12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[StanJ]

The souls of the martyrs literally underneath the alter? This is part of why this doctrine continues to exist. The book of Revelation is filled figurative language. If these souls are disembodied consciousnesses how then does they wear robes?

It's figurative language Stan. What was under the altar in the OT? It was blood, when the animals were sacrificed the unused blood was poured out at the base of the altar. This happened day after day, year after year. After many years that ground would be saturated with blood. What was in the blood? The soul was in the blood.

10 `And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11 `For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.' (Lev 17:10-11 NKJ)

The soul of the flesh is in the blood. So, in the OT the souls of the sacrifices were under the altar. The souls of the ones sacrificed to God were under the altar. Can you see the parallel? The souls of the ones who sacrificed themselves for God's service were under the altar.

Notice that the souls under the altar are crying out. What is under the altar? The blood. What is in the blood the soul. There is another parallel.

10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground. (Gen 4:10 NKJ)

We can see the soul in the blood and the blood under the altar and we can see Abel's blood crying out and the souls under the altar crying out. I think we can be pretty certain that Rev 4 is using figurative language.

In addition, I don't believe you'll find any place in Scripture where the word soul is used of a disembodied consciousness.


Also, Rev. 14 9-11 is speaking of people who are alive, not dead. The passage speaks of those who receive the mark of the beast. That is done by the living not the dead. Also, if you look at the next verse you'll see that the saints are there. Would suggest that the saints are in this place of ETC?


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those1 who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14:9-12 NKJ)

The Greek word translated "here" means, in this place.

So you think just because Revelation contains all forms of grammar that you can decide what is figurative or literal and whether figurative conveys a truth or a lie?
Funny how you can assign figurative to Rev 6 but reality to Rev 14? You easily drift from destruction of souls by eternal fire in one scripture to here where it actually depicts the hell/sulphur fire and say these are bodies that are going to be burned forever, despite what v11 states? So bodies can endure eternal real torture but souls cannot?

Sounds like you and brakelite eat from the same doctrinal trough? Revelation is NOT the OT. It conveys end time events at the end of this age, after Jesus returns, hence it being called the final revelation of Jesus Christ.

As in most fallacious dogmas, I note with interest that yours in based on the erroneous translation and understanding of the KJV.
Rev 14:12 reads; This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
In fact, the Greek word ὧδε (hōde) connotes a few different things depending on the context of where it is used. It is something you should understand before trying to teach us what the Greek says when you have a hard time understanding the English translation.

ὧδε (hōde)
Strong: G5602
GK: G6045
here, in this place, Mt. 12:6, 41; ὡδε ἠ ὡδε, here or there, Mt. 24:23; τὰ ὡδε, the state of things here, Col. 4:9; met. herein, in this thing, Rev. 13:10, 18; to this place, Mt. 8:29; 14:18

Equivocating about what the soul is based on your eisegetical practises is not surprising. At one time you call it a spiritual entity when it obviously is a human being and at other times you call it blood when the Bible calls it a soul.
What we ARE, is not only depicted by Luke in Heb 4:12 as I have shown before, but also by Pail in 1 Thess 5:23;

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly, you cannot understand what you refuse to accept in this regard. That is something you will have to explain to God, not me.

 

[JimParker]

Any translator with half a mind knows that the Bible was written in Hebrew Greek.
You are the only one who is having a problem accepting this.
Notice I said written. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek.
Spirit is an English word.

<< the Bible was written in Hebrew Greek.You are the only one who is having a problem accepting this.>>

I am well aware that the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. I'm not having any problem with that. I don't know where you got that idea.

<< Notice I said written. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. Spirit is an English word.>>

No kidding.

Since most English speaking people are not fluent in the ancient Greek and Hebrew of the Bible (which is not spoken anywhere in the world) they read the Bible in the language in which they have some fluency. That would be English for English-speaking people.

What is you point??

Please, say something coherent.

 

[StanJ]

That's a cop out Stan, why not just admit your doctrine doesn't stand in the light of Scripture? You keep talking about people being in denial, I'd suggest looking in the mirror. There is a huge difference between saying I have a spirit and saying I am a spirit. Just like there is a huge difference between saying I have a truck and I am a truck.
kinda harsh isn't it?
The real question is why did the translators translate a word that means wind or breath as spirit instead of wind or breath?

LOL....well I'm sure you would like that a lot, but THAT would be a cop out.
You broached the issue and I gave you scripture but as usual you move the goal posts when reality closes in.

No, the real issue is are you more qualified than the scholars who did translate the modern English versions the way they did?
From your responses here, we already know the answer is a resounding NO!

I am interested though to know what denomination you belong to? Are you JW?

Excellent post Butch, thanks. I was reading the passage just yesterday and was wondering how defenders of eternal torment explain how this passage says the presence of God and of angels and of men is with those "in hell" when at the same time said defenders of ET would claim "death" is separation from God? If these ones who are being tormented in the presence of the Lamb are dead, then death cannot be separation from God, yet we know it is. Therefore those who are being tormented must be still alive!!!
ET, and the idea that spawned it, the natural immortality of the soul, is a doctrine fraught with inconsistencies, impossibilities, and nonsensical conclusions.

Again your words just show what you don't understand from the actual texts but only relate to the KJV.
If it IS so fraught as you claim, then why can't you and your buddy defend it in a coherent fashion, instead of avoiding and deflecting on direct responses?
That you constantly interchange "hell" with the "lake of fire" just shows you really don't understand the overall nature of Revelation and what Jesus has said WILL happen.

 

[ATP]

Since most English speaking people are not fluent in the ancient Greek and Hebrew of the Bible (which is not spoken anywhere in the world) they read the Bible in the language in which they have some fluency. That would be English for English-speaking people.

What is you point??

Please, say something coherent.

"Spirit" means breath and wind because God breathed the breath of life into us. The reason the prophets translated spirit as breath and wind was because they were looking at it through God's perspective and what God did for us. He created us, and he gave us a spirit. Scripture is God-breathed, 100% all 66 books. Every word is written through the Holy Spirit working through man. Man is not a spirit, rather man HAS a spirit. He has "breath" from God. The breath of life.

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[JimParker]

"Spirit" means breath and wind because God breathed the breath of life into us. The reason the prophets translated spirit as breath and wind was because they were looking at it through God's perspective and what God did for us. He created us, and he gave us a spirit. Scripture is God-breathed, 100% all 66 books. Every word is written through the Holy Spirit working through man. Man is not a spirit, rather man HAS a spirit. He has "breath" from God. The breath of life.

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

<< "Spirit" means breath and wind because God breathed the breath of life into us.>>

Gen 41:8 So in the morning his spirit WIND was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men; and Pharaoh told them his dream, but there was none who could interpret it to Pharaoh.

Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD imputes no iniquity, and in whose spirit WIND there is no deceit.

Psa 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in spirit WIND

Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit WIND

Psa 77:6 I commune with my heart in the night; I meditate and search my spirit WIND

Psa 106:33 for they made his spirit WIND bitter, and he spoke words that were rash.

Pro 15:4 A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit WIND

Pro 15:13 A glad heart makes a cheerful countenance, but by sorrow of heart the spirit WIND is broken.

Pro 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit WIND before a fall.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit WIND of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit WIND of wisdom and understanding, the spirit WIND of counsel and might, the spirit WIND of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

DO YOU REALLY THINK ANY OF THAT MAKES SENSE???

Do you have any idea how silly you make yourself look?

You contend that every Bible translator is WRONG but you and E.G. White and Charlie Russel (None of whom knew anything about Biblical languages) are right.

I must wonder if you are quite sane!

 

[Phoneman777]

"Spirit" means breath and wind because God breathed the breath of life into us. The reason the prophets translated spirit as breath and wind was because they were looking at it through God's perspective and what God did for us. He created us, and he gave us a spirit. Scripture is God-breathed, 100% all 66 books. Every word is written through the Holy Spirit working through man. Man is not a spirit, rather man HAS a spirit. He has "breath" from God. The breath of life.

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Yes, I fully agree. Whatever one may think the "spirit" is which returns to God who gave it at death, one thing is for certain: No part of an individual is contained in that "spirit" on its return trip, for individuals begin their existence down here and therefore cannot "return" to heaven any more than any of us can "return" to Pluto. Individuals remain down here as "dead souls" awaiting one or the other resurrection.

 

[ATP]

<< "Spirit" means breath and wind because God breathed the breath of life into us.>>

Gen 41:8 So in the morning his spirit WIND was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men; and Pharaoh told them his dream, but there was none who could interpret it to Pharaoh.

Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD imputes no iniquity, and in whose spirit WIND there is no deceit.

Psa 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in spirit WIND

Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit WIND

Psa 77:6 I commune with my heart in the night; I meditate and search my spirit WIND

Psa 106:33 for they made his spirit WIND bitter, and he spoke words that were rash.

Pro 15:4 A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit WIND

Pro 15:13 A glad heart makes a cheerful countenance, but by sorrow of heart the spirit WIND is broken.

Pro 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit WIND before a fall.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit WIND of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit WIND of wisdom and understanding, the spirit WIND of counsel and might, the spirit WIND of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

DO YOU REALLY THINK ANY OF THAT MAKES SENSE???

It doesn't make sense to you because you're not looking at it through God's perspective and the origin of life. In order for spirit translated wind and breath to make sense, you would have to agree that God breathed life into us. Do you believe God did that for us? Do you believe what Gen 2:7 is saying? Do you believe scripture is 100% God-breathed? Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Yes, I fully agree. Whatever one may think the "spirit" is which returns to God who gave it at death, one thing is for certain: No part of an individual is contained in that "spirit" on its return trip, for individuals begin their existence down here and therefore cannot "return" to heaven any more than any of us can "return" to Pluto. Individuals remain down here as "dead souls" awaiting one or the other resurrection.

Agreed.

 

[JimParker]

It doesn't make sense to you because you're not looking at it through God's perspective and the origin of life. In order for spirit translated wind and breath to make sense, you would have to agree that God breathed life into us. Do you believe God did that for us? Do you believe what Gen 2:7 is saying? Do you believe scripture is 100% God-breathed? Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


Agreed.

No it doesn't make sense because it's nonsense.

Please step away from the Bible. You are NOT qualified to operate it.

But thank you for sharing your "thoughts."

 

[ATP]

No it doesn't make sense because it's nonsense.

Please step away from the Bible. You are NOT qualified to operate it.

But thank you for sharing your "thoughts."

Well you avoided my questions.

Do you believe God breathed life into us?
Do you believe what Gen 2:7 is saying?
Do you believe scripture is 100% God-breathed?

- ATP

 

[JimParker]

Well you avoided my questions.

Do you believe God breathed life into us?
Do you believe what Gen 2:7 is saying?
Do you believe scripture is 100% God-breathed?

- ATP

I got what you have to say.

When you can explain why your "translation" is better than every REAL Bible translator, maybe I'll pay atttention.

Until then, I'm not interested in that 7th Day Jehovah's Witness bunk.

You have a nice day.

 

[ATP]

When you can explain why your "translation" is better than every REAL Bible translator, maybe I'll pay atttention.

Well that's the thing. I didn't write the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. It's not my translation, rather it's God's translation spoken through the prophets.

1. Do you believe God breathed life into us?
2. Do you believe what Gen 2:7 is saying?
3. Do you believe scripture is 100% God-breathed?
4. What are your thoughts on Rom 10:9-10 and John 3:1-10?
5. Who is Jesus Christ to you?

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

John 3:1-10 NIV Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

You have a nice day too. - ATP

 

[JimParker]

Well that's the thing. I didn't write the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. It's not my translation, rather it's God's translation spoken through the prophets.

1. Do you believe God breathed life into us?
2. Do you believe what Gen 2:7 is saying?
3. Do you believe scripture is 100% God-breathed?
4. What are your thoughts on Rom 10:9-10 and John 3:1-10?
5. Who is Jesus Christ to you?

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

John 3:1-10 NIV Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

You have a nice day too. - ATP

You didn't explain anything.

No surprise.

 

[ATP]

You didn't explain anything.

No surprise.

Do you know what it means to be born again?

 

[brakelite]

@ Jim Parker. I repeat; unless there is a "Thus sayeth the Lord" attached to or in the vicinity of any doctrine, I will refuse to accept it, regardless of the exalted learning institutions cited as evidence of expertise. This particularly includes ET and the natural immortality of the soul as taught by most every theological college within Christendom despite both doctrines being as Satanic as one can get. Despite the complete lack of hard evidence. Despite the fact that there is no "thus sayeth the Lord" within cooey of either teaching...as having been proved on forums such as this for years...every so-called text offered in favor of ET has been roundly refuted by posters showing that there are alternative understandings which make far more sense when compared to the rest of the Bible...and which bring glory rather than shame to the character of God. Of course, such explanations are discarded out of hand because of the intransigence and stubbornness of ET advocates who, like yourself and Stan have been resorting to in your latest posts, often become sarcastic, patronizing, insulting, demeaning, and 'superior', rather than simply discussing the issues. Hard questions are avoided under the pretext of 'why should I bother with such a lesser mortal'.

No-one needs any-body else to determine what is truth. The scriptures explain themselves. Comparing scripture with scripture one may find truth. Despite the exalted nature of Paul's education, the Bereans would not accept anything he had to say until they confirmed the scriptures were in agreement. I am yet to be convinced that ET is scriptural. The same obviously goes with ATP, Butch, Phoneman etc. Why are we not convinced? Because you have failed to prove from scripture any unequivocal teaching that supports it.

Allow me to offer again (I say again because it has been stated many times previous but without an answer) just one challenge against the immortality of man.
God is Spirit. God only is immortal. Immortality is a gift for the redeemed bestowed upon him at the second coming. Yet it is taught that men, in spirit, do not die. That the spirit of man is immortal, despite the word clearly telling us that God only is an immortal Spirit. Please provide a clear unambiguous scripture which teaches that man, in spirit, is immortal. A "thus sayeth the Lord " would help.
Now, just one challenge against ET. (There are many I could cite, but one should be sufficient to prove ET untenable.) I would like just one scripture that tells us that Jesus is now suffering eternal torment in propitiation for our sins. Just one clear, unambiguous scripture that shows that the wages of sin is eternal torment, and that Jesus paid that price for our redemption. Should be easy for an educated Bible and language scholar such as yourself.

 

[JimParker]

@ Jim Parker. I repeat; unless there is a "Thus sayeth the Lord" attached to or in the vicinity of any doctrine, I will refuse to accept it, regardless of the exalted learning institutions cited as evidence of expertise. This particularly includes ET and the natural immortality of the soul as taught by most every theological college within Christendom despite both doctrines being as Satanic as one can get. Despite the complete lack of hard evidence. Despite the fact that there is no "thus sayeth the Lord" within cooey of either teaching...as having been proved on forums such as this for years...every so-called text offered in favor of ET has been roundly refuted by posters showing that there are alternative understandings which make far more sense when compared to the rest of the Bible...and which bring glory rather than shame to the character of God. Of course, such explanations are discarded out of hand because of the intransigence and stubbornness of ET advocates who, like yourself and Stan have been resorting to in your latest posts, often become sarcastic, patronizing, insulting, demeaning, and 'superior', rather than simply discussing the issues. Hard questions are avoided under the pretext of 'why should I bother with such a lesser mortal'.

No-one needs any-body else to determine what is truth. The scriptures explain themselves. Comparing scripture with scripture one may find truth. Despite the exalted nature of Paul's education, the Bereans would not accept anything he had to say until they confirmed the scriptures were in agreement. I am yet to be convinced that ET is scriptural. The same obviously goes with ATP, Butch, Phoneman etc. Why are we not convinced? Because you have failed to prove from scripture any unequivocal teaching that supports it.

Allow me to offer again (I say again because it has been stated many times previous but without an answer) just one challenge against the immortality of man.
God is Spirit. God only is immortal. Immortality is a gift for the redeemed bestowed upon him at the second coming. Yet it is taught that men, in spirit, do not die. That the spirit of man is immortal, despite the word clearly telling us that God only is an immortal Spirit. Please provide a clear unambiguous scripture which teaches that man, in spirit, is immortal. A "thus sayeth the Lord " would help.
Now, just one challenge against ET. (There are many I could cite, but one should be sufficient to prove ET untenable.) I would like just one scripture that tells us that Jesus is now suffering eternal torment in propitiation for our sins. Just one clear, unambiguous scripture that shows that the wages of sin is eternal torment, and that Jesus paid that price for our redemption. Should be easy for an educated Bible and language scholar such as yourself.

Suit yourself.

I'll hang with the 3-digit IQ crowd.

 

[StanJ]

I repeat; unless there is a "Thus sayeth the Lord" attached to or in the vicinity of any doctrine, I will refuse to accept it, regardless of the exalted learning institutions cited as evidence of expertise.

Well, with this kind of adamancy, how can God get through to you when ALL scripture is His inspired Word?

How about the doctrine of the Trinity, or salvation, or Eternal Life? Where do any of these accepted doctrines ( IF you do accept them ) have "Thus sayeth the Lord" attached or in the vicinity of them?

 

[Phoneman777]

<< Personally I couldn't give a toss whether Russel or White or any such as yourself who spent time in Bible colleges, seminaries, Universities, and had numerous letters after their names attesting to their "scholarly expertise">>

Of course not; you already know everything. I get that kind of arrogance attitude from most every self-proclaimed, Bible-genius peddling their crackpot knowledge "from the Holy Spirit."

It's also common fare among religion frauds who play on the ignorance and pride of gullible people.

Would you trust your life to a surgeon who hadn't gone to medical school and had the letters "M.D." after his name but said he was taught how to do brain surgery by the Holy Ghost?

But you'd trust your eternal life to some ignorant, babbler who claims that "God told him."

Good luck with that.

The cults are full of such ignorant, gullible, people who delight in being told how they have been taught the "really true truth of the secret remnant of God that none of those stupid Ph.D.s know anything about."

You have a nice day there Mr. Bible Genius.

So, are you (or anyone else currently posting here who says the correct translation is breath and wind) an exert in Hebrew and Greek?

If so, can you explain where all those hundreds professional translators with Ph.D.s in Greek and Hebrew are wrong and you are right.

Please, clarify that for me.

<< You related a story (used to falsely claim that I believe God requires something in addition to the blood of Jesus for salvation, but that's another thread) of how Jesus offered to dig a ditch that a ditch-digger was hired to dig and that Jesus dug the entire ditch for him - not part of it, not most of it, but all of it.>>

No, I did not ever relate such a story. I had never heard of any such story until I just read it in your post.

The church ( the people who gave us the scriptures) has never taught that the wicked dead cease to exist. That is an invention of ignorant, crackpots like E. G. White et. al. They have as much credibility as the devil.

My mistake. I am still under the weather and was a bit drowsy.

Why did you not address the issue of Jesus not having paid an eternity of torment for our sins? If you and I owe God an eternity of torment for our sin, how could anything less than an eternally tormented Jesus cover what we owe?

No it doesn't make sense because it's nonsense.

Please step away from the Bible. You are NOT qualified to operate it.

But thank you for sharing your "thoughts."

Jim, while certain denominations teach "ye shall know them by their gifts (like tongues)", Scripture says "ye shall know them by their fruits." The fruit you manifest -sarcasm, unkindness, insults, prideful arrogance - actually disqualifies YOU from handling Scripture, not brother ATP. Earnest, deliberate contention for the faith is carried out by the Sword of the Spirit, not by weapons found in the arsenal of Satan.

 

[brakelite]

Suit yourself.

I'll hang with the 3-digit IQ crowd.

Bear with me a little while I relate a short fictional story.
Paul the Apostle is preaching to the Jews in the synagogue on sabbath as his custom was, and at the end of his treatise the head rabbi, after a short discussion with the elders of the synagogue, tells Paul that the teaching he is sharing, though strange, will from that time on become standard doctrine for the Berean assembly. Because of his exalted educational status as a graduate from Gamaliel's Theological University, they decide to trust Paul that he is telling them the truth. From that moment on the Berean church becomes known as the church of Paul. The scriptures are discarded as being of no further value...their religion and faith is now based on Paul's say-so.

Here's another version. When Paul hears that the church is going to study the scriptures to see if what He as been telling them is true, he gets the huff and storms off calling them unintelligent and beneath his dignity to bother with. " I am a graduate of Gamaliel's University" he says. "I know 5 languages, and you dare to not trust my word? You question whether I know what I am talking about? I suppose you are experts...hah! No serious students of Torah would ever think the way you do".
So he goes to Thessalonica to see if he can get any better reaction from them. He had heard after all that they were more intelligent than those in Berea. They didn't need the scriptures to rely on...they would simply know what he was talking about and take him at his word, he thought.

 

[JimParker]

Bear with me a little while I relate a short fictional story.
Paul the Apostle is preaching to the Jews in the synagogue on sabbath as his custom was, and at the end of his treatise the head rabbi, after a short discussion with the elders of the synagogue, tells Paul that the teaching he is sharing, though strange, will from that time on become standard doctrine for the Berean assembly. Because of his exalted educational status as a graduate from Gamaliel's Theological University, they decide to trust Paul that he is telling them the truth. From that moment on the Berean church becomes known as the church of Paul. The scriptures are discarded as being of no further value...their religion and faith is now based on Paul's say-so.

Here's another version. When Paul hears that the church is going to study the scriptures to see if what He as been telling them is true, he gets the huff and storms off calling them unintelligent and beneath his dignity to bother with. " I am a graduate of Gamaliel's University" he says. "I know 5 languages, and you dare to not trust my word? You question whether I know what I am talking about? I suppose you are experts...hah! No serious students of Torah would ever think the way you do".
So he goes to Thessalonica to see if he can get any better reaction from them. He had heard after all that they were more intelligent than those in Berea. They didn't need the scriptures to rely on...they would simply know what he was talking about and take him at his word, he thought.

The quality of the average "exegesis" that I have seen here in this forum is dismal.

People without a good command of the English language are trying to tell me what the KJV (a language they do not speak) means.

Act 17:11 These (Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Notice that they "received the word with all readiness." Everybody here seems to be his own self-appointed Bible genius with not training whatsoever.

When they searched the scriptures they found that Paul, who had been trained by one of the best theologians of his day, was right.

Very much of what I am seeing here is garbage based on the teachings of ignorant charlatans and false prophets like E.G.White and C.T. Russell.

So your little fictions are cute but 'll still stick to the 3-digit IQ folk.

 

[ATP]

So your little fictions are cute but 'll still stick to the 3-digit IQ folk.

You're good at insulting people. I'll give you that. Oh, and ignoring people who ask you questions. That doesn't take a high IQ.