Do you know what it means to be reciprocal?ATP said:
Our spirit is our spirit and is what distinguishes us from all OTHER forms of life. Apparently you confuse God's breathing life into us with our breathing.
No wonder you're confused.
12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment
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Our spirit is our spirit and is what distinguishes us from all OTHER forms of life. Apparently you confuse God's breathing life into us with our breathing.
No wonder you're confused.
Ok, so you agree that our spirit is God's breath breathed into us. Good.StanJ said:
Why would you think "breath" can walk and talk? Doesn't sleep mean just that.
1 Thess 4:14 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
Come on ATP if you're going to prevaricate about what I say even though it is IN writing, we won't have any fruitful discussion.ATP said:
I said God breathes LIFE into us as He did with all life. Our spirits are part of the way God created us, IN His image, tripartite beings as God is. God did not create animals, plants or sea creatures in His image. ONLY man.
Fallen asleep is the body, not the spirit. Resurrection is the body waking up and being reunited with their spirit.
I agree Stan.StanJ said:
StanJ said:
But why would "death" be any different in the NT then the OT.StanJ said:
Job 10:18-22 NIV “Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. 19If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave! 20Are not my few days almost over? Turn away from me so I can have a moment’s joy 21before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and utter darkness, 22to the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness.”
Job 14:10-15 NIV But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. 11As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, 12so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep. 13“If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! 14If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. 15You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.
Psa 6:4-5 NIV Turn, Lord, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?
Psa 30:9 NIV "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Psa 88:9-12 NIV my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, Lord, every day; I spread out my hands to you. 10Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you? 11Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ? 12Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
Isa 38:18 NIV For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness
- ATP
The issue is Hebrew vs Greek, but in neither language does it connote non-existence.ATP said:
When the Bible refers to death it is ONLY in a physical sense, either actually or effectually. The spirit of man NEVER ceases to exist, but many will only exist eternally, in non-corporeal form, because they never received Eternal Life as a result of having Jesus as their saviour.
I'm not saying it ceases to exist. What I'm saying is that it sleeps in Jesus. There is a huge difference there. The evidence in scripture is overwhelming.StanJ said:
I'd hardly say overwhelming, unless you think all the verses you quoted refer to our spirits, which they don't. Sleep is what the Jews referred to when addressing the physical death of the body. The NT clarifies this to mean the body, NOT THE spirit/soul. If you see the context of Paul's instruction, it is about the resurrection, which is the body being reanimated, being made incorruptible and being joined with their souls just prior to meeting Jesus in the air at the rapture. As Paul was a Jew/Pharisee, he clearly depicted Jewish thought in his description.ATP said:
Where is your scripture. All I hear are opinions.StanJ said:
In John 3:8 pneuma is used both for wind and spirit.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Are you saying our "wind" is walking around the third heaven laughing and giggling?
Already gave it. Can't help it if you ignore or choose to not address it.ATP said:
You seem to have this issue about taking words OUT of the contexts they are being used in. You may want to bone up on proper Hermeneutics.
Spirits don't walk as we understand it and not having been in paradise yet I don't know what it is really like, but it is clearly a place of existence in the spiritual realm, that allows communication with each other.
Whatever you say Stan. Even though the third heaven cannot contain us and nobody has gone there, we are still conscious wind miraculously living there.StanJ said:
1 Kings 8:27 NIV "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
John 3:13 NIV No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Again that is what you're asserting. Where is that stated in the Bible About the 3rd. Heaven. No doubt God exists in heaven, but it is NOT the destination of believers. Our promise as Christians, is Eternal Life on the New Earth.ATP said:Whatever you say Stan. Even though the third heaven cannot contain us and nobody has gone there, we are still conscious wind miraculously living there.
1 Kings 8:27 NIV "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
John 3:13 NIV No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Rev 21:1-3
After all that I've posted, you're still denying a third heaven?StanJ said:
Correct, it is not the destination of believers. So you agree with me. That's good.StanJ said:
Actually the word is begotten again not born again. What's the difference? We haven't beenATP said:
born yet, but we have been impregnated by the incorruptible word of God, which gives us
the mystery that has been hidden for generations, but has been made known to us in this Age,
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col. 1:26-27). We will actually be born when the
First Resurrection comes and we put on immortality.
Lazarus represents the whole human race that died waiting on the Messiah to come and save
them, but He didn't come until the fourth day and he stinks (John 11:39). In other words, it's
to late to raise him because he is rotten to the core. But God's plan was to come on the fourth
day or the fourth thousandth year. A day with the Lord is as a thousand years, so Jesus came
on the fourth day to raise Lazarus or to bring reconciliation to all mankind.
Here's my point. We don't yet see the magnitude of the work that was done @ the cross, because
we are looking @ Jesus by faith and most people can't accept the cross because it is by faith.
But when the G.W.T. comes, all will see Him and believe, which will bring about the bowing &
confessing that Isa. and Paul was talking about in Rom. 14:11-12.
Oh really... final separation from God. So wonder where that came from? Your definition for the
second death is "the final separation of sinners from God". My question is, when will that take
place, before or after everyone bows and confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
If you do not understand what being born again implies, then I will pray for you logabe.logabe said:
John 3:11 NIV Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
Thanks...ATP said:
Being begotten of God simply means, God will cause you to obey Him. Deut. 30:6 says,
6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and
the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with
all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
So that you may become immortal.
God will cause our hearts to change, so we can believe His Truth and not the lies of the flesh.
As Peter said in an earlier post, that we are begotten again of the incorruptible seed or word
of God (1st Peter 1:23).
What does that mean?
It means God will give us the ability to understand His Word by the Spirit, because of the
marvelous act that Jesus performed @ the cross.
As a person hears the incorruptible word of God they respond through the gift of faith that God
has given them. My point is, most people haven't responded in this age, but the day is coming
when all will give an account of the way they have lived their life.
The ones that have responded can enjoy the Spirit and the Word that God has provided to give
us the understanding of His purpose and His plan, so we can tell others that might not have the
ability to comprehend the New Covenant. The New Covenant is about having the ability to see
the scriptures by the Spirit. God calls it, "writing the Law upon our hearts", so we can know His
character and His nature, which will keep us on that narrow path.
In the mean time... we are to be washed by that same word daily, so we can be effective in the
Kingdom today, knowing that the best is yet to come in the next Age of Tabernacles, where we
will actually put on an incorruptible body (1st Cor. 15:52-53).
WOW!
Then we can say, we are born again, instead of saying begotten of God. What's the difference?
It means, we will actually be righteous and not in this state of being imputed righteous, which is,
calling what is not as though it is (Rom. 4:17).
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
Good afternoon to you. When you meet God at the Great White Throne and you are not born again, your destination is the lake of fire. You must be born again and accept Christ before you die on this earth.logabe said:
John 3:7 NIV You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
Rev 20:15 NIV Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
- ATP
First Stan, one can never cease to exist so long as his name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and so long as he is in God's memory. However, ONLY God is immortal. We are not immortal...neither body nor spirit. In Eden the serpent called God a liar when he said "ye shall not surely die". When God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit, He didn't mean just physically. When God place the angel to guard the tree of life this was not a symbolic action. This was a safeguard against the security of the universe. There is not, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be an immortal sinner. Sinners die. Period. ONLY the righteous in Christ have eternal life.StanJ said:
At creation God made man from the dust of the ground. There was no life in that dust until God breathed into him the spirit of life. When the spirit departs at death, the body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God. Life ceases. It is only in the union of spirit and body that life came about. There was no life or personality in the spirit before its union with the body, unless you are advocating pre-existence which would then lead to reincarnation and our discussion would take on a whole new paradigm.
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