[SIZE=14pt]That may be true to some extent, however, that doesn’t mean one can just assume that because someone isn’t a scholar any contradiction they see is invalid.[/SIZE]JimParker said:[SIZE=14pt]That may be true to some extent, however, that doesn’t mean one can just assume that because someone isn’t a scholar any contradiction they see is invalid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That is true. However, the methodology used in identifying the alleged contradiction might be invalid due to lack of training. And that is what I have addressed and attempted to explain the error in the method.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]To no avail, unfortunately.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Every time someone says something you disagree with you claim they’re not a scholar.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That is not accurate. I have asked on several occasions why I should accept the conclusion of an untrained person over that of an expert in the field like Moody, Spurgeon, Luther, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]No one has answered that question.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Do you extensively research every person you read to make sure they are a qualified scholar in the particular area in which you are studying?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Do you think I need to do that for people like [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Moody, Spurgeon, Luther, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, etc. or can I safely assume that they are experts?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]If the Bible can only be understood by the Scholarly then there isn’t much hope for anyone else.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I never said that was the case. I have pointed out that the “proofs” that have been offered are seriously inadequate due to lack of training.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]How then can anyone other than the Scholars be saved? If everyone else is ignorant then how can they be saved? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Again, I never suggested anything like that.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]there’s nothing like that in the Scriptures. The sinners prayer isn’t in the Scriptures.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]So what is your point?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There are those who have degrees in both Arminian and Reformed theology and these systems teach opposing doctrines from the same Scriptures.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I have encountered neither of those gentlemen in any forum. We’re not talking about them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I have encountered quite a few people with no where near the education of either Calvin or Arminius, proclaiming totally crackpot notions and having no clue as to what their talking about or how to “rightfully divide the scripture.” But that doesn’t stop them from telling everyone else that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I have repeatedly asked why I should accept some crackpot opinion about “soul sleep” and similar nonsense that is contrary to everything that had been taught for almost two thousand years. No one ever answers that question. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]You seem to be saying that a theological education is of no advantage in understanding scripture. If that is your point, your are wrong. It is a great advantage. It isn’t necessary for salvation but it is an extremely valuable tool in understanding scripture and a good defense against all the “winds of doctrine” with which untrained people are so easily enchanted. (Look how wealthy televangelists can get preaching ear-tickling tripe!)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I’m fed up with ignorant people wanting to straighten me out on how Jesus is Michael the Archangel and similar nonsense. I’ll respond to such a person who poste to me once or twice and then, if I can’t get through to them, I’ll follow Paul’s advice and have nothing to do with such divisive people. ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Tit 3:10http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Tit&c=3&v=10&t=NIV#s=1132010[/SIZE])
[SIZE=14pt]I have no need to accept the babbling of some ignoramus as being of equivalent authority to the teaching of the Cappadocians or Athanasius or Gregory Palamas or Seraphim of Sarov etc. That notion is pure rubbish. Just as I am not capable of discussing quantum mechanics with a physicist, not everyone I encounter is qualified to discuss theology with me. And there are many, many theologians that I do not discuss anything with; I just shut up, listen attentively, and take notes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Everyone has the right to speak his mind. Some would do well to remain silent.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Pro 17:28 [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.[/SIZE]
That is true. However, the methodology used in identifying the alleged contradiction might be invalid due to lack of training. And that is what I have addressed and attempted to explain the error in the method.To no avail, unfortunately.
[SIZE=14pt]Yes, it “Might” be invalid, however, I haven’t seen where you’ve looked at that. It seems to me that you’ve just dismissed anyone who doesn’t hold a degree in theology as ignorant. Have you questioned me as to my methodology? I don’t recall you doing so.[/SIZE]
That is not accurate. I have asked on several occasions why I should accept the conclusion of an untrained person over that of an expert in the field like Moody, Spurgeon, Luther, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.No one has answered that question.
[SIZE=14pt]Have you established these as experts? Have you explained why anyone should accept the words of these men over anyone else? Personally, I don’t believe that Luther was scholar. Neither do I believe that Spurgeon had a good grasp of the Scriptures. Luther followed Augustinianism and Spurgeon later in life headed that way also. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It seems to me that you’ve simply accepted these men as experts and expect everyone else to because you have.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I guess that answered my question above. My answer is yes. I think if you’re going to hold everyone else to that standard these men should be too. [/SIZE]Do you think I need to do that for people like Moody, Spurgeon, Luther, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, etc. or can I safely assume that they are experts?
[SIZE=14pt]Again, why should anyone accept the words of these men simply because of their name?[/SIZE]
I never said that was the case. I have pointed out that the “proofs” that have been offered are seriously inadequate due to lack of training. Again, I never suggested anything like that.
[SIZE=14pt]No, you didn’t suggest that Jim, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion of what I’m hearing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]My point is, you’re telling us that we should listen to those who have degrees. You have a masters in Theology and yet you’re telling us something that is not found in the Bible. If you, having a degree, are telling us something that is not in the Bible why shouldn’t we question others, who have a degree, who tell us things that aren’t in the Bible?[/SIZE]So what is your point?
[SIZE=14pt]When Jesus brought the Gospel He could have gone to the Temple and gotten 12 scribes (scholars) to make His disciples, yet He didn’t . Instead He found 12 everyday men who He could train to do things His way. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]We can look at church history and see what the “Scholars” have done. We can look at the Catholic church who had almost sole authority of the Scriptures in the west for about a thousand years and see what those “Scholars” did with the word. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I’m not against education, I think all Christians should study the background and history of the Bible. I also agree that Biblical illiteracy runs amuck in the church. However, I don’t agree that just because someone lacks a few letters after their name they’re incompetent.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]No, we’re not talking about them. However, they make my point. Both sides have men who have degrees in their theology. The two systems teach opposing doctrines from the same Scriptures. The law of noncotradiction states that opposing statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. Thus, the Scriptures cannot prove both systems as true. That means that one side has men who have degrees and those men are in error.[/SIZE]I have encountered neither of those gentlemen in any forum. We’re not talking about them.
[SIZE=14pt]So, if we are to listen to those who have degrees, let me ask. Do we listen to the men who have degrees who tell us that we can lose salvation or do we listen to the men with degrees who tell us we can’t lose salvation?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I have too. However, that doesn’t mean everyone I’ve encountered is that way.[/SIZE]I have encountered quite a few people with no where near the education of either Calvin or Arminius, proclaiming totally crackpot notions and having no clue as to what their talking about or how to “rightfully divide the scripture.” But that doesn’t stop them from telling everyone else that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
[SIZE=14pt]What has been taught for two thousand years should only be believed if it aligns with Scripture. Purgatory has been taught for about 1500 years do you believe that?[/SIZE]I have repeatedly asked why I should accept some crackpot opinion about “soul sleep” and similar nonsense that is contrary to everything that had been taught for almost two thousand years. No one ever answers that question.
[SIZE=14pt]Have studied the early church and early church history? I ask because you made the statement about what has been believed for 2000 years. Quite a bit of what is considered orthodoxy today was not believed in the beginning and there are doctrines in the church today that would have been called heresy in the beginning. Just because something has been believed for a long time doesn’t necessitate that it is true. Take the Penal model of the atonement. It’s a doctrine that is almost universally accepted in Western Christianity today yet only has been around in its present form since the Reformation and in its prior form as the “Satisfaction” theory since around 1100 AD. However, it was not in the church prior to that. The Satisfaction/Penal model has been round for about a thousand years, however, it’s not what was taught by Jesus and the apostles. Not only that but when held up to the Scriptures and logic it fail miserably. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]So going back to those with a degree, why should I listen to some whose belief system doesn’t make sense?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Not at all. I think a theological education is of great advantage. However, it’s only as good as its source. Personally I think having a PHD in an evolutionary field is useless simply because I don’t believe in evolution. If evolution is wrong then what good is the PHD? It’s just like I said with Reformed and Arminian theologies. One of them has to be wrong, what does that say about the degree in that theology? That’s not to say everything in either theology is wrong. However, since doctrines build on one another in theological systems it does leave the entire theology suspect.[/SIZE]You seem to be saying that a theological education is of no advantage in understanding scripture. If that is your point, your are wrong. It is a great advantage. It isn’t necessary for salvation but it is an extremely valuable tool in understanding scripture and a good defense against all the “winds of doctrine” with which untrained people are so easily enchanted. (Look how wealthy televangelists can get preaching ear-tickling tripe!)
[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Tit 3:10http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Tit&c=3&v=10&t=NIV#s=1132010http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Tit&c=3&v=10&t=NIV#s=1132010[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt])[/SIZE]I’m fed up with ignorant people wanting to straighten me out on how Jesus is Michael the Archangel and similar nonsense. I’ll respond to such a person who poste to me once or twice and then, if I can’t get through to them, I’ll follow Paul’s advice and have nothing to do with such divisive people. (
[SIZE=14pt]Again, you’re dismissing someone simply because they don’t have letters after their name. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I’ll bet that you are aware of the difference between intelligence and education. Just because someone does not have degrees in a certain area doesn’t mean they can’t teach you something. It seems to me that you are hurting yourself by rejecting someone simple because they don’t have letters after their name.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Everyone has the right to speak his mind. Some would do well to remain silent.[/SIZE]I have no need to accept the babbling of some ignoramus as being of equivalent authority to the teaching of the Cappadocians or Athanasius or Gregory Palamas or Seraphim of Sarov etc. That notion is pure rubbish. Just as I am not capable of discussing quantum mechanics with a physicist, not everyone I encounter is qualified to discuss theology with me. And there are many, many theologians that I do not discuss anything with; I just shut up, listen attentively, and take notes.
[SIZE=14pt]Pro 17:28http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Pro 17.28 [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Even fools are thought wise[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Again, it seems you’ve elevated certain ones to a particular status simply based on name. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It’s a shame you dismiss others so easily. Since you have a masters you probably could educate us and if you listened you could learn a thing or two. I can tell you one thing, my positions are logically sound.[/SIZE]