12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[Critical_Thinker]

You're not making the connection between Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15.

5. Rev 20:12-15 gives us the place, the lake of fire. Rev 20:10 gives us the duration of the lake of fire, forever and ever.
6. If the false prophet and the devil are tormented forever and ever, then wouldn't nonbelievers also be tormented forever and ever.
7. How can one be tormented forever and ever if they cease to exist.

Conclusion: Since nonbelievers are going into the same lake of fire as the false prophet and the devil, the torment is for both. - ATP


The lake of fire is not a symbol for Sodom or Jerusalem's fire burning out. These are places on earth. The lake of fire is not of this earth, it only exists in the afterlife.

I showed from the Bible that the word perish, when used to describe the fate of the wicked, means annihilation: "But the wicked shall perish....into smoke shall they consume away." (Psalm 37:20) You did not respond to this.

I also showed that "their smoke shall ascend for ever and ever" is symbolic and that unquenchable fire does not mean eternal fire :)

 

[ATP]

I showed from the Bible that the word perish, when used to describe the fate of the wicked, means annihilation: "But the wicked shall perish....into smoke shall they consume away." (Psalm 37:20) You did not respond to this.

I also showed that "their smoke shall ascend for ever and ever" is symbolic and that unquenchable fire does not mean eternal fire :)

Perish does not mean annihilation, it simply means they do not have eternal life. Psalm 37:20 reflects off of Psalm 68:1, their smoke of eternal torment. Psalm 37:20 is referring to enemies scattering on this old earth. The words 'consumed' and 'smoke' here is symbolic for earthly scattering. It has nothing to do with the lake of fire in the afterlife. Notice Psalm 37:20 is using the word 'like'...He's using the words 'consumed' and 'smoke' to describe the flowers of the field, as a simple metaphor..

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
Psalm 68:1 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. A song. May God arise, may his enemies be scattered; may his foes flee before him.

- ATP :)

 

[Critical_Thinker]

Perish does not mean annihilation, it simply means they do not have eternal life. Psalm 37:20 reflects off of Psalm 68:1, their smoke of eternal torment. Psalm 37:20 is referring to enemies scattering on this old earth. The words 'consumed' and 'smoke' here is symbolic for earthly scattering. It has nothing to do with the lake of fire in the afterlife. Notice Psalm 37:20 is using the word 'like'...He's using the words 'consumed' and 'smoke' to describe the flowers of the field, as a simple metaphor..

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
Psalm 68:1 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. A song. May God arise, may his enemies be scattered; may his foes flee before him.

- ATP :)

John 3:16 says that those who believe not in the Son of God will perish, and Psalm 37:20 says that perish is to be consumed away into smoke, which also agrees with Hebrews 10:27 which says that the fire shall consume the wicked. Whenever the fire consumed someone in the Bible they were annihilated. And if you disagree, please prove that the word perish means eternal life in hell.

 

[ATP]

Psalm 37:20 says that perish is to be consumed away into smoke

Psalm 37:20 is not speaking of the afterlife, it is used only metaphorically to describe flowers on earth. Do you see?

which also agrees with Hebrews 10:27 which says that the fire shall consume the wicked. Whenever the fire consumed someone in the Bible they were annihilated.

Heb 10:27 - You ignored vs 26. Heb 10:26-27 is referring to nonbelievers sinning until there is no good left in them. God is speaking about how he will consume them on this earth, it has nothing to do with the afterlife. (If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.)

And if you disagree, please prove that the word perish means eternal life in hell.

I've been doing that sir. Are you reading my posts thoroughly?

 

[Critical_Thinker]

Psalm 37:20 is not speaking of the afterlife, it is used only metaphorically to describe flowers on earth. Do you see?


Heb 10:27 - You ignored vs 26. Heb 10:26-27 is referring to nonbelievers sinning until there is no good left in them. God is speaking about how he will consume them on this earth, it has nothing to do with the afterlife. (If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.)


I've been doing that sir. Are you reading my posts thoroughly?

You miss my point. My point is that John 3:16 says that the punishment of non believers is to perish, and Psalms 37:20 is clear that perish is to consume away into smoke. Hebrews 10:27 seems clear enough to me, that the final punishment of the wicked is to be consumed. It says nothing about God sending fire down on them before the judgement day. So far I have seen nothing that suggests perish means eternal life in hell.

 

[ATP]

You miss my point. My point is that John 3:16 says that the punishment of non believers is to perish, and Psalms 37:20 is clear that perish is to consume away into smoke. Hebrews 10:27 seems clear enough to me, that the final punishment of the wicked is to be consumed. It says nothing about God sending fire down on them before the judgement day. So far I have seen nothing that suggests perish means eternal life in hell.

You got the words right. I mean Psalm 37:20 does have the word smoke in it. Heb 10:27 has the word consumed in it. But you're taking these scriptures waay out of context, and you're not debating anything I've said.

 

[brakelite]

Certainly, as has been mentioned, this topic has been a hot (pun not intended) topic for a long time. There was a time when I believd as many do here, that eternal torment is a sure desiny for the wicked..I remember preaching on this many times. But 15 years ago I came to realise 3 major things which I believe are unarguable, putting the lie to my former belief system.
If eternal torment is true...if eternal torment is indeed the just punishment due the sinner...
1. Jesus did not spend eternity in torment, therefore my sins are not forgiven, the price of redemption not paid.
2. The nature of God forbids any scenario where His sense of justice is never satisfied...where justice is never accomplished, and so perverted and twisted that the price for sin is never fully paid for by the sinner, where the transgressor must spend eternity paying for a short life of sin, in some cases still children; and where that child, maybe an eleven year old, who died 700 years ago and presumably suffering now, suffers longer that the cruelest dictator who may die tomorrow.
3. The sinner is gifted eternal life along with the saint. The sinner merely resides at a different address. Yet we are told that 'death', merely means seperation from God. That the soul is immortal. And yet to accept all that, we need to believe that seperation from the only immortal life-giving Being in the universe, doesn't result in death? It simple does not make any sense whatsoever, aside from the fact that none of the above is taught in the Bible.

Yes, eternal punishment is taught. Death, from there is no hope of a resurrection, is eternal.
Yes, smoke ascends for ever and ever. Yet other instances in Hebrew literature(including the OT) speak of forever expiring at death.
Yes, the Bible speaks often of sinners suffering in flames. And so they will. According to that which was done in the body, a just duration of time according to God's true justice, until the sinner dies the second death.

It seems to me in my more enlightened mind today that for anyone to support or defend eternal torment, one must be determined to do so irrespective of any teaching to the contrary. It seems strange to me that any would go to such lengths as some do in order to so reduce God's character to that which the pagans ascribe their gods from ancient history. The god created by those who support eternal torment is one of mans invention. It is not the God revealed to us in His word, nor lived by the One who came to reveal Him.

 

[ATP]

The god created by those who support eternal torment is one of mans invention.

You mean that "man" invented Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, Mark 9:42-48, Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15??

It is not the God revealed to us in His word, nor lived by the One who came to reveal Him.

When you say 'word' are you referring to the Bible? Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, Mark 9:42-48, Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15. :wacko:

 

[brakelite]

You mean that "man" invented Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, Mark 9:42-48, Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15??


When you say 'word' are you referring to the Bible? Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, Mark 9:42-48, Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15. :wacko:

Not one of those scriptures are teaching what you claim they are, therefore the god you are teaching about is a false one.

 

[ATP]

Not one of those scriptures are teaching what you claim they are, therefore the god you are teaching about is a false one.

Ok then, what are they teaching. Please break it down for us. I'm all ears. Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, Mark 9:42-48, Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15.

 

[brakelite]

Ok then, what are they teaching. Please break it down for us. I'm all ears. Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46, Mark 9:42-48, Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15.

Though your request is dripping with unecessary sarcasm, I will oblige...perhaps there is a reader who may benefit...hope springs eternal. (pun intended.)
Daniel 12:2. This verse is saying that some shall be raised to everlasting contempt. Elsewhere the scriptures say that those sinners who are raised are destined also to die the second death. Nowhere is it intimated or suggested that they are either immortal or that they can in death 'be alive' sufficiently to feel pain, shame, or contempt. The contempt that is everlasting is our contempt for them. The shame is not something they feel...far too late for that. Nothing in this verse speaks of eternal conscious torment.

Matt. 25:46 Please note carefully what it is actually saying....everlasting punishment...it is not saying everlasting punishing. The death we experience on earth is not everlasting for we have hope of the resurrection. The second death however must be everlasting, because the scripture noweher suggests a second resurrection. that is the everlasting aspect of the punishent. Death without hope. Death without life. Death without a resurrection. Eternal death. Precisely the exact opposite to eternal life.

Mark 9:42-48 Unquenchable fire ...can you put out unquenchable fire? Obviously not. Can the fire go out of its own accord when there is nothing left to serve as fuel? Malachi 4:1,3 may answer this for you. How can we walk the new earth if the fire is still raging? Oh, yes, hell is on the earth...not under it or elsewhere...see Revelation 20:9;2 Peter 3:7
As for the worm that dies not...are you suggesting that along with immortal souls the wicked are eaten by immortal worms? In this instance Jesus used the word gehenna...translated 'hell'...gehenna being the name of the local recycling depot...no, sorry...no recycling here, everything was destroyed. What the worms and bugs and maggots couldn't eat, the fire finished. Point being that Jesus was using the local tip as a metaphr for the final punishment of the wicked. In neither place did anything survive.

Revelation 20:10 Okay, this has been answered before, but for your benefit will say it again. Maybe this time it will get through. You cannot make any Biblical expression or word or passage understandable without reference to its ancient contextual usage. I suggest you read Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6.
Point 1. Clearly the 'eternal fire' that destroyed Sodom is not now still burning.
Point 2. Peter used that 'eternal fire' as an example of what would happen to the wicked. Which was????

Revelation 20:12-15 I am not sure what your point is here with these verses. No-one is arguing about the reality of a final punishment. Nor is anyone arguing over its duration. The punishment is final, and the duration is eternal. The question is reagrding the nature of the punishment. God calls it death. For the life of me I cannot understand why Christians are so determined to claim that the word 'death' in the Bible means something totally different to every other book on the planet. And for that matter every dictionary as well. Likewise words which are among the most powerful and succinct, each with a distinct and clear meaning, such as "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," are given meanings the exact opposite to what every writer would intend by their usage.

One more point. The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. 2 Peter 3:7. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn."
The question I would ask is this. When is the harvest??? Your answer will be identical to the time when sinners are thrown into fire to be burnt.

 

[logabe]

After reading these posts I find most of the human race doesn't have a
chance to make it. Most will either be tormented forever or they could
possibly be annihilated, which can soothe the conscience and make a
person feel a little better about his daughter or son that took to much
heroin.

Come on people... God is a lot better than that!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

Daniel 12:2. The contempt that is everlasting is our contempt for them.

If that were so, then Dan 12:2 would read, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: all believers to everlasting life and also to shame and everlasting contempt for nonbelievers."

But it doesn't say that, it specifically separates two different people with two different emotions and paths. (SOME AND OTHERS).

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt. 25:46 Please note carefully what it is actually saying....everlasting punishment...it is not saying everlasting punishing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here.

because the scripture noweher suggests a second resurrection.

But isn't punishment the result of being judged. Nonbelievers are judged at the Great White Throne.

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Revelation 20:10 Okay, this has been answered before, but for your benefit will say it again. Maybe this time it will get through. You cannot make any Biblical expression or word or passage understandable without reference to its ancient contextual usage. I suggest you read Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6.
Point 1. Clearly the 'eternal fire' that destroyed Sodom is not now still burning.
Point 2. Peter used that 'eternal fire' as an example of what would happen to the wicked. Which was????

But the lake of fire and Gehenna are two completely different places. One exists on this earth, and the other in the afterlife. One is a valley, the other is a lake.

Revelation 20:12-15 I am not sure what your point is here with these verses. No-one is arguing about the reality of a final punishment. Nor is anyone arguing over its duration. The punishment is final, and the duration is eternal. The question is reagrding the nature of the punishment. God calls it death. For the life of me I cannot understand why Christians are so determined to claim that the word 'death' in the Bible means something totally different to every other book on the planet. And for that matter every dictionary as well. Likewise words which are among the most powerful and succinct, each with a distinct and clear meaning, such as "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," are given meanings the exact opposite to what every writer would intend by their usage.

My point is, why judge someone and then annihilate them. Punishment is the result of judgment. If you cease to exist, how can you be aware of your punishment. If the false prophet and the devil are tormented forever and ever, then wouldn't nonbelievers also be tormented forever and ever. How can one be tormented forever and ever if they cease to exist. Since nonbelievers are going into the same lake of fire as the false prophet and the devil, the torment is for both. It's not torment if you cease to exist.

One more point. The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished.

Soul sleep is reserved for the Soul Sleep thread.

 

[KingJ]

After reading these posts I find most of the human race doesn't have a
chance to make it. Most will either be tormented forever or they could
possibly be annihilated, which can soothe the conscience and make a
person feel a little better about his daughter or son that took to much
heroin.

Come on people... God is a lot better than that!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

I like your line Logabe :).

David echoes your thoughts in Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because the Lord is good. :wub:

And if you disagree, please prove that the word perish means eternal life in hell.

Prov 8:36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves; all who hate me love death.
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.

Death above means hating God and being in sin.

1. God calls it death. For the life of me I cannot understand why Christians are so determined to claim that the word 'death' in the Bible means something totally different to every other book on the planet. And for that matter every dictionary as well. Likewise words which are among the most powerful and succinct, each with a distinct and clear meaning, such as "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," are given meanings the exact opposite to what every writer would intend by their usage.

2. One more point. The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. 2 Peter 3:7.

1. You answered your question. It is because '''God calls it death''. We are not God. God describes things from His vantage point. He says the wicked love death. He says the wicked are dead in their sins. He says the wicked are lost. The wicked disagree on all these points however. But as Christians we can grasp what God is saying.

2. What you need to do is add Rom 2:6. Each person en route to hell is judged according to their deeds. Now what is really baffling is how someone can believe a death sentence is a fitting punishment for every crime.

Granted, annihilation > eternal torture. But why cant we just add Matt 5:44 to all those that go to hell and grasp that the worse thing about hell is simply banishment and regret?

God > Geneva convention....SuReLy..... :blink:

Am I like the only Christian on this planet that grasps that God still loves demons > pigs and God LOVES pigs?

What is very interesting about the Geneva convention is that the unsaved have ordained in their great wisdom that removal to concentration camps, providing clean living quarters, sporting facilities and food on par / almost on par with their troops is proper treatment of the ENEMY that sent their troops, children, babies, mothers, grandmothers, aunts and uncles to GAS CHAMBERS.

But we as Christians believe a worse punishment is fitting. What's perhaps worse is that we believe God believes a worse punishment is fitting and we accept that that God is .....just and good... :huh:.

 

[Butch5]

Some have argued that Hell is eternal, however, that cannot be. The English word eternal is translated wrong from the Greek word Aionios. Jesus spoke of the fire in Gehenna, however, Jeremiah prophesied that one day Gehenna would be made holy to the Lord.

 

[ATP]

Some have argued that Hell is eternal, however, that cannot be. The English word eternal is translated wrong from the Greek word Aionios. Jesus spoke of the fire in Gehenna, however, Jeremiah prophesied that one day Gehenna would be made holy to the Lord.

But isn't the lake of fire a different place then Gehenna? One is a lake, the other is a valley.

 

[Butch5]

But isn't the lake of fire a different place then Gehenna? One is a lake, the other is a valley.

I don't think so. Jesus said the wicked will be cast into Gehenna and John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. It seems to me they have to be the same place. The book of Revelation is full of symbols and I think the Lake of Fire is symbol of Gehenna.

 

[ATP]

Jesus said the wicked will be cast into Gehenna

Can provide scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Can provide scripture.

KJV Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Mat 5:29 KJV)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 KJV)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mat 23:15 KJV)

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mat 23:33 KJV)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luk 12:5 KJV)

In all of these passages the word hell is Gehenna.

You're not making the connection between Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:12-15.

5. Rev 20:12-15 gives us the place, the lake of fire. Rev 20:10 gives us the duration of the lake of fire, forever and ever.
6. If the false prophet and the devil are tormented forever and ever, then wouldn't nonbelievers also be tormented forever and ever.
7. How can one be tormented forever and ever if they cease to exist.

Conclusion: Since nonbelievers are going into the same lake of fire as the false prophet and the devil, the torment is for both. - ATP


The lake of fire is not a symbol for Sodom or Jerusalem's fire burning out. These are places on earth. The lake of fire is not of this earth, it only exists in the afterlife.

Forever and ever is mistranslated, it should read ages of ages, not eternity. However, we have an example of eternal fire.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

We see here that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire and they are not still burning today. However, they were so utterly consumed, that as far as I know, no one knows exactly where those cities were located. It's my understanding that nothing has been found of them.

 

[ATP]

KJV Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Mat 5:29 KJV)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 KJV)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mat 23:15 KJV)

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mat 23:33 KJV)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luk 12:5 KJV)

In all of these passages the word hell is Gehenna.

1. But how does this prove that the lake of fire in Revelation is the same as the Valley of Hinnom in the OT?
2. A lake is not a valley.
3. Since Gehenna is only used metaphorically to describe a trash heap burning, why would we compare that to a spiritual hell (lake of fire)?
4. A trash heap is not a lake.
5. Where is this lake inside the valley?
6. My question is, what would make you think Gehenna is a spiritual lake of fire in the afterlife?

http://www.reference.com/browse/gehenna- "It is not described as a spiritual hell but a literal valley in Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8, Joshua 18:16, 2nd Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 2nd Chronicles 33:6,Nehemiah 11:30, Jeremiah 7:31~32, Jeremiah 19:2, Jeremiah 19:6, Jeremiah 32:35) After 638 B.C. , the valley of Hinnom and the valley of the son of Hinnom became the place for burning rubbish from Jerusalem." - Reference(dot)com