2 answers to 2 questions on the O.D.

[Truth7t7]

Final judgment will not come until the process of rising and falling in nations has taken place throughout the world. And then final judgment will come. And so, the nations fall away, but many people continue to pursue righteousness and to try to direct the fallen back onto the right path. May these be us!

Final judgement will come at the 7th trump second coming (The End) just as scripture teaches

 

[ewq1938]

Final judgement will come at the 7th trump second coming (The End) just as scripture teaches

No, final judgement is shown in Revelation 20 to come after satan is cast into the lake of fire and the unsaved dead are resurrected to be judged. That happens long after the second coming.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Explain how an insatiable appetite for truth in the Word of God goes over the deep end.

You mean for the Wonderful Gems Found By DEEPLY Digging Into The

Inexhaustible Mine Of The Word Of Truth?
​

Bible Answer For Confusing church Bewilderment!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Truth7t7]

No, final judgement is shown in Revelation 20 to come after satan is cast into the lake of fire and the unsaved dead are resurrected to be judged. That happens long after the second coming.

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[ewq1938]

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Speaking of these living and dead:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The judgment of these righteous saints is immortal life. The living saints will be changed into immortals, and the dead shall be resurrected as immortals.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, final judgement is shown in Revelation 20 to come after satan is cast into the lake of fire and the unsaved dead are resurrected to be judged. That happens long after the second coming.

Yes, we might call that final Final Judgment. I agree that the final judgment of the wicked takes place at the end of the Millennium, because many people continue to live during the Millennial reign of Christ, and many will still have to face judgment for their wrong choices.

But often judgment in the present age is depicted as taking place at Armageddon, because that's where the armies of the Antichrist die. This leads to eternal judgment, even though there is yet another judgment to take place at the end of the Millennium for those who live during that time.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, we might call that final Final Judgment. I agree that the final judgment of the wicked takes place at the end of the Millennium, because many people continue to live during the Millennial reign of Christ, and many will still have to face judgment for their wrong choices.

But often judgment in the present age is depicted as taking place at Armageddon, because that's where the armies of the Antichrist die. This leads to eternal judgment, even though there is yet another judgment to take place at the end of the Millennium for those who live during that time.

A battle is different than a judgment. The two judgements in Revelation 20 both include a throne/s.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A battle is different than a judgment. The two judgements in Revelation 20 both include a throne/s.

Yes, a battle has a different definition than a judgment. But a battle can also be a judgment. For me, Armageddon is both a battle and a judgment. At the end of the Millennium something similar will happen, it seems.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, a battle has a different definition than a judgment. But a battle can also be a judgment. For me, Armageddon is both a battle and a judgment.

After the battle there will be an eventual judgment for what choices they made.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for the detailed response, I fully agree with your temple analysis regarding the death of Jesus Christ, and the veil being torn, never to be inhabited by God again, Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice, once and for all "It Is Finished"

I fully disagree with your reformed eschatology in claims of Matthew 24:15 in the AOD being fulfilled by Antoichus Epiphanies 167BC or some 70AD figure

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination is a "Future" event unfulfilled, just as Daniel 9:27 below clearly teaches, the future bad guy will be present on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" a "Future" event unfulfilled, it's that simple, and scripture isn't going to change

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys reformed eschatology's claims in Antiochus Epiphanies or some 70AD figure "Gone"

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end :Finish

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus Is The Lord

OK that's fine. I believe the consummation refers to the final end of something, and in Daniel 9:27 it's referring to the temple building in Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 A.D.

But I'm not too bothered about the fact we disagree - and thanks for telling me I'm following Reformed Theology (otherwise I would never have known and would never have known how correct Reformed Theology is about this, at least) - but I'm just relieved that you know that the temple in Jerusalem destroyed in 70 A.D had ceased being the holy place since circa 40 years before it was destroyed. This fact is a foundational tenet in Christianity.

 

[Truth7t7]

OK that's fine. I believe the consummation refers to the final end of something, and in Daniel 9:27 it's referring to the temple building in Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 A.D.

But I'm not too bothered about the fact we disagree - and thanks for telling me I'm following Reformed Theology (otherwise I would never have known and would never have known how correct Reformed Theology is about this, at least) - but I'm just relieved that you know that the temple in Jerusalem destroyed in 70 A.D had ceased being the holy place since circa 40 years before it was destroyed. This fact is a foundational tenet in Christianity.

Just additional thought in Daniel 9:27, you have the consummation and the "Pouring Upon The Desolate" this being God's cup of wrath (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Zao is life]

Just additional thought in Daniel 9:27, you have the consummation and the "Pouring Upon The Desolate" this being God's cup of wrath (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Right. How many abominations in that verse compared to the verse in Matthew 24:15?

@Truth7t7

Following the style of all prophetic scripture, the first part of verse 26 and the first part of verse 27 are speaking of one and the same person and His actions, and likewise with the second part of each verse:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

26 And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Right. How many abominations in that verse compared to the verse in Matthew 24:15?

@Truth7t7

Following the style of all prophetic scripture, the first part of verse 26 and the first part of verse 27 are speaking of one and the same person and His actions, and likewise with the second part of each verse:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

26 And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Same Future Event

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Revelation 16:19KJV
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

[Zao is life]

Same Future Event

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Revelation 16:19KJV
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

A.D 70 is the biblical type of Revelation 16:19.
Jerusalem, the harlot of the Old Testament, is the biblical type of Babylon the Great, the New Testament harlot.
When God's elect people play the harlot, God calls them a harlot.

Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem in the Revelation:

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters"

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).
Babylon the Great is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

But into New Jerusalem "there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

See also the FORNICATION of Jezebel - a Christian congregation - in Revelation 2.

God's message to the wise who understand, and do not point a finger at a 2,000 year old corpse (i.e the harlot of old):

20 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!
22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Romans 11

The above is God's message to the wise who understand. His message is never going to be understood by the unwise, the prideful, the boastful who are complacent in their "holier and more righteous than thou" ("holier and more righteous than thou, O Corpse, than thou, O Jewish harlot of old") attitudes.

Babylon the Great is the New Testament harlot, not the old one.

So yeah, many Christians enjoy fantasizing about the continued torture of a corpse. The shock of the great tribulation Christians are going to go through is going to be great to them (and because by then most Christians will be members of the New Testament harlot, they will be able to feel what it's like to have "their flesh eaten and be burned with fire" - Revelation 17:16, just like the Old Testament harlot was, whose torture they loved, and want to see happen again).

 

[Truth7t7]

A.D 70 is the biblical type of Revelation 16:19.
Jerusalem, the harlot of the Old Testament, is the biblical type of Babylon the Great, the New Testament harlot.
When God's elect people play the harlot, God calls them a harlot.

Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem in the Revelation:

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters"

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).
Babylon the Great is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

But into New Jerusalem "there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

See also the FORNICATION of Jezebel - a Christian congregation - in Revelation 2.

God's message to the wise who understand, and do not point a finger at a 2,000 year old corpse (i.e the harlot of old):

20 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!
22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Romans 11

The above is God's message to the wise who understand. His message is never going to be understood by the unwise, the prideful, the boastful who are complacent in their "holier and more righteous than thou" ("holier and more righteous than thou, O Corpse, than thou, O Jewish harlot of old") attitudes.

Babylon the Great is the New Testament harlot, not the old one.

So yeah, many Christians enjoy fantasizing about the continued torture of a corpse. The shock of the great tribulation Christians are going to go through is going to be great to them (and because by then most Christians will be members of the New Testament harlot, they will be able to feel what it's like to have "their flesh eaten and be burned with fire" - Revelation 17:16, just like the Old Testament harlot was, whose torture they loved, and want to see happen again).

The preterist claims of 70AD fulfillment have no part concerning Revelation chapter 16 whatsoever

The book of Revelation was written in 95AD while John was at Patmos under Emperor Domitians reign, he was writing prophetically on future things to take place, not historically in 70AD fulfillment as claimed

 

[covenantee]

Just additional thought in Daniel 9:27, you have the consummation and the "Pouring Upon The Desolate" this being God's cup of wrath (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Debunked by Daniel's grammar.