12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[KingJ]

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

It is a forgiveable mistake. Hades and lake of fire are both places described as having fire. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

 

[ATP]

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

It is a forgiveable mistake. Hades and lake of fire are both places described as having fire. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Where do you see Hades having fire?

 

[Butch5]

1. But how does this prove that the lake of fire in Revelation is the same as the Valley of Hinnom in the OT?
2. A lake is not a valley.
3. Since Gehenna is only used metaphorically to describe a trash heap burning, why would we compare that to a spiritual hell (lake of fire)?
4. A trash heap is not a lake.
5. Where is this lake inside the valley?
6. My question is, what would make you think Gehenna is a spiritual lake of fire in the afterlife?

http://www.reference.com/browse/gehenna- "It is not described as a spiritual hell but a literal valley in Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8, Joshua 18:16, 2nd Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 2nd Chronicles 33:6,Nehemiah 11:30, Jeremiah 7:31~32, Jeremiah 19:2, Jeremiah 19:6, Jeremiah 32:35) After 638 B.C. , the valley of Hinnom and the valley of the son of Hinnom became the place for burning rubbish from Jerusalem." - Reference(dot)com

I don't know what you mean by a spiritual hell. There are three words translated by the English word hell, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

1. The don't prove it, what they do show that there are two places where the wicked are said to Go. This creates a problem since Jesus said they went to one place and John said they went to another. It would seem that either there is an error or they are the same place.

2. A lake is not fire either, it's water. However, if John is using symbolic language then it sense.

3. Gehenna is not used metaphorically, but is where the wicked will be burned.

4. And the armies of the world are not going to be battling on a trash heap.

5. To my knowledge the exact location isn't given.

6. I don't think Gehenna is a spiritual lake of fire in the afterlife. I think Gehenna is the place where the wicked will be destroyed. I'm not sure why you think there is a spiritual lake of fire or what that even is. Regarding an afterlife, I would submit that other than the resurrection, there is none.

 

[ATP]

This creates a problem since Jesus said they went to one place and John said they went to another. It would seem that either there is an error or they are the same place.

Hmmm. If there are errors in the Word of God, then what does that say about God. Are you asking why John used the term 'Lake of Fire'?

 

[Butch5]

Hmmm. If there are errors in the Word of God, then what does that say about God. Are you asking why John used the term 'Lake of Fire'?

That's my point, the logical conclusion is that the Lake of Fire and Gehenna are the same place. Consider this, John, in the book of Revelation is the only one to use the term, "Lake of Fire". He didn't even use it in his Gospel. This suggests to me that the term didn't exist until John received the Revelation. The Revelation is a book filled with symbolism. Jeremiah prophesied about Gehenna.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:39-40 KJV)

If the whole valley of dead bodies was burning wouldn't that look like a lake of fire? Compare this with the prophecy from Isaiah.


23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:23-1 KJV)

Jesus quotes this and calls it Gehenna. Gehenna is in the Valley of the Son Hinnom. In both prophesies we have a valley, dead bodies, and fire.

 

[ATP]

He didn't even use it in his Gospel.

What do you mean.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:39-40 KJV)

If the whole valley of dead bodies was burning wouldn't that look like a lake of fire? Compare this with the prophecy from Isaiah.


23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:23-1 KJV)

Jesus quotes this and calls it Gehenna. Gehenna is in the Valley of the Son Hinnom. In both prophesies we have a valley, dead bodies, and fire.

Ok, I did a little bit of studying, and I will agree.
I do have some final questions however.
What about Daniel 12:2 and Matt 25:46 and the word everlasting/eternal.
Why is everlasting/eternal only used metaphorically to describe the valley, but eternal life means forever?
Also, does ages and ages mean days, years or simply the full 1,000 years?

From Commentaries
Gehenna - Matt 5:29, Matt 10:28, Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33
Gehenna/Valley of Hinnom - Mark 9:43-48, Luke 12:5
Valley of Hinnom - Jer 31:39-40
Gehenna/Valley of Hinnom/1,000 Year Reign - Isa 66:23-24
Eternal fire/Metaphor/Fire eventually burned out - Jude 1:7

Gehenna - This is simply Gee-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom," translated into Greek letters· This valley was situated in the neighborhood of Jerusalem, and originally was noted for the infamous rites practiced there in the worship of Moloch, in the times of the idolatrous kings of Judah.

Mal 4:1-6 - Judgment and Covenant Renewal

1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

4“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

 

[Butch5]

What do you mean.


Ok, I did a little bit of studying, and I will agree.
I do have some final questions however.
What about Daniel 12:2 and Matt 25:46 and the word everlasting/eternal.
Why is everlasting/eternal only used metaphorically to describe the valley, but eternal life means forever?
Also, does ages and ages mean days, years or simply the full 1,000 years?

From Commentaries
Gehenna - Matt 5:29, Matt 10:28, Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33
Gehenna/Valley of Hinnom - Mark 9:43-48, Luke 12:5
Valley of Hinnom - Jer 31:39-40
Gehenna/Valley of Hinnom/1,000 Year Reign - Isa 66:23-24
Eternal fire/Metaphor/Fire eventually burned out - Jude 1:7

Gehenna - This is simply Gee-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom," translated into Greek letters· This valley was situated in the neighborhood of Jerusalem, and originally was noted for the infamous rites practiced there in the worship of Moloch, in the times of the idolatrous kings of Judah.

Mal 4:1-6 - Judgment and Covenant Renewal

1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

4“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

The phrase, "Lake of Fire" doesn't appear in any book except Revelation. John doesn't use the term in either his Gospel or his letters. This suggests to me that the term was given to him during the vision that is Revelation.

Regarding Daniel 12:2 and Mathew 25:46, I believe the word "everlasting" is mistranslated. The Hebrew word "owlam" (Daniel 12:2) carries the idea of time unseen or what is over the horizon. Rather than me trying to explain it here is link to a site that deals with ancient Hebrew, "olam." Greek doesn't really have a word to describe that so the translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word "aionion" which is the adjective form of the word "aion" which means an age. In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion"

The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal.


13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. (Exo 40:13-15 KJV)

The word everlasting in this passage is translated from the word "olam." In the Englsih translation this passage says that the priesthood of Aaron is everlasting, yet we know that is not the case because Paul said the priesthood was changed.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:12 KJV)


32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: {consecrate: Heb. fill his hand}
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. (Lev 16:32-34 KJV)

Here again, this passage says this would be an everlasting ordinance in the English translation, yet Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John and Paul said that Christ had abolished the commandments contained in ordinances.


There are many passages like this that use olam of finite periods of time. We can see from these passages that translating it as everlasting isn't correct because these events are not everlasting.

Likewise with aionios.


14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.
15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. (Num 15:14-15 KJV)

Here again we see an ordinance of the Law said to be for ever in the English translation but that according to Jesus and Paul has ended. I believe Young's Literal Translation has the correct rendering of these passages.


32 'And the priest whom he doth anoint, and whose hand he doth consecrate to act as priest instead of his father, hath made atonement, and hath put on the linen garments, the holy garments;
33 and he hath made atonement for the holy sanctuary; and for the tent of meeting, even for the altar he doth make atonement; yea, for the priests, and for all the people of the assembly he maketh atonement.
34 'And this hath been to you for a statute age-during, to make atonement for the sons of Israel, because of all their sins, once in a year;' and he doth as Jehovah hath commanded Moses. (Lev 16:32-34 YLT)



13 and thou hast clothed Aaron with the holy garments, and anointed him, and sanctified him, and he hath acted as priest to Me.
14 'And his sons thou dost bring near, and hast clothed them with coats,
15 and anointed them as thou hast anointed their father, and they have acted as priests to Me, and their anointing hath been to be to them for a priesthood age-during, to their generations.' (Exo 40:13-15 YLT)



13 every native doth thus with these, at bringing near a fire-offering of sweet fragrance to Jehovah;
14 and when a sojourner sojourneth with you, or whoso is in your midst to your generations, and he hath made a fire-offering of sweet fragrance to Jehovah, as ye do so he doth.
15 'One statute is for you of the congregation and for the sojourner who is sojourning, a statute age-during to your generations: as ye are so is the sojourner before Jehovah; (Num 15:13-15 YLT)


I think "age-during" is a much more accurate translation. So, I don't think aionios life means eternal life but rather age-during life. So, if this means life age-during how do we know that the believe will live forever? The answer is in Jesus words.


34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:34-36 NKJ)

"Nor can they die anymore" that is eternal life

 

[ATP]

The phrase, "Lake of Fire" doesn't appear in any book except Revelation. John doesn't use the term in either his Gospel or his letters. This suggests to me that the term was given to him during the vision that is Revelation.

So why do you think God chose the word 'lake'? Also, if nonbelievers are thrown in the lake of fire after the 1,000 year reign, then how long do believers have to wait until nonbelievers are turned into ashes, so as to live on the New Earth without the lake burning. Believers have to wait ages and ages??

Good posts by the way, you convinced me. - ATP

 

[KingJ]

Where do you see Hades having fire?

Luke 16

 

[Butch5]

So why do you think God chose the word 'lake'? Also, if nonbelievers are thrown in the lake of fire after the 1,000 year reign, then how long do believers have to wait until nonbelievers are turned into ashes, so as to live on the New Earth without the lake burning. Believers have to wait ages and ages??

Good posts by the way, you convinced me. - ATP

Hi ATP,

Thanks! These questions I don't have an answer for. An age has to be determined by the context and I don't think wer'e told anywhere how long that will be. It could be for the 1000 years as that is the 7th day.

Luke 16

Hi KingJ,

I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. In the Song of Moses God Moses a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding to.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. {abhorred: or, despised}
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:18-22 KJV)

Hell in this passage is Hades. Because Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses.

 

[ATP]

We see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV

- ATP

Hell in this passage is Hades. Because Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses.

Curious of why the author chose to use the word Hades in Luke 16. :wacko:
Lake of Fire Location
http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm

Dead Sea

From http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm....

Sixthly, the lake cannot be Gehenna (another name of “hell” in the King James Version). The area of Gehenna (sometimes called Tophet) is a valley located on the southern edges of Jerusalem. In no way can the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) be considered “a lake.” It is also not the “bottomless pit” (Greek: abyss) because that is a pit in the earth with a door that a key can open (Revelation 9:1–2). Admittedly, the description of the abyss is figurative, but it is not suitable to connect a door and key with an entrance to “a lake.”

The Valley of Hinnom commenced at Jerusalem and journeyed eastwards at a precipitous rate until it emptied into the northern parts of the Dead Sea. The watercourse is know to this very day as the Wady en-Nar (Arabic: The Streambed of Fire). This Valley of Hinnom (that is, the Gehenna mentioned by Christ) was about fifteen miles long. It plummeted into the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire). This means that Gehenna and the Lake of the Fire were typically connected.

What is so striking is the contrast: A beautiful and well watered land on the west side with the crests of the Holy Land, and then (so quickly and abruptly) the thorough desolation of the “Land of the Scapegoat”—the region traversed by Gehenna (the Streambed of Fire), the location of the abyss (bottomless pit), and then the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire).

In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion"

The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal.

Question: Why did Jesus use the same word to describe punishment and life?
Matt 25:46 - Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” house has to be the same size as a “small” ring because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word.

Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.)


Also, John tells us that the lake will be in existence and active with fire prior to the Millennium (Revelation 19:20). This means it will be fully in evidence before the second advent of Christ to this earth.

 

[Butch5]

We see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV

- ATP


Curious of why the author chose to use the word Hades in Luke 16. :wacko:

Lake of Fire Location
http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm

Dead Sea

From http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm....

Sixthly, the lake cannot be Gehenna (another name of “hell” in the King James Version). The area of Gehenna (sometimes called Tophet) is a valley located on the southern edges of Jerusalem. In no way can the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) be considered “a lake.” It is also not the “bottomless pit” (Greek: abyss) because that is a pit in the earth with a door that a key can open (Revelation 9:1–2). Admittedly, the description of the abyss is figurative, but it is not suitable to connect a door and key with an entrance to “a lake.”

The Valley of Hinnom commenced at Jerusalem and journeyed eastwards at a precipitous rate until it emptied into the northern parts of the Dead Sea. The watercourse is know to this very day as the Wady en-Nar (Arabic: The Streambed of Fire). This Valley of Hinnom (that is, the Gehenna mentioned by Christ) was about fifteen miles long. It plummeted into the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire). This means that Gehenna and the Lake of the Fire were typically connected.

What is so striking is the contrast: A beautiful and well watered land on the west side with the crests of the Holy Land, and then (so quickly and abruptly) the thorough desolation of the “Land of the Scapegoat”—the region traversed by Gehenna (the Streambed of Fire), the location of the abyss (bottomless pit), and then the Dead Sea (the Lake of the Fire).



Question: Why did Jesus use the same word to describe punishment and life?

Matt 25:46 - Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” house has to be the same size as a “small” ring because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word.

Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.)


Also, John tells us that the lake will be in existence and active with fire prior to the Millennium (Revelation 19:20). This means it will be fully in evidence before the second advent of Christ to this earth.

Hi ATP,

Actually, I don't think Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man has anything to do with an afterlife. I believe it is a parable about the demise of the priesthood.

I think the reason Jesus used "aionios" of both the punishment and the life of believers was to make a contrast between the two.

 

[ATP]

I think the reason Jesus used "aionios" of both the punishment and the life of believers was to make a contrast between the two.

Contrast, what do you mean. How?

 

[Butch5]

Contrast, what do you mean. How?

Life and death. I think He's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see.

 

[logabe]

Contrast, what do you mean. How?

Jesus used aionios to give you specifics on what would happen in the next Age, which is, the "Tabernacle
Age", where the overcomers will be living in immortality amongst people who are still mortal. Eternal is
timeless, so Jesus was letting us know it wasn't eternity.

Matthew 25:46 is also man's mistranslation. The word is aionios which Jesus was telling us that the
overcomers will live in the next age in immortality, but the evil doers will go into aionios punishment, but
the overcomers into aionios life, not eternal life where there is no time, but "life in the ages to come",
which has time.

What will happen to the evil doers? They will perish to the Age of Tabernacles, and will be raised in the
2nd resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6), where they will be judged according to their works. What ever sentence
they receive after being judged will be paid for in that Age or if that person has many sins, it might take
more ages to pay for his/her sins. In other words, the Law says an eye for an eye, which means if a person
has murdered several people, he could spend a very long time in correction.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

Jesus used aionios to give you specifics on what would happen in the next Age, which is, the "Tabernacle
Age", where the overcomers will be living in immortality amongst people who are still mortal. Eternal is
timeless, so Jesus was letting us know it wasn't eternity.

Matthew 25:46 is also man's mistranslation. The word is aionios which Jesus was telling us that the
overcomers will live in the next age in immortality, but the evil doers will go into aionios punishment, but
the overcomers into aionios life, not eternal life where there is no time, but "life in the ages to come",
which has time.

What will happen to the evil doers? They will perish to the Age of Tabernacles, and will be raised in the
2nd resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6), where they will be judged according to their works. What ever sentence
they receive after being judged will be paid for in that Age or if that person has many sins, it might take
more ages to pay for his/her sins. In other words, the Law says an eye for an eye, which means if a person
has murdered several people, he could spend a very long time in correction.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

What is the Age of Tabernacles, and does it exist when the Lake of Fire is burning in Rev 20:10-15?

 

[logabe]

What is the Age of Tabernacles, and does it exist when the Lake of Fire is burning in Rev 20:10-15?

Good questions... Zechariah 14:16 says,

14 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations
that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship
the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

The Age of Tabernacles is the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ on this earth. It consist of the people
of the most high receiving the Kingdom of God and possessing it by implementing God's Divine Laws to
teach them to all nations. The Feast of Booths or (Tabernacles) at a personal level, means your body will
be changed by putting on immortality for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the rest of humanity in the
Ages to come.

The first Age after this miraculous change is called the "Tabernacles Age", where the Overcomers will be
ordained to go forth and complete the command of Jesus Christ, which is, to go into all the world and preach
the gospel to every creature. The difference is, in that Age, God will give us the power to accomplish His
desires for His Creation. We have to understand that it is just the beginning of "the restoration of all things".

Acts 3:21 says,

21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration
of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy
prophets from ancient time.

This is a period where God will begin to gather the ones He died for. In this Age of Grace, God has been calling out
a people for His name sake, but in the Tabernacles Age He will be calling out heathen nations until all the earth will
be filled with the Spirit of God as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14 says,

14 “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

Paul speaks of this in Romans 8, but most Christians don't connect the dots, because they have been taught that they
will be raptured from the earth while the rest of the creation goes to hell. We can believe that if we want to, but if we
are serious about the high calling in Christ Jesus, He will begin to give us the revelation of His plans. Romans 8:19 says,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing
of the sons of God.

The revealing of the Sons of God is when we, as Overcomers, receive immortality when the fullness of the Feast of
Tabernacles is upon us. Watch what Paul says in 23rd verse,

23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the
Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our
adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

My first question for believers is, are we waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, which is, the redemption of our
bodies. What is that? Our spirit has been redeemed and our soul is in the process, but our bodies still have death in
them, which causes weakness in our walk with God. But, thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ, we have hope that
one day this old body will be changed into His glorious body, when the fullness of the Feast of Tabernacles has been
completed. Verse 21 says,

21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption
into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

The purpose of the Sons of God being manifested is to set free your family that has died without confessing Jesus as
their savior. Do you have anybody that has died because they overdosed on heroin? I got good news for you! In the
Ages that are to come God will raise your mother, father, brother, sister, cousin, and whoever else that didn't apply
themselves to the blood of Jesus, and raise them up and love them with unconditional love that will in turn cause them
to repent. Isn't that a wonderful plan?

ATP, I hope you understand Tabernacles now so you can begin to get excited about God saving your family members
that might have died without Him.

Your question about the Lake of Fire burning during the Tabernacles Age would be no, but the Lake of Fire is actually
just another long period of time that is called the second death Rev. 20:6, 14. In other words, the first death is what we
are living under at the moment. What is it? Paul said, the wages of sin is death, which is, what we have been living under
six thousand years, but the second death will begin after the Great White Throne Judgment, which will last for a very long
time during the restoration of all things. If you have any questions about the second death, just shoot me a post and I will
try to explain it.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

ATP, I hope you understand Tabernacles now so you can begin to get excited about God saving your family members
that might have died without Him.

Your post was good up until here. If you think nonbelievers get a second chance at salvation after they die, then you're going to be disappointed.

 

[logabe]

Your post was good up until here. If you think nonbelievers get a second chance at salvation after they die, then you're going to be disappointed.

What do you suppose Paul was speaking of when he said "the saints shall judge the
world", in 1st Corth. 6:2? When will they judge the world?

We will judge the world when we receive immortality after the second death has been
established. The six thousand years of the 1st death will end and everyone that didn't
apply the blood of Jesus to their sins will have to endure a long correction in the Lake
of Fire, which is, "the second death". Ultimately, the plan is to bring the heathen to a
place of repentance so they can experience the grace and mercy of the Almighty.

ATP... have you ever had a second chance?

Ps. 22:27 says,

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

When will that happen? It will happen when God completes the restoration of all
things.

Ps. 2:8 says,

8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

Yes Lord, but the heathen are so rebellious and they just want listen. Also, they hate
you and your ways, so how can you possibly give them as our inheritance? Verse 9
says,

9 ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

Oh, I get it. You will break their hearts with the rod of correction through your words
that will be taught during the 2nd death. Rev. 19:15 says,

15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it
He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them
with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the
fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

So His weapon is a sharp sword that comes out of His mouth. Heb. 4:12 says that His
Word is a two edged sword and He will use His Word to break in pieces the unbeliever.

Some will come in this age, but the majority will be corrected in the Lake of Fire. We can
accept the plan of God or we can establish our own plan, but we will be very disappointed
when God begins to set up His Kingdom and we are not a part of it.

What a God! What a plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

ATP... have you ever had a second chance?

There is no second chance for salvation after you die. This life is all you get. Choose it wisely. Rom 10:9-10.