1John 3:5-6

[jerseygirl]

Philippians 3

12 I do not say that I have received this or have already become perfect. But I keep going on to make that life my own as Christ Jesus made me His own. 13 No, Christian brothers, I do not have that life yet. But I do one thing. I forget everything that is behind me and look forward to that which is ahead of me.

 

[Ruth]

(Note: I have not read all replies, sorry if I have repeated something all ready stated)

If we look at the the church's in Revelation we read that Jesus is very disappointed about the behavior of the some of the BELIEVERS in these church's.

They are in sin, but Jesus never tells them they are not His children, but warns them they have dirtied the clean garments Jesus gave them once they believed.

They must repent, and Jesus will once again clean their garments, but if they do not repent Jesus makes a very scary statement, I WILL ERASE YOUR NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE.

Rev. 3

Jesus: "I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive—but you are dead.

Wake up!

Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the REQUIREMENTS of my God. Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don’t wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.

4 “Yet there are some in the church in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.

5 All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never ERASE their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

...........

Jesus clearly tells this church there can come a time where you love your sin more than God, and if you do not heed the warnings from the Holy Spirit Jesus will NOT announce before the Father as His, your name has been ERASED.

WILFUL UNREPENTED SIN WILL SEND YOU SO HELL

 

[Axehead]

@Axehead; @justaname...my commendations to you both for clear perceptive and mature explanations of your perspectives on this thorny topic. Though you both may on some points dsagree with one another, yet you have brought to the conversation much depth and understanding. @Haz, I recognize your perspective and writing style as that of a contributor I conversed with on many occasions some time ago on another forum, only you wrote then under another moniker. You haven't changed much your stance...I agree with Axehead that spiritualizing sin every time it is mentioned in the NT is inappropriate. I would add that those who advocate obedience to God's moral commandments are not all necessarily advocating such as a means by which one would attain salvation or in order to be justified. In all my previous conversations with you, and it appears in this current conversation, you continue to deny even the possibility of obedience being a necessary and essential result of our having been justified. You are correct in one thing...our obedience is not a measure of the righteousness we have in Christ...the eternal Father measures our righteousness according to the righteousness of Christ, not on our performance.

Hi Brakelite,

You may be thinking of haz27 or Barny. Those are names that haz uses on other sites as he propagates his version of the scriptures.

All I can say haz is that I do not agree with your exegesis of the Word of God. You are reading into the word of God (eisegesis) your own meanings and we will just continue to go around and around and around. I have never even heard your version of the scriptures from anyone in the Institutional church system or outside of the system (house churches). There is no teaching like yours that exists down through the centuries that is even known about or is in print.

Surely, there are others that witness to your interpretations, but no, there are none that I can find and apparently no one else knows of any such teaching, either. And I have read almost all of your posts on all the other sites where you have tried to convince others of your isolated stand.

Axehead

 

[ATP]

Nor is John saying that sinless perfection must be achieved, and that those who fail to do so lose their salvation. Such a notion is foreign to John’s argument and to all of Scripture.

Correct. Wonderful OP by the way.

All sins are covered - Col 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Neither the present nor the future - Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

- ATP

 

[Axehead]

What Haz has done is redefine in a very narrow way, what sin is and then build a theology around it. He says simply, that sin is unbelief and that all physical "sins" are "without the body" and therefore do not have any negative effect upon one, eternally speaking.

1Co_6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

He spiritualizes all sin so that the first mention of "fornication" in the above verse is actually "spiritual" fornication but the inconsistency is that the second mention of fornication is physical but he says "it doesn't matter" since it is "without the body".

Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, means that it does not necessarily affect his physical body, although it does affect his soul, but fornication can have an immediate effect on his body, producing feebleness, weakness and disease. All sin destroys and all sin affects the Body of Christ. A man who is in sin is not functioning properly within the Body of Christ or walking properly before the Lord.

The Scriptures says that "all unrighteousness is sin", so it would behoove us to find out what unrighteousness is.

1Jn_5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Also, Haz's theology discounts the effect of sin (no, sin is not just "unbelief), whether it is in the body or in the spirit. All sin will harden one's heart and cause one to shrink back from Jesus Christ. A theology that says, the only sin that affects a Christian is unbelief and all other behaviors have no affect on a believer because the scriptures say "A Christian cannot sin" is simply a deception that will cause one to "fall into the ditch".

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We know that when one is walking in the Spirit, he will not be sinning and we are encouraged and admonished to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. This does not mean regardless of your actions and behavior, you are not sinning un

In conclusion, I have to say that Haz is isolating scriptures and then twisting the isolated scriptures to form a dangerous theology.

If you want to contemplate what "unrighteousness" is, just think this: Everything that is not of Christ is unrighteousness, ("Jesus Christ, the Righteous") or sin. Any selfish, self-serving behavior is unrighteousness. The scriptures say to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man" and to "flee youthful lusts" and not to engage in your "former conversation" (former behaviors and motives).

Your "will" at odds and not in harmony with God's will in your daily walk is unrighteousness. "Not my will but thy will be done".

Consider these two passages from James:

James_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (did not say, when unbelief is conceived. It was very specific).

James speaking to the Church and especially behavior amongst the "brethren".

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

In Christ,
Axehead

 

[haz]

What Haz has done is redefine in a very narrow way, what sin is and then build a theology around it. He says simply, that sin is unbelief and that all physical "sins" are "without the body" and therefore do not have any negative effect upon one, eternally speaking.

1Co_6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

He spiritualizes all sin so that the first mention of "fornication" in the above verse is actually "spiritual" fornication but the inconsistency is that the second mention of fornication is physical but he says "it doesn't matter" since it is "without the body".

In Christ,
Axehead

Hi Axehead,

I didn't realize you joined 3 of the same forums as I did. If your visiting any others the name I settled on is "haz". The names "Barny" and Haz27" were names from my early forays into forums.

BTW, what physical fornication do you refer to?

Also, Haz's theology discounts the effect of sin (no, sin is not just "unbelief), whether it is in the body or in the spirit. All sin will harden one's heart and cause one to shrink back from Jesus Christ. A theology that says, the only sin that affects a Christian is unbelief and all other behaviors have no affect on a believer because the scriptures say "A Christian cannot sin" is simply a deception that will cause one to "fall into the ditch".

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We know that when one is walking in the Spirit, he will not be sinning and we are encouraged and admonished to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. This does not mean regardless of your actions and behavior, you are not sinning

1John 3:6-9 tells us that Christians "cannot sin", and that those who do sin are "of the devil".
1Pet 4:1 tells us that Christians have "ceased from sin".

And as I've shown in scripture, this is all referring to our position in Christ, as believers. I've never said that Christians are perfect in physical behavior. Instead what I've shown from scripture is that Christians cannot be charged with sin, Rom 8:33.

But you have not given any alternative explanation of these clear statements from scripture. You just discount them as not really meaning what they say and conclude that these scriptures are in effect " simply a deception that will cause one to "fall into the ditch".

If you don't understand these scriptures then why be so outspoken yet offer no relevant alternative?

Consider these two passages from James:

James_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (did not say, when unbelief is conceived. It was very specific).

James speaking to the Church and especially behavior amongst the "brethren".

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

In Christ,
Axehead

Scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
If you read it in physical terms then you will make the same mistake as Nicodemus who thought "born-again"meant to re-enter his mother's womb.

James 1:15 "Lust".
You are thinking in physical terms, perhaps lusting after a physical woman I guess.

But scripture is spiritually discerned. It's like a parable.
So the lust in James 1:15 is unbelief. For example lusting after Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. And we both know that there are many scriptures warnings us not to turn back to the law.

So if somebody is into spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar, then they sin against their own body (Christ, 1Cor 6:18).

We see this same warning in James 4.
Note James 4:4 addresses (spiritual) adulterers (into sexual immorality with Hagar).
James 4:12 confirms how it's addressing legalists into sexual immorality with Hagar.

And James 4:7,8 is a salvation call to these unbelievers/SINNERS.

All I can say haz is that I do not agree with your exegesis of the Word of God. You are reading into the word of God (eisegesis) your own meanings and we will just continue to go around and around and around. I have never even heard your version of the scriptures from anyone in the Institutional church system or outside of the system (house churches). There is no teaching like yours that exists down through the centuries that is even known about or is in print.

Surely, there are others that witness to your interpretations, but no, there are none that I can find and apparently no one else knows of any such teaching, either. And I have read almost all of your posts on all the other sites where you have tried to convince others of your isolated stand.

Axehead

If you come to Brisbane Australia I can introduce to some friends who share the same understanding.

Also I've met a number of others on various other forums who also share very similar understandings of the scriptures.

One of them in USA plan to publish a book showing from scripture why it says that Christians cannot sin.
This same guy also referred me to a church in USA that also preaches the same, that Christians cannot sin

Can I suggest that rather than trying to belittle what I've shared from scripture, that you actually offer a plausible alternative backed up by scripture.

Scripture confirms scripture so if you can offer an alternative explanation, based on scripture, to explain away the scriptures that say Christians cannot sin, then that would do far better than just trying to belittle another.

 

[Axehead]

Haz,

Whatever myself or anyone else has said you call it something different. I say that your theology is dangerous, and you call it belittling. I show scripture that confirms scripture and you take the stance that only your understanding of the scripture is correct. Many besides myself, have shown scriptures where Paul, Peter and James are talking about Christians sinning and you call it something different. It is as if you and your folks in Brisbane have some secret (gnostic) knowledge that no one else has. Is it only Brisbane and only one person in the USA? Are there not others? And you say that someone is coming out with a book on it, meaning (after 2,000 years) there are no current writings on this subject. Practical theology and experience go together. The scriptures also confirm our practical experience in everyday life (not the other way around). Please let us all know about this book that is coming out as I would like to read it.

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

I didn't realize you joined 3 of the same forums as I did. If your visiting any others the name I settled on is "haz". The names "Barny" and Haz27" were names from my early forays into forums.

BTW, what physical fornication do you refer to?

Haz, no reason to join the multitudes of forums online that you are posting to in order to read your same posts. You must have forgotten about Barny and Haz27 because they are word for word what you are posting here. Either that or some other friends are floating "trial balloons", for the person who is supposed to be writing a book on these beliefs.


1John 3:6-9 tells us that Christians "cannot sin", and that those who do sin are "of the devil".
1Pet 4:1 tells us that Christians have "ceased from sin".

Haz, can a Christian "walk after the flesh"? If not, why are we admonished not to walk after the flesh?
Rom_8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Are we to mortify the deeds of the body? According to your theology, why are we even told to mortify the deeds of the body?
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

And as I've shown in scripture, this is all referring to our position in Christ, as believers. I've never said that Christians are perfect in physical behavior. Instead what I've shown from scripture is that Christians cannot be charged with sin, Rom 8:33.

That is not what Romans 8:33 is talking about. We are not talking about accusing one another, we are talking about whether Christians can sin or not.

But you have not given any alternative explanation of these clear statements from scripture. You just discount them as not really meaning what they say and conclude that these scriptures are in effect " simply a deception that will cause one to "fall into the ditch".

If you don't understand these scriptures then why be so outspoken yet offer no relevant alternative?

Actually, you are the one that is outspoken as you have left a trail all over the web. I am surprised at your outspokenness.



Scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
If you read it in physical terms then you will make the same mistake as Nicodemus who thought "born-again"meant to re-enter his mother's womb.

Where do you draw the line what is physical and what is spiritual or is everything in spiritual terms. Is the Bible actually talking about hair in the following verses or is there some hidden meaning behind the terms?

Exo_26:7 And thou shalt make curtains of goats' hair to be a covering upon the tabernacle: eleven curtains shalt thou make.
1Co_11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

James 1:15 "Lust".
You are thinking in physical terms, perhaps lusting after a physical woman I guess.

Actually, James is not defining whether lust here is physical or spiritual. Is he talking about lusting after power, money, sex or is he talking about lusting after spiritual power and control over people. Maybe he is talking about lusting after spiritual preeminence as was the case of Diotrephes in 3 John, but regardless he is just saying LUST. Basically, all lust, when conceived brings forth death. Therefore it falls under "All unrighteousness is sin". But, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, that if we sin, He is faithful to forgive us of our sins. Is this a license for sin? No way. The Scriptures deal with that, too.

But scripture is spiritually discerned. It's like a parable.
So the lust in James 1:15 is unbelief. For example lusting after Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. And we both know that there are many scriptures warnings us not to turn back to the law.

Is unbelief singular or plural? "ALL unrighteousness" is plural.
1Jn_5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Why didn't John just say "Unbelief is sin", if we cannot be charged with "ALL Unrighteousness" (sin)?

So if somebody is into spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar, then they sin against their own body (Christ, 1Cor 6:18).

Still don't see where you get Hagar from 1 Cor 6:18 because Paul is using the Gentiles as an analogy and they are not into spiritual adultery or fornication, they are into physical fornication and adultery. They are are not cheating on God, then. Their god is Satan, the god of this world. They are being faithful to him in, their spiritual father.

We see this same warning in James 4.
Note James 4:4 addresses (spiritual) adulterers (into sexual immorality with Hagar).
James 4:12 confirms how it's addressing legalists into sexual immorality with Hagar.

There is no reason that James 4 cannot be talking about physical lust, also. I believe it includes both physical and spiritual lust, because both lead to idols before God.

And James 4:7,8 is a salvation call to these unbelievers/SINNERS.


If you come to Brisbane Australia I can introduce to some friends who share the same understanding.

Also I've met a number of others on various other forums who also share very similar understandings of the scriptures.

Please share the forums with us, because I went to forums where I found you hoping that I may find some convincing material, but I haven't. If there is someone else who can explain your position better, I would be happy to read the material.

One of them in USA plan to publish a book showing from scripture why it says that Christians cannot sin.
This same guy also referred me to a church in USA that also preaches the same, that Christians cannot sin

Can I suggest that rather than trying to belittle what I've shared from scripture, that you actually offer a plausible alternative backed up by scripture.

Scripture confirms scripture so if you can offer an alternative explanation, based on scripture, to explain away the scriptures that say Christians cannot sin, then that would do far better than just trying to belittle another.

Christians cannot sin when they are walking in the Spirit. We have been set free from the power of sin so that now we have a choice. We don't have to sin, but sometimes we still do. The life and walk of the Christian is a life totally dependent on Jesus Christ to bring one into maturity (love and fruit and righteousness manifested in their behavior and walk). Sin will harden one's heart and draw you away from Christ, causing you to shrink back at His appearing and therefore you must walk in humility before the Lord not trying to cover up your sins as Adam and Eve, did. He is loving, kind and faithful to forgive.

I am wondering if verses like this one, below have any meaning anymore to people that hold to your theology, Haz?

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You will say that I am a legalist for talking about obedience, but let's try to concentrate on what the verses says.

Obedience is not legalism.

Where did you ever get that notion?

 

[haz]

Haz,

Whatever myself or anyone else has said you call it something different. I say that your theology is dangerous, and you call it belittling. I show scripture that confirms scripture and you take the stance that only your understanding of the scripture is correct. Many besides myself, have shown scriptures where Paul, Peter and James are talking about Christians sinning and you call it something different. It is as if you and your folks in Brisbane have some secret (gnostic) knowledge that no one else has. Is it only Brisbane and only one person in the USA? Are there not others? And you say that someone is coming out with a book on it, meaning (after 2,000 years) there are no current writings on this subject.

Axehead

The belittling tactic you used that I was referring to was your point about there being so few of us with this understanding. That is no point whatsoever, yet you use it.

According to your logic then, the Catholics must be right as they're the largest church.

And according to your logic scripture is wrong when it says in Matt 7:13,14

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


BTW, I did not say there is only one in USA who shares the same understanding as I. Please read my post again to see.
I've met several who share this same understanding on many of the forums I've joined.
There's at least one church in the USA that I'm so far aware of (no doubt there are more that I'm not aware of) who likewise preach that Christians cannot sin (1John 3:9.).
Another I've encountered from USA has a popular web site preaching the same.

So again I suggest you just make your point using scripture instead of trying to belittle another by saying they are a minority whose understanding is irrelevant simply because they are a minority.

Remember that narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Or did God get that wrong?

I am wondering if verses like this one, below have any meaning anymore to people that hold to your theology, Haz?

Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You will say that I am a legalist for talking about obedience, but let's try to concentrate on what the verses says.

Obedience is not legalism.

Where did you ever get that notion?

I'm not sure what obedience you think is required. Is it deeds of the law?

But for Christians our obedience is described in 1John 3:22,23.
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

What I describe as legalism is the doctrine of those on forums who preach deeds of the law or else one is unrighteous and condemned.

These legalists follow a lukewarm mix works of the law, with grace (which cannot be done, Rom 11:6).
And there are variations on such legalism. Examples are:

1: Deeds of the law are required and each of us has a sin ledger that must be perfectly balanced with confessions or else we're unrighteous and condemned.

2: One must attain some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience to the law, or else.

3: One must attain perfect obedience to the law.

Are you following one of the 3 above?

 

[Axehead]

Haz,

I don't go for either extreme. I don't believe the largest religious institution in the world has the truth on this and I don't believe one church in America and a handful of brothers in Brisbane Australia necessarily have the truth on this.

Every time the word obedience or obey is brought up you call it legalism. And those words are throughout the New Testament. Those two verses I mentioned talk about obeying Him. Obeying Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the law, it has everything to do with being led by the Spirit. You cannot be led by the Spirit and not obeying Jesus Christ at the same time. So you see obedience is a big part of the Christian walk and it has nothing to do with legalism.

Do you believe that we are to obey Jesus Christ, and that we are to purify our souls by obeying the truth? Do you believe that we are to obey the Holy Spirit?

Can you please give links to this church in America that teaches your theology and can you provide other materials maybe they explain it better than you do.

I think you're trying to say using Romans 8:33 and other scriptures, that the sins of a Christian cannot be held against them. But that is another subject altogether, and then, we will have to talk about Ananias and Sapphira, who lied to the Holy Spirit.

Christians do sin, engage in unrighteousness and walk in the flesh. The New Testament is full of scriptures that indicate this and your life and my life and others on this forum also indicate it.

Axehead

 

[haz]

Haz,

I don't go for either extreme. I don't believe the largest religious institution in the world has the truth on this and I don't believe one church in America and a handful of brothers in Brisbane Australia necessarily have the truth on this.

Every time the word obedience or obey is brought up you call it legalism. And those words are throughout the New Testament. Those two verses I mentioned talk about obeying Him. Obeying Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the law, it has everything to do with being led by the Spirit. You cannot be led by the Spirit and not obeying Jesus Christ at the same time. So you see obedience is a big part of the Christian walk and it has nothing to do with legalism.

Do you believe that we are to obey Jesus Christ, and that we are to purify our souls by obeying the truth? Do you believe that we are to obey the Holy Spirit?

Again you are assuming how few there are who share the same understanding as I. I just told you of the ones that I'm aware of.
I'll find the links for the 2 I found so far in the USA and post them later as I'm at work now and have limited time.

But I'm sure you must realize that the truth is not determined by a popularity contest, hence I don't know why you would suggest it might be. It's God who teaches the truth.

As for your issue about obedience and my issue with the law, the fact is that most who focus on obedience inevitably reveal they refer to the law and that disobedience results in one being unrighteous and condemned. I'm not sure what your position is yet as you have not made it that clear.

Do you believe that we are to obey Jesus Christ, and that we are to purify our souls by obeying the truth? Do you believe that we are to obey the Holy Spirit?

Christians have been purified once we obeyed God's will (John 6:40) which is to believe on Jesus, 1John 3:3. Purification is not a gradual process.

The thief on the cross was purified. He obeyed Christ to believe on him, John 3:16.

 

[Axehead]

Again you are assuming how few there are who share the same understanding as I. I just told you of the ones that I'm aware of.
I'll find the links for the 2 I found so far in the USA and post them later as I'm at work now and have limited time.

But I'm sure you must realize that the truth is not determined by a popularity contest, hence I don't know why you would suggest it might be. It's God who teaches the truth.

As for your issue about obedience and my issue with the law, the fact is that most who focus on obedience inevitably reveal they refer to the law and that disobedience results in one being unrighteous and condemned. I'm not sure what your position is yet as you have not made it that clear.


Christians have been purified once we obeyed God's will (John 6:40) which is to believe on Jesus, 1John 3:3. Purification is not a gradual process.

The thief on the cross was purified. He obeyed Christ to believe on him, John 3:16.

Haz,

I know truth is not determined by popularity contest, but then again after 2,000 years there should be many "witnesses" even though they don't number in the millions. God has a remnant in every generation and it would be helpful if you could point me to some writings that have been put online regarding previous generations of a remnant that adhered to this understanding. Do the writings or thoughts on this only exist in your generation or are there older "witnesses" from previous centuries?

1 Peter 1:22 (KJV) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: The key here is "through the Spirit", which modern versions leave out. They have implicitly attacked the work of the Spirit in the life of a true believer. By removing "the Spirit", it makes it look like we can obey God on our own without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. The fact is that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they are unsaved.

(Rom 8:9 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Romans verse confirms that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit living in them, they do not belong to Christ. The only way a person can ever be obedient to the truth is when the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them. In other words, we see a very important tenet of salvation being omitted here. No person, who is in the flesh, can ever please God.

(Rom 8:8 KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Therefore, when the Gnostics removed this portion of the verse, they were keeping in line with their disbelief of a spirit world, especially the Holy Spirit. Their idea of salvation is to be pumped up with more and more knowledge.

The Bible says that "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit". 1Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

In 1 Peter 1:22 it is talking about our souls, not our spirit and they are not the same as we learn in Thessalonians.
1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The purification of our souls is an ongoing process as we live and walk with Christ on this earth. It is a work of the Holy Spirit to sanctify our souls and this includes renewing our mind daily with the Word of God (cleansing us through the truth) and delivering us from old thought and sin patterns in our flesh (body). On one hand we are justified and cleansed before the Lord and we become a member of the household of faith. Our spirits have been regenerated, but our mind and body has not been regenerated. One day after you are saved, you still have your same body and your same soul (mind, will and emotions), but your spirit has been regenerated and is joined to the Lord. This will have a positive effect now on the daily sanctification of your soul as the Christian will learn to yield more and more of their mind, will and emotions to Christ.

There is a sanctification process at work through the Spirit in a believer's life in the area of his/her soul. Now, that one is a Christian, as their mind is renewed by the Word of Truth, they will reclaim more and more of their mind, will and emotions and bring them into subjection to Christ (through the Holy Spirit). Your theology presupposes that a person is saved and then there is no work for the Holy Spirit to do in one's life. Every Christian on this forum can probably testify as they came into more and more truth (reneweing of the mind), that the Lord delivered from this or that habit or weight (that so easily besets them).

Just as Israel was saved and delivered from Egypt and then had a walk to walk in taking back land from the "enemy", the Christian has a walk to walk in taking back land (mind, will emotions, body) for the service of Christ. We have the Spirit of God to be overcomers, but we all have to learn to walk by faith and "possess the land", completely as God commands.

This is the process of sanctification of our souls.

This is not about working for our salvation and cleansing ourselves to be good enough for heaven. That was done at the cross. This is about relationship with Christ and walking with Him and keeping covenant with Him.

After writing to the church about being freed from sin and the power of sin so that we now have a choice and don't have to sin, Paul tells the Church to not let sin reign in your mortal body. He is referring to the sanctification of our body and soul so that we yield our members as instruments of righteousness utno God now and no longer as members of unrighteousness. The members of the soul are our mind, will and emotions.

If one understands that their soul was not regenerated and joined to the Lord, but their spirit was, then Romans 6 makes a lot more sense to them. They realize that they have a walk to walk now and land to conquer and possess through the Spirit of Christ.

Num_33:53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.

What are the inhabitants of the land? Everything that seeks to destroy us and the work of God in our lives. Wrong thinking, fragile and weak emotions, easily hurt, and a passive will. And a body of flesh that has "muscle memory" of many years of habitual sin. All of these must be sanctified and brought into subjection to Christ.

1Co_9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Ti_1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Just because God gave Israel the land, does not mean that they experientially possessed it. It is the same thing in the Believer's life. We must walk by faith and possess the land. From glory to glory He is changing us (sanctifying our soul) and it is a process.

2Co_3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Axehead

No matter when anyone of us have been saved or how many years we were in the world, we have all been bruised and battered by the world, by sin, by Satan and we all need the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit upon our souls. It is not a one time thing.

Matt_12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Luke_4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Even the Lord did not drive all the "enemies" out in one day or even one year.

Exo_23:29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.

Their land surely would have become desolate because they would not have grown in faith and matured and known how to maintain their deliverance. They would not have grown in their "faith" relationship with God and learned His ways which are definitely not our ways.

It is no different with the Christian. God teaches us through relationship, day by day and that includes many failures. And if we give up, and shrink back and don't continue on there is no good that will come out of it in this life.

Num_33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

 

[haz]

Haz,

I know truth is not determined by popularity contest, but then again after 2,000 years there should be many "witnesses" even though they don't number in the millions. God has a remnant in every generation and it would be helpful if you could point me to some writings that have been put online regarding previous generations of a remnant that adhered to this understanding. Do the writings or thoughts on this only exist in your generation or are there older "witnesses" from previous centuries?

The writings you look for as proof are in the Bible.

As for any subsequent believers in the centuries following, I haven't searched for any. We all know that there are many who have written their various understandings of the Bible throughout the centuries. I hope your not saying we are to pick and choose one to rely and trust in, regardless of the fact that Christ is our teacher here and now?

Anyway, here are some links to a few of the others who I've found so far that preach that Christians cannot sin, 1John 3:9.

http://allsaintschurch.weebly.com/sermon-series-1-john---the-letter-of-joyful-assurance.html

http://theshovel.net/

http://www.newcovenantgrace.com/what-is-sin/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/195518640547928/592396327526822/?notif_t=group_activity

Hope this helps.

1 Peter 1:22 (KJV) Seeing ye have purified your souls in OBEYING THE TRUTH through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: The key here is "through the Spirit", which modern versions leave out. They have implicitly attacked the work of the Spirit in the life of a true believer. By removing "the Spirit", it makes it look like we can obey God on our own without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. The fact is that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they are unsaved.

Note 1Pet 1:18-21 for context.
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things,like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Thus we see that the truth that Christians obeyed is to believe on Jesus. It's this that purified us.

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

The Bible says that "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit". 1Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

In 1 Peter 1:22 it is talking about our souls, not our spirit and they are not the same as we learn in Thessalonians.
1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved BLAMELESS unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Thess 5:23 speaks of Christians being presevered BLAMELESS
To preserve means to "keep in perfect or unaltered condition: maintain unchanged".
Blameless means: Free from blame, innocent.


Thus we see that 1Thess 5:23 is not speaking of a gradual process. Instead it speaks of Christians (spirit, soul and body) who are already sanctified by Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:10) are to remain PRESERVED (perfect or unaltered condition) BLAMELESS (free of any blame, being innocent), unto the coming of the Lord.

Both you and I know that if this was referring to our physical behaviour, as you suggested, then no Christians would ever be sanctified through the gradual process you speak of.

The gradual process of sanctification you speak of creates another problem for those with death bed salvation, or live a very short life as a Christian. To say there is a gradual process of sanctification would imply that those with death bed salvation or a very short life, sadly miss out on this sanctification process. This would either mean that they're not sanctified upon entering God's kingdom, or else they get fast tracked after their death.

Can you see the problem?

But remember for one to be preserved blameless, clearly shows that they were blameless to begin with.
And this is what I've been trying to show from scriptures. In Christ, Christians are blameless. We "cannot sin"(1John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin"(1Pet 4:1). This is not to say we are perfect in the physical (and that physical is already dead, by faith, because of sin, Rom 8:10). Instead it's talking about the new creation whose life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. It refers to our position in Christ.
And we're preserved blameless as long as we continue to believe on Jesus.

BTW, what was the name you used in the CN blog forum.

 

[Axehead]

The writings you look for as proof are in the Bible.

As for any subsequent believers in the centuries following, I haven't searched for any. We all know that there are many who have written their various understandings of the Bible throughout the centuries. I hope your not saying we are to pick and choose one to rely and trust in, regardless of the fact that Christ is our teacher here and now?

Anyway, here are some links to a few of the others who I've found so far that preach that Christians cannot sin, 1John 3:9.

http://allsaintschurch.weebly.com/sermon-series-1-john---the-letter-of-joyful-assurance.html

http://theshovel.net/

http://www.newcovenantgrace.com/what-is-sin/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/195518640547928/592396327526822/?notif_t=group_activity

Hope this helps.


Note 1Pet 1:18-21 for context.
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things,like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Thus we see that the truth that Christians obeyed is to believe on Jesus. It's this that purified us.

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.



1Thess 5:23 speaks of Christians being presevered BLAMELESS
To preserve means to "keep in perfect or unaltered condition: maintain unchanged".
Blameless means: Free from blame, innocent.


Thus we see that 1Thess 5:23 is not speaking of a gradual process. Instead it speaks of Christians (spirit, soul and body) who are already sanctified by Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:10) are to remain PRESERVED (perfect or unaltered condition) BLAMELESS (free of any blame, being innocent), unto the coming of the Lord.

Both you and I know that if this was referring to our physical behaviour, as you suggested, then no Christians would ever be sanctified through the gradual process you speak of.

The gradual process of sanctification you speak of creates another problem for those with death bed salvation, or live a very short life as a Christian. To say there is a gradual process of sanctification would imply that those with death bed salvation or a very short life, sadly miss out on this sanctification process. This would either mean that they're not sanctified upon entering God's kingdom, or else they get fast tracked after their death.

Can you see the problem?

But remember for one to be preserved blameless, clearly shows that they were blameless to begin with.
And this is what I've been trying to show from scriptures. In Christ, Christians are blameless. We "cannot sin"(1John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin"(1Pet 4:1). This is not to say we are perfect in the physical (and that physical is already dead, by faith, because of sin, Rom 8:10). Instead it's talking about the new creation whose life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. It refers to our position in Christ.
And we're preserved blameless as long as we continue to believe on Jesus.

BTW, what was the name you used in the CN blog forum.

Haz,

While on earth we are admonished to overcome and the Lord will be changing us in our soul (mind, will and emotions).

Please see this other post:

What I am talking about has nothing to do with salvation and yes one will miss out, but to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord and being with the Lord should be our greatest desire. That desire should affect how we walk on earth and if our desire is truly to be with the Lord then we will walk circumspectly here on earth and possessing our vessels in sanctification and honour.

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: (the analogy with the Gentiles implies physical lust).

Haz, I am not belittling you, but you always say Scripture is spiritually discerned and yet do not see the scriptures and there are many, many of them that pertain to the sanctification of our souls while we walk with God on earth. Why do you think there is no growth or maturity process within our souls after we become children of God?

By the way, I was only using 1 Thess 5 to show there is a difference between our spirit and soul, as Paul accurately depicts.

And, on another question you had, I did not join any other forums. One can see your posts easily with Google. Here is an example:

Thank you for the links. I am acqainted with theshovel and have read many of his writings and really like them but never saw that he thinks "Christians cannot sin".

Axehead

It is unmistakable that growth and sanctification of our souls is a process in the Lord.

Eph_4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


1Pe_2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2Pe_3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[haz]

Haz,

While on earth we are admonished to overcome and the Lord will be changing us in our soul (mind, will and emotions).

I'm working with my iPad at the moment which is problematic and time consuming to cut paste scriptures, etc. hence I'll just quote scripture references for now.

1John 5: 5 tells us that we overcome when we believe on Jesus. That is we're an overcomer the same day as when we received Jesus. Thus we see that there is no gradual process.

What we do see, however, is the testing of our faith, James 1:3. Christians fight the good fight of faith, to continue in obedience, obeying the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot, blemish, 1Tim 6:12-14.

I'll have to try to finish this post without quoting you as my iPad is not allowing your quotes through this forum.

It's Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us, Heb 10:10.
To suggest that there is a gradual process of sanctification is to suggest that Christ's sacrifice failed to sanctify us completely.

1Thess 4:3, Christians are to abstain from SPIRITUAL fornication with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

1Thess 4:5 the lust referred to here is the lust of the flesh for self righteousness, which is also unbelief.
Is this what you understand also?

As for you claim that your not belittling me, I see it differently as your point has always focused upon the irrelevance of a perceived minority view. You even presented yourself as taking the middle ground between one extreme and the other. But even that is no guarantee of having the truth. Consider Rev 3:15 where God says I wish you were hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm....

So I continue to suggest we should only rely on scriptures to find the truth, whilst looking to Christ, our teacher. Therefore it's best not to rely on human logic that the middle road or the most popular beliefs might be the truth. We should trust in God only for understanding. Christians have the mind of Christ (1Cor 2:16) and he will teach us.

Regarding theshovel, I have not read his web site. He was referred to me by Pieder Beili ( whose Facebook sight I provded a link to). Pieder preaches that Christians cannot sin, and the guy from theshovel is a regular positive contributor to his Facebook site. I would conclude that both agree on the issue that Christians cannot sin as I very much doubt Pieder would refer me to someone who preaches the opposite to what he preaches on sin.

Can you explain what you think 1John 3:6-9 means in regards to sin and Christians?

 

[Axehead]

Hi Haz,

We certainly have some disagreements about the Christian's daily walk and what producing fruit and growth mean in the Christian life but that is no reason that we cannot maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. I apologize for implying and even saying that your theology is destructive and to be sure you never did say that your beliefs were a license for sin and I don't believe that you think that. It has been a very good discussion and it has been good to work with you through some of these things.

Blessings to you,
Axehead

 

[Axehead]

Haz,

Jim (shovelnet) is using Romans 7:17 as his verse to justify his position that we cannot sin,

"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ... unless of course if it is lying or stealing."

I agree with the poster that is questioning Jim, that he is using a statement from Paul's B.C. days and blameshifting, ignoring Paul's comments in Romans 6.


Do you believe that we cannot sin?

Now, to be fair, Jim does refer "Bill.Ions4Christ" to more writings and an audio which I will have to find some time to delve into.

Paul is not excusing himself but rather acknowledging that he has no power within himself to always act with "his better self". It was not his desire to sin and he is only showing his wretched condition without Christ that he finds a tyrant within him that COMPELS him to sin. With Christ, we have the power of the Holy Spirit to now choose not to. It is not that we don't sin, but now we do not have to if we abide in Christ and walk by the power of the Spirit. We no longer have a tyrant (old nature, spirit of disobedience) within us but we do still live in the flesh and must choose the life of the Spirit each day. We have been crucified with Christ and are dead (by faith we continue to reckon we are dead each day).

"Wretched man that I am", is not the cry of a Christian. The "Christian" Paul, has already been made free.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

He that is dead is free from the power of sin to make you do what you do not want to do.

A dead man is free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Our connection with sin was broken off at the Cross and the bondage by which we were formerly held in its power is destroyed by our union with Christ. Paul is saying that we are released from the penalty of sin and the power of sin by Christ.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are to keep on reckoning ourselves as dead to sin, to have died to all that is sinful and in the same way to be living unto God. We must be careful not to weaken Paul's statement of our death to sin in union with Christ. "Death to sin", does not mean the death of sin as a power in our heart. The Apostle did not say that sin is dead to us, but that we in Christ are dead to it and that we are to keep on reckoning ourselves to be so with the reckoning of simple faith.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

It naturally follows then from Paul's teaching that in this "mortal body", the part of us which is destined to die, we have to resist all efforts from the flesh to lead us away from loyalty to the will of God into subjection to the flesh. The flesh will lead us away because that is what the flesh does. It does not know the things of the Spirit or desire them. It is flesh and flesh is earthly and natural and is doing what it does because of what it is. Flesh cannot please God.

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin". Paul is saying, do not choose to yield yourself to sin. Do not sin, because you can, but don't do it because you have been freed from its power and you must reckon and understand and walk in this by faith. We must not let that mortal part of us be our king.

On the contrary, we are to present ourselves to God as "alive from the dead", and to place all of our faculties (members) at His disposal for His service (instruments of righteousness).

We must prove that we are in reality what we reckon ourselves to be.

When Paul tells us not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body, he manifestly implies that our mortal bodies (flesh) has the propensity to sin and we have the faculty/choice to let it reign or not let it reign. It is our choice,

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

We may take 6:14 as a promise, "Sin shall not" or else as a Divine assurance, "Sin will not" have dominion over us.

The Cross of Christ has separated us from the consequences of sin and the authority of sin as transgression. We have been delivered from the penalty of sin through the Cross (His death) and delivered from the power of sin through our union with Christ (His life).

"Reckon" is a faith attitude not a feeling and is based on facts not emotions. We must conclude what God has concluded about ourselves. We have died with Christ and we are therefore to keep on reckoning ourselves to have died and to have risen with Him. Sin will makes its appeal and we must refuse it and we cannot ignore sin and just say "we cannot sin", because of one scripture. We must take the "whole counsel of God" into consideration.

Herein lies our personal responsibility: Because of who Christ is and that His life is in us, we must not let sin be our lord.

The tenses of this verb are striking: "Do not keep on presenting your members as weapons of unrighteousness to sin, but once for all present yourselves to God as those who are living from the dead, and your members as weapons of righteousness for God."

The presentation of ourselves is a deliberate choice based upon our position in Christ Jesus in order that we may be used of God and serve Him daily in righteousness and true holiness which is His life in us.

If you want to go deeper with this and get right down to it, we cannot produce righteousness or holiness, it is His life in us that is holy and righteous. We are derivative creatures and derive our character either from God or Satan. We cannot produce either holiness nor evil. If holiness were intrinsic to us, we would stand apart from God and be a god and if evil were intrinsic to us we would be little devils standing apart from Satan. But, man always looks outside of himself for spiritual life (or death, thinking it is life) and is always dependent on "another". Jesus was absolutely correct when He said, "Ye are of your Father the devil". And that is true, we derive our character from one of two: Either Father God or father Satan. And we are no longer to be presenting our members to unrighteousness (Satan) but to righteousness (God).

Axehead

 

[haz]

It naturally follows then from Paul's teaching that in this "mortal body", the part of us which is destined to die, we have to resist all efforts from the flesh to lead us away from loyalty to the will of God into subjection to the flesh. The flesh will lead us away because that is what the flesh does.

True, the flesh seeks to rule and lead us away from God. Thus we see in scripture (e.g Rom 10:3) that the flesh is not willing to submit to God's righteousness and instead it seeks to establish it's own righteousness. Is it any wonder we see so many warnings in scripture about not turning back to works of the law for righteousness.

BTW, the part of us destined to die is actually already dead, by faith, crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6) because of it's sin, Rom 8:10.

When Christians first obeyed God's will, that we believe on Jesus (john 6:40), that is when our body died, being crucified with Christ. That is when we stopped walking according to the flesh, and started in the Spirit instead. And as long as we continue to believe on Jesus then we continue in the Spirit.

We must prove that we are in reality what we reckon ourselves to be.

What proof do you think scripture says God seeks of us before we given the ok to enter into His kingdom?

I see in scripture that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
Jesus said in John 6:29 that the works we are to do is to believe on him.
And Jesus' commandment is that we believe on him, John 3:16.
And this is all confirmed by God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

And the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" demonstrates this.

Did you have any other proof in mind?

The Cross of Christ has separated us from the consequences of sin and the authority of sin as transgression. We have been delivered from the penalty of sin through the Cross (His death) and delivered from the power of sin through our union with Christ (His life).

"Reckon" is a faith attitude not a feeling and is based on facts not emotions. We must conclude what God has concluded about ourselves. We have died with Christ and we are therefore to keep on reckoning ourselves to have died and to have risen with Him. Sin will makes its appeal and we must refuse it and we cannot ignore sin and just say "we cannot sin", because of one scripture. We must take the "whole counsel of God" into consideration.

Actually there are more than just one scripture stating that Christians cannot sin (1John 3:6-9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, Rom 6:2, 1Pet 4:18, John 8:36, Gal 2:15, Rom 8:33).

We sort of agree in that cross has delivered us from the penalty of sin. It's just that I see in scripture much more to it than what you see.

Herein lies our personal responsibility: Because of who Christ is and that His life is in us, we must not let sin be our lord.

Can you elaborate what you mean here. I think you might be saying that if we sin habitually then sin is our lord and we're lost. Is that correct?

If so can you provide scripture detailing what is habitual sin?
Is it exceeding 7x70 transgressions of the law?

Do you believe that we cannot sin?

Yes, I do believe this as scripture says this, as I've shown from scriptures in previous posts.

I'm not saying that Christians are perfect in physical behavior. Instead I refer to our position in Christ, as believers where our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.