12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment
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Right. Well, when you're following the right doctrines, the heart and mind of God truly comes to life. The problem is with sci-fi, hollywood, witchcraft, etc..being absorbed into society.Butch5 said:
I don't have to prove it, the Bible tells us man is tripartite as God is. We are created in God's image so if God is spirit and we are not, then what image are we created in?Butch5 said:
You can't just ignore some scripture and force you interpretation on others. Luke 1:47 shows we are Body, Soul and Spirit, and it's not the only one.
You can also see this in the following;
Luke 1:80
Luke 8:55
Luke 23:46
John 3:6
John 4:24
John 11:33
John 13:21
Acts 7:59
Heb 4:12
You keep saying this but you don't or won't provide corroboration for your assertions, just denials.
I don't see where this has been mentioned previously, but thought I might bring it up. It relates to a passage in Jude, verses 6 and 7.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
It is assumed by many that these fallen angels, the one third of the angelic population of heaven that rebelled with Lucifer, are in some spiritual dungeon somewhere awaiting judgement. I do think that we can read too literally such passages, when a simple spiritual understanding may be more appropriate. I see nearly every single day the profound and extremely ugly effects of demonic (fallen angels) activity throughout the world. I have personally witnessed not just the fruits of their activity, but seen demons. I do not intend here to expound on different things I have witnessed, no need to give the enemy any more credit for the damage they have caused. Suffice to say, fallen angels are not in some dark firelit dungeon grovelling around blindly and cursing God for their misery. No,no. They are very active throughout the world, and it is indeed a blind man who cannot see this. Thus the chains they are bound with are chains of condemnation. They are everlasting, these angels have had their opportunity for repentance...for them there is absolutely no hope. They are in 'reserve' mode, awaiting the final sentence and fate. Destruction in the lake of fire.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude is telling us here that Sodom and Gomorrah are a type of example of what these demons or fallen angels can expect. But not only them, but all sinners. The question then, what can they expect???? "Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Oh, one says. The cities of the plain were burnt with eternal fire? Goodness, does that mean they are still burning???!!! No folks, it does not. The result of the eternal fire being thrown down upon those cities was their destruction. Thus we can now know for an absolute certainty a number of points.
Eternal fire is eternal, but not necessarily the things that it comes into contact with.
Fallen angels are not immortal. They shall be destroyed.
Sinners are not immortal. They shall be destroyed.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
It is assumed by many that these fallen angels, the one third of the angelic population of heaven that rebelled with Lucifer, are in some spiritual dungeon somewhere awaiting judgement. I do think that we can read too literally such passages, when a simple spiritual understanding may be more appropriate. I see nearly every single day the profound and extremely ugly effects of demonic (fallen angels) activity throughout the world. I have personally witnessed not just the fruits of their activity, but seen demons. I do not intend here to expound on different things I have witnessed, no need to give the enemy any more credit for the damage they have caused. Suffice to say, fallen angels are not in some dark firelit dungeon grovelling around blindly and cursing God for their misery. No,no. They are very active throughout the world, and it is indeed a blind man who cannot see this. Thus the chains they are bound with are chains of condemnation. They are everlasting, these angels have had their opportunity for repentance...for them there is absolutely no hope. They are in 'reserve' mode, awaiting the final sentence and fate. Destruction in the lake of fire.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude is telling us here that Sodom and Gomorrah are a type of example of what these demons or fallen angels can expect. But not only them, but all sinners. The question then, what can they expect???? "Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Oh, one says. The cities of the plain were burnt with eternal fire? Goodness, does that mean they are still burning???!!! No folks, it does not. The result of the eternal fire being thrown down upon those cities was their destruction. Thus we can now know for an absolute certainty a number of points.
Eternal fire is eternal, but not necessarily the things that it comes into contact with.
Fallen angels are not immortal. They shall be destroyed.
Sinners are not immortal. They shall be destroyed.
Good point!brakelite said:
Correcto. Good post.brakelite said:
Dan 12:2 / Isa 66:24
The "worms" are mentioned in connection with the dead bodies, because they hasten the decomposition and represent the ignominy of corpses deprived of burial (Jer 25:33; Is 14:11; Job 7:5; 17:14; Acts 12:23). The figure of the fire that is not quenched is used frequently in Scripture to signify a fire that consumes (Ezek 20:47-48) and reduces to nothing (Am 5:5-6; Matt 3:12).
The Hebrew term deraon translated "contempt" also appears in Isaiah 66:24 in which it is translated "loathsome". The image of an unquencheable fire is simply designed to convey the thought of being completely burned up or consumed. It has nothing to do with the everlasting punishment of immortal souls. The passage speaks clearly of "dead bodies" which are consumed and not of immortal souls which are tormented eternally.
Isa 66:24 NIV "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome (deraon) to all mankind."
Dan 12:2 NIV Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (deraon).
Sorry Stan,StanJ said:
Nothing here says man is a spirit or that he is tripartite.
I've already stated that man has a spirit, it is God's breath of life that is in all flesh. However, that breath isn't the man.
I've already provided it. It's in the post you didn't address.
Why do you believe the gift of God is given to the wicked?
Come on Butch...your post 339 says I haven't proved man is a spirit then I give you all the verses that say he is and you still deny it? I also gave you the scriptures about man being made in God's image and you also ignore them so quite honestly you're just not being honest or responsive.Butch5 said:
I dealt with that as well Butch. God only breathed life into the life He created in Gen 1. After that life is procreated after it's own kind.
I've addressed ALL your posts and this type of response is typical of people who can't support their assertions.
I have no idea what you mean by this last question but ignoring all the scriptures I gave you just shows you can't refute what they teach. There is really no sense in carrying on with you seeing as you don't productively respond, you just deny.
NOT what the Bible teaches brakelite, despite your efforts to equivocate and prevaricate.brakelite said:
That you can't or won't see the correlation between the eternal fire and the eternal occupation of that fire is your problem not God's. IF your POV about annihilation was sound then there would be no need for eternal fire once all has been destroyed. Not only that, but changing connotations in the same sentence to fit your fallacious POV is just downright dishonest.
Jude never said S & G were destroyed by eternal fire, he wrote;
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
They are examples, they were not destroyed by eternal fire as is clearly shown in Gen 19:24-25;
Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
It really helps when you properly exegete the word of God and not eisegete.
Sinners are not immortal, souls are. You have to be a human being to sin, but it is the soul that is punished if the human is not saved, because we are ALL appointed to die once and then the judgment.
Stan says, Sinners are not immortal, souls are. You have to be a human being to sin, but it is the soul that is punished if the human is not saved, because we are ALL appointed to die once and then the judgment.
Sinners are not immortal, souls are?? Isn't their whole body raised up at the GWT?
Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Rev 20:5 NIV The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
Rev 20:13 NIV the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Sinners are not immortal, souls are?? Isn't their whole body raised up at the GWT?
Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Rev 20:5 NIV The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
Rev 20:13 NIV the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Stan. Equivocating and prevaricating? Fairly serious charges there . That I am deliberately avoiding telling the truth by writing ambiguously with the intention to deceive? You have the availability of the Bible as well as I, so I must assume you read the text from Jude, which says, Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. If eternal fire and destruction was not common to both events, how could the first be an example of the second?StanJ said:
Stan, I am simply reading the word and telling it like it is. It says eternal fire. Where is my deceit? Are you arguing with Jude? If he says the fire that destroyed those cities was eternal, then it was eternal. Period. Genesis says 'the Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven'..
.where is the contradiction? There is none. Genesis says fire. Jude says eternal fire. The fact that the fire is not burning today tells me only one thing. Our understanding of 'eternal' must be something different to what we have understood traditionally. What I would suggest is that eternal fire, (and there are examples elsewhere where the word says 'for ever and ever' but which lasts only as long as the life of the subject) can not be put out but goes out of its own accord when there is no more fuel to keep it burning. The lake of fire is a great example, for this fire at the very end which destroys everything and everyone outside of the city, happens on the earth itself. Yet we live on that very earth shortly after when it is recreated anew. I am positive that we do not live amidst flames for all eternity. What the fire has accomplished is to clean the place up in preparation for our new abode, for throughout scripture fire is a means by which God has cleansed the earth of sin, and in the future, sinners.
As for your last sentence, that souls cannot die....not prevaricating here Stan, I just believe what I read, especially when it agrees with he rest of God's word and is consistent.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Well I suppose that is a given. seeing as it is the Word of God you're doing it to. I don't know you brakelite, but words are telling, and that's what they tell me. Yes I do have access to many Bibles and I quoted them to show how you equivocated about the wording. Anyone with high school grammar would not make the mistakes you have so I can only assume they are deliberate.brakelite said:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
You're reading the words and forcing your dogma into them, which is eisegesis, instead of letting words and ALL scripture confirm what they are conveying, which is exegesis. It doesn't say the fire that destroyed those cities is eternal. READ IT. It says they are examples for those that WILL suffer eternal punishment. 2 Peter 2:6 shows that just as clearly. I also quoted Gen 19:24-25 above and it as well does NOT say anything about eternal fire. READ IT.
Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
The connotation of any word, that does have multiple connotations, is ALWAYS based on the context and setting in those scriptures. You can't or at least should not insert or infer something that is not clearly present.
The lake of fire is also clearly defined in Rev 20:14 & 15, and based on the entirety of the NT shows that it is an eternal place of punishment, not a one time place where souls are destroyed or annihilated. There is no need for eternal fire if there is nothing left to annihilate. Plus it is a spiritual destination, not a physical one.
As far as Ezek 18:4 & 20 is concerned the word connotes LIFE, not spiritual souls. The Hebrew word is nephesh, which connotes life force.
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Maybe if you read a modern English translation you wouldn't make these grammatical errors, but I quite frankly doubt it.
1 Cor 15 makes the connection between mortal and immortality. It also uses the word "mortal". For example, nonbelievers will not be clothed with the imperishable. So they would remain mortal, which is not living forever.
1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
We see from Malachi:4:1-3 and Mark:9:47-48 that any human being thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed. He will perish. His punishment will be eternal. But he will not be tormented for eternity.
Revelation:20:10 is speaking of Satan the devil being cast into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's 1,000-year reign. Reference to the Beast and False Prophet being cast in is only parenthetical here—as they will have died when that happened 1,000 years earlier. They will not still be burning there. Thus being tormented "forever and ever" applies principally to Satan—and presumably to his demonic cohorts as well (compare Matthew:25:41).
Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Greek phrase translated "forever and ever" here, eis tous aionas ton aionon, literally means "unto the ages of the ages." While this might mean for eternity, it could also mean until the culmination of the ages, which would allow for an ending point soon after the casting into the fire.
1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
We see from Malachi:4:1-3 and Mark:9:47-48 that any human being thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed. He will perish. His punishment will be eternal. But he will not be tormented for eternity.
Revelation:20:10 is speaking of Satan the devil being cast into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's 1,000-year reign. Reference to the Beast and False Prophet being cast in is only parenthetical here—as they will have died when that happened 1,000 years earlier. They will not still be burning there. Thus being tormented "forever and ever" applies principally to Satan—and presumably to his demonic cohorts as well (compare Matthew:25:41).
Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Greek phrase translated "forever and ever" here, eis tous aionas ton aionon, literally means "unto the ages of the ages." While this might mean for eternity, it could also mean until the culmination of the ages, which would allow for an ending point soon after the casting into the fire.
I can agree with one thing you've said, 'this type of response is typical of people who can't support their assertions'. I haven't seen anything from you that teaches that man is a spirit. Posting passages that say man has a spirit is not the same as saying man "IS" a spirit. If I say I have a truck that doesn't mean I am a truck. All you've given are passages that tell us man has spirit, no one is debating that.StanJ said:
You say you addressed my posts yet I haven't see a reply to the passages where olam and aion are used of finite periods of time. I've asked twice why you believe the gift of God is given to the wicked, no reply. You didn't address post 329 but rather said it's not formatted properly left it at that. So, it seems to me that if anyone is in denial here it's not me.
You said God only breathed life into the life He created in Gen 1. Scripture says otherwise.
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world? {the whole: Heb. all of it?}
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; {man: Heb. him}
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:12-15 KJV)
This passage states plainly that if God retrieved his Neshamah and His Ruach all flesh would perish. That means He is keep every living thing alive continuously. Also, notice that if God did retrieve His Neshamah and His Ruach, man would turn again to dust, not suffer for eternity.
Paul,
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)
In this passage life is a present tense participle. Notice the translation, He gives life to all things, not He gave, but, He gives.
Hi Brakelight,brakelite said:
Not only that but if the soul cannot die then there is no salvation because Scriptures says that Christ gave His soul for sins.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. (Isa 53:10 NKJ)
12 Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and <1> he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities. (Isa 53:12 LXE)
Scripture indicates that it was Christ's soul that was given for sins. If Christ's soul didn't die then there is no reconciliation.
Gen 2:7 NIV / Eccl 12:7 NIV
The only reason we are alive now is because of the breath of life. When we die the breath of life is taken away.
1. God formed man from the dust
2. God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
3. Only then did the man become a living being
Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
1. and the dust returns to the ground it came from
2. and the breath of life returns to God who gave it
Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
- ATP :)
The only reason we are alive now is because of the breath of life. When we die the breath of life is taken away.
1. God formed man from the dust
2. God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
3. Only then did the man become a living being
Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
1. and the dust returns to the ground it came from
2. and the breath of life returns to God who gave it
Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
- ATP :)
It's pretty solid evidence, especially to what happens between death and first resurrection.Butch5 said:
I think Stan might be looking for evidence that nonbelievers are consumed after Rev 20:5.
<< Since spirits are considered breath and wind>>ATP said:
That is total nonsense. No serious theologian considers spirits breath and wind.
But they do, because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. Do you know how to look up Hebrew and Greek words on http://biblehub.com/ ?JimParker said:
ATP said:
"Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them ... suffering the vengeance of eternal [aionios] fire." Jude 1:7. Are those cities, set ablaze long ago as a divine judgment, still burning? No; their ruins are quite submerged by the Dead Sea. The Bible itself specifically states that God turned "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes." 2 Peter 2:6. Now the fate of these cities is declared to be a warning to all wicked men of the fate that impends for them. Therefore if the "aionios fire" of that long ago judgment turned into ashes those upon whom it preyed, and then died down of itself, we may properly conclude that the "aionios fire" of the last day will do likewise. - See more at: http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/no-eternal-fire-but-yes-eternal-life#sthash.FLCD6Dnq.dpuf
"Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them ... suffering the vengeance of eternal [aionios] fire." Jude 1:7. Are those cities, set ablaze long ago as a divine judgment, still burning? No; their ruins are quite submerged by the Dead Sea. The Bible itself specifically states that God turned "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes." 2 Peter 2:6. Now the fate of these cities is declared to be a warning to all wicked men of the fate that impends for them. Therefore if the "aionios fire" of that long ago judgment turned into ashes those upon whom it preyed, and then died down of itself, we may properly conclude that the "aionios fire" of the last day will do likewise. - See more at: http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/no-eternal-fire-but-yes-eternal-life#sthash.FLCD6Dnq.dpuf
"Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them ... suffering the vengeance of eternal [aionios] fire." Jude 1:7. Are those cities, set ablaze long ago as a divine judgment, still burning? No; their ruins are quite submerged by the Dead Sea. The Bible itself specifically states that God turned "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes." 2 Peter 2:6. Now the fate of these cities is declared to be a warning to all wicked men of the fate that impends for them. Therefore if the "aionios fire" of that long ago judgment turned into ashes those upon whom it preyed, and then died down of itself, we may properly conclude that the "aionios fire" of the last day will do likewise. - See more at: http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/no-eternal-fire-but-yes-eternal-life#sthash.FLCD6Dnq.dpuf
Well I suppose that is a given. seeing as it is the Word of God you're doing it to. I don't know you brakelite, but words are telling, and that's what they tell me. Yes I do have access to many Bibles and I quoted them to show how you equivocated about the wording. Anyone with high school grammar would not make the mistakes you have so I can only assume they are deliberate.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
You're reading the words and forcing your dogma into them, which is eisegesis, instead of letting words and ALL scripture confirm what they are conveying, which is exegesis. It doesn't say the fire that destroyed those cities is eternal. READ IT. It says they are examples for those that WILL suffer eternal punishment. 2 Peter 2:6 shows that just as clearly. I also quoted Gen 19:24-25 above and it as well does NOT say anything about eternal fire. READ IT.
Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
The connotation of any word, that does have multiple connotations, is ALWAYS based on the context and setting in those scriptures. You can't or at least should not insert or infer something that is not clearly present.
The lake of fire is also clearly defined in Rev 20:14 & 15, and based on the entirety of the NT shows that it is an eternal place of punishment, not a one time place where souls are destroyed or annihilated. There is no need for eternal fire if there is nothing left to annihilate. Plus it is a spiritual destination, not a physical one.
As far as Ezek 18:4 & 20 is concerned the word connotes LIFE, not spiritual souls. The Hebrew word is nephesh, which connotes life force.
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Maybe if you read a modern English translation you wouldn't make these grammatical errors, but I quite frankly doubt it.
The supporters of ECT opine that 'death', as far as the wicked are concerned, is 'separation from God'. My question is: this 'death', which is clearly a variant of eternal life - is it natural, or a gift from God?
If it is a gift, it does seem incongruous that God would be granting eternal life to someone for the sole purpose of tormenting (or torturing) them. Where is justice and mercy? We rightly condemn Hitler for the atrocities committed with his approval and sanction, yet I dare say that Hitler only in his insanity would consider torturing anyone forever if he had the power. Yet we give God credit for this idea and call it justice?
And if the death of the wicked is not really death, (in other words God was lying to Adam and Satan was telling the truth when he said 'Ye shall not surely die") but we are all naturally immortal, then what are we to do with
1 Timothy 6:13 ¶ I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality......
Now of course one may answer "our bodies die but our spirits live for-ever". If that is the case you still have difficulty with the above verse, because God is Spirit. And according to that verse, the only immortal one.
For me there is really no difficulty regarding ECT. Either Jesus paid the full price for our atonement, or He didn't. If He did, then ECT is man-made, it goes beyond the price of redemption which Jesus paid. If Jesus didn't pay the full price of our redemption, then we are all doomed to ECT, regardless of whether we accepted Jesus sacrifice or not, for there was in such a case no true propitiation.
"Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them ... suffering the vengeance of eternal [aionios] fire." Jude 1:7. Are those cities, set ablaze long ago as a divine judgment, still burning? No; their ruins are quite submerged by the Dead Sea. The Bible itself specifically states that God turned "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes." 2 Peter 2:6. Now the fate of these cities is declared to be a warning to all wicked men of the fate that impends for them. Therefore if the "aionios fire" of that long ago judgment turned into ashes those upon whom it preyed, and then died down of itself, we may properly conclude that the "aionios fire" of the last day will do likewise. - See more at: http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/no-eternal-fire-but-yes-eternal-life#sthash.FLCD6Dnq.dpuf
"Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them ... suffering the vengeance of eternal [aionios] fire." Jude 1:7. Are those cities, set ablaze long ago as a divine judgment, still burning? No; their ruins are quite submerged by the Dead Sea. The Bible itself specifically states that God turned "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes." 2 Peter 2:6. Now the fate of these cities is declared to be a warning to all wicked men of the fate that impends for them. Therefore if the "aionios fire" of that long ago judgment turned into ashes those upon whom it preyed, and then died down of itself, we may properly conclude that the "aionios fire" of the last day will do likewise. - See more at: http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/no-eternal-fire-but-yes-eternal-life#sthash.FLCD6Dnq.dpuf
Well I suppose that is a given. seeing as it is the Word of God you're doing it to. I don't know you brakelite, but words are telling, and that's what they tell me. Yes I do have access to many Bibles and I quoted them to show how you equivocated about the wording. Anyone with high school grammar would not make the mistakes you have so I can only assume they are deliberate.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
You're reading the words and forcing your dogma into them, which is eisegesis, instead of letting words and ALL scripture confirm what they are conveying, which is exegesis. It doesn't say the fire that destroyed those cities is eternal. READ IT. It says they are examples for those that WILL suffer eternal punishment. 2 Peter 2:6 shows that just as clearly. I also quoted Gen 19:24-25 above and it as well does NOT say anything about eternal fire. READ IT.
Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
The connotation of any word, that does have multiple connotations, is ALWAYS based on the context and setting in those scriptures. You can't or at least should not insert or infer something that is not clearly present.
The lake of fire is also clearly defined in Rev 20:14 & 15, and based on the entirety of the NT shows that it is an eternal place of punishment, not a one time place where souls are destroyed or annihilated. There is no need for eternal fire if there is nothing left to annihilate. Plus it is a spiritual destination, not a physical one.
As far as Ezek 18:4 & 20 is concerned the word connotes LIFE, not spiritual souls. The Hebrew word is nephesh, which connotes life force.
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Maybe if you read a modern English translation you wouldn't make these grammatical errors, but I quite frankly doubt it.
The supporters of ECT opine that 'death', as far as the wicked are concerned, is 'separation from God'. My question is: this 'death', which is clearly a variant of eternal life - is it natural, or a gift from God?
If it is a gift, it does seem incongruous that God would be granting eternal life to someone for the sole purpose of tormenting (or torturing) them. Where is justice and mercy? We rightly condemn Hitler for the atrocities committed with his approval and sanction, yet I dare say that Hitler only in his insanity would consider torturing anyone forever if he had the power. Yet we give God credit for this idea and call it justice?
And if the death of the wicked is not really death, (in other words God was lying to Adam and Satan was telling the truth when he said 'Ye shall not surely die") but we are all naturally immortal, then what are we to do with
1 Timothy 6:13 ¶ I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality......
Now of course one may answer "our bodies die but our spirits live for-ever". If that is the case you still have difficulty with the above verse, because God is Spirit. And according to that verse, the only immortal one.
For me there is really no difficulty regarding ECT. Either Jesus paid the full price for our atonement, or He didn't. If He did, then ECT is man-made, it goes beyond the price of redemption which Jesus paid. If Jesus didn't pay the full price of our redemption, then we are all doomed to ECT, regardless of whether we accepted Jesus sacrifice or not, for there was in such a case no true propitiation.
I am a seminary graduate. I studied Biblical languages.ATP said:
I not only know how to look them up; I also know how to determine which English word best fits the context.
Wind and breath do not fit anywhere that any translation of the Bible has rendered "spirit."
But I do not depend on my graduate studies because I am not an expert. I depend on the work of real experts. You are not an expert because you have found a place to look up words.
Why would you possible imagine that, because you know where to go online and look up a word in the Bible, that you are a better Bible translator than the thousands of men and women who have actually studied those languages as their lives' work who render the word "spirit" when it is appropriate to do so?
How many Bibles, that are accepted by any serious scholar, renders Jesus' words at Luke 23:46, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My BREATH.”? Or Mary's words at Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my breath has rejoiced in God my Savior."
Not a single one.
Please explain to me why you know better?
PRETTY please.
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