup]If we say that we have not sinned (transgressed the law), we make him a liar, and his word (truth) is not in us.

Summation: If we say we have not transgressed the law, we lie and there is no truth in us and we are not truly communing with God. If we confess we have transgressed the law and ask for forgiveness we are communing with God. Yeshua, who is just and faithful to his profession of promise will cleanse us with his blood. If we do not confess that we transgress the law, then his promise to cleanse us carries no weight. We are in carnal, fleshly, sinful bodies. We strive to not practice sin, which is not the same as accidentally sinning. However when we know we have broken a law, we ask for forgiveness according to the promise Yeshua made to cleanse us. We walk in the light (truth) when we admit we sinned. Like Yeshua walks in truth, so do we when we acknowledge our sins. Time for me to wash your feet, take this in love. You need to relax and quit letting others get under your skin. Fact of the matter is, Nomad is right in his understanding and I will defend the truth when I see it.

 

[Nomad]

Very nice summation Elle.

 

[Elle]

Thank you kindly Nomad!

 

[Nomad]

If you think every present tense verb means continual, when someone says I am crapping in Greek using the present tense by your application they will remain that way for eternity.

Ah yes... crude and incorrect. Allow me to make a substitution. "I am studying" indicates progressive or continuous action at the time of speaking or writing. It says nothing about the beginning or end of the action. "I study" indicates what I do repeatedly, with interruption, on a regular or not so regular basis. Ask, seek, knock of Matthew 7:7 falls into this category. One last note. The time and aspect of the present tense is from the standpoint of the speaker / writer, not necessarily the reader. The context of a particular passage must be examined to determine how far in time the continuous or repeated action extends.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

NASB [font=Charis SIL'][sup]5 [/sup]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]6 [/sup]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;[/font][font=Charis SIL'][sup]7 [/sup]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.[/font]

You have read it wrong.

It says that if we walk in the light we have fellowship with one another. .... It does not say we do not sin.

Besides verse 10 says:.... [sup]10 [/sup]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[Episkopos]

You have read it wrong.

It says that if we walk in the light we have fellowship with one another. .... It does not say we do not sin.

Besides verse 10 says:.... [sup]10 [/sup]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

John wrote his epistle to refute the growing error of gnosticism. People were tempted, through this heresy, to think that they were not responsible for sins...it wasn't them sinning...it was just the body they had been given. So the argument effectively put the blame and responsibility for sins back onto God. So these claimed to have never sinned. That is what John is addressing. But as he says...he is saying this so that his hearers would not sin...for real!!!!


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.


The gospel is not a scheme that turns a blind eye to sin...it is the proclamation of a living way in Christ that destroys sin in the flesh. It is a real victory over sin...not a mock legalistic triumph. There is no license to sin in the gospel. The gospel declares the power to overcome sin and be holy as God is holy...without the slightest impurity.

I know it is a great sport to twist the meaning of the gospel to condone a life lived in the bondage of the Adamic life..or else in the conquered slavery to sin.

What is lacking (besides understanding of the kingdom) is leadership and the will to conquer in Jesus' name.

 

[Nomad]

John wrote his epistle to refute the growing error of gnosticism. People were tempted, through this heresy, to think that they were not responsible for sins...it wasn't them sinning...it was just the body they had been given. So the argument effectively put the blame and responsibility for sins back onto God. So these claimed to have never sinned. That is what John is addressing. But as he says...he is saying this so that his hearers would not sin...for real!!!!


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.


The gospel is not a scheme that turns a blind eye to sin...it is the proclamation of a living way in Christ that destroys sin in the flesh. It is a real victory over sin...not a mock legalistic triumph. There is no license to sin in the gospel. The gospel declares the power to overcome sin and be holy as God is holy...without the slightest impurity.

I know it is a great sport to twist the meaning of the gospel to condone a life lived in the bondage of the Adamic life..or else in the conquered slavery to sin.

What is lacking (besides understanding of the kingdom) is leadership and the will to conquer in Jesus' name.

I can agree with much of what you said. Yes, John was addressing gnostic heresy. No, the Gospel does not give us a license to sin. However, do you contend that John is teaching the possibility of a sinless life?

 

[Episkopos]

I can agree with much of what you said. Yes, John was addressing gnostic heresy. No, the Gospel does not give us a license to sin. However, do you contend that John is teaching the possibility of a sinless life?

John is stressing the sinless life...but not just a life where one claims to be sinless but actually is. The power of Christ activates a holy walk in us as we abide in Him. It is impossible to sin in His presence. One must decide to look away from Christ and follow one's own plans in order to become subject to the influence of sin. John taught that a born again person does not sin and he cannot since the life of God is in Him.

Jesus Christ was not sinful. And neither are they who abide in His very bosom.

The early believers walked in an amazing power that few in our day even have trouble accepting let alone actually walk this way. John says that we ought to walk even as Jesus walked on the earth. As He is so are we in this world...IF we are truly in Him.

Why have we strayed so far from the power of Christ? The biggest problem lies with the false teachers that say that we are automatically abiding in Him if you go to church or have claimed His sacrifice for yourself. The argument puts the world upside down where one assumes that one has the fulness of Christ just by nodding one's head. No wonder there is so little respect for spiritual men and true authority. It is every man for himself. Jesus is whoever you want Him to be. But it was not always this way.

 

[Nomad]

John is stressing the sinless life...but not just a life where one claims to be sinless but actually is. The power of Christ activates a holy walk in us as we abide in Him. It is impossible to sin in His presence. One must decide to look away from Christ and follow one's own plans in order to become subject to the influence of sin. John taught that a born again person does not sin and he cannot since the life of God is in Him.

Jesus Christ was not sinful. And neither are they who abide in His very bosom.

The early believers walked in an amazing power that few in our day even have trouble accepting let alone actually walk this way. John says that we ought to walk even as Jesus walked on the earth. As He is so are we in this world...IF we are truly in Him.

Why have we strayed so far from the power of Christ? The biggest problem lies with the false teachers that say that we are automatically abiding in Him if you go to church or have claimed His sacrifice for yourself. The argument puts the world upside down where one assumes that one has the fulness of Christ just by nodding one's head. No wonder there is so little respect for spiritual men and true authority. It is every man for himself. Jesus is whoever you want Him to be. But it was not always this way.

So are you living a sinless life?

 

[Episkopos]

So are you living a sinless life?

I have sinned greatly in the past. A man cannot justify himself and declare himself sinless in the present time. Only God can judge that. Can a man boast of his own humility?? Our focus is not on whether we sin or not but on Christ. If sin is still a problem then he has not yet traveled far enough into Christ where sin is no more. I know by looking back that I have walked for long periods without sin. But at the time my focus was not on whether I was sinning or not. My focus was on Christ. If a man truly follows Christ he could walk on water and not know it. So it is with sin.

We all have sinned in the past. There is no one who has always done right. But does this necessitate a continued walk in sin? We can get caught up with previous failure or believe the gospel and surrender ourselves to be lived through Christ. When we do this we cannot sin.

So it depends on how close we are to the cross of Christ. The cross kills the flesh and it's lusts.

 

[Rex]

The perfect man question?

James 3

New King James Version (NKJV)
The Untamable Tongue

3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. [sup]2 [/sup]For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. [sup]3 [/sup]Indeed,[sup][a][/sup] we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. [sup]4 [/sup]Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. [sup]5 [/sup]Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.
See how great a forest a little fire kindles! [sup]6 [/sup]And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. [sup]7 [/sup]For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. [sup]8 [/sup]But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. [sup]9 [/sup]With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. [sup]10 [/sup]Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. [sup]11 [/sup]Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? [sup]12 [/sup]Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.[sup][b][/sup]

Are you greater than Isaih?
Isaiah 6:5

And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”