2 Peter 3:10 The Big Whoosh

[CadyandZoe]

I agree with what you say. I think it will be the biggest scorched earth happening ever!

Hi Nancy, thanks for joining the conversation.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I agree with what you say. I think it will be the biggest scorched earth happening ever!

Hi Nancy, Would you print out my attachment from post #27 and tell me if the Zephaniah reference of the day of the Lord is a scorched earth or total elimination of the planet?

 

[Nancy]

Hi all,
I just finished my latest video, which was inspired by my discussion with folks on the thread concerning Amillennialism. I want to thank all those who stuck with me and helped me understand the topic better.

Here is a link to the video.

Title: The Big Whoosh 2Peter 3:10

Opening line: Today we are going to examine 2 Peter chapter 3. Peter will mention the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ, but his main point is focused on the believer's standpoint with regard to the total destruction of the heavens and the earth, or what I am calling the “Big Whoosh” based on Peter's remark that the heavens and earth will pass away with a roar.

I hope you enjoy it. Let me know what you think.

@WPM @Spiritual Israelite @Timtofly @Truth7t7 @covenantee @Randy Kluth @jeffweeder @Marty fox @Charlie24 @stunnedbygrace @The Light

Excellent video. Time, eternity - His time, our time. No, He is not at all slack, He want's all to come to Him until the last one who will come comes...hmmm, lol. I see His timing (day/1000 yrs.) as an awesome loving act!

We all need to hold onto "things" of this world very lightly, "Seek the eternal" Amen!

 

[Zao is life]

First of all, I didn't mean to exclude anyone with my list. I'm glad you felt free to respond and join the conversation.

I would say, no, we should not ignore what the words mean in other contexts as we interpret and understand what Peter wrote. But we must strive to understand what Peter meant to say. Peter's second epistle should be understood the way Peter meant it to be understood.

I strongly agree with your two approaches to the task: 1) take into account what came before and what comes after the text under examination. Ideas tend to flow like a river. The text under review is like a bridge and interpreters are standing on that bridge. In order to fully comprehend the text, the interpreter considers both the flow upstream and the flow down stream of the bridge. 2) examine how words are used in other contexts.

I think both of these tasks are important to fully understanding the text. So no, I don't think we should ignore how the words are used elsewhere. But, and I also think this is important. I never discount the idea that the Biblical author might use a word in a novel way. Again, I want to know how Peter is using the word in the immediate context, and if I suspect that the other meanings don't seem to fit, then I am open to a novel meaning.

I can't address your entire post, but I will share with you a point that I seriously considered, which you might find helpful in your own studies. The Greek word translated "world" is κόσμος, which refers to any ordered system.

Given this, let's look at a passage you already mentioned. Galatians 4:3

​

4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.​

​

We see from this example that τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου is rendered "the elemental things of the world" but Paul's subject matter isn't the world. He isn't talking about the elements of this physical world, or even the fundamental things of the current culture or political structure. The subject matter in this context is the Law, and the fact that the Jewish people were held under the law as a guardian. Jesus was born of a women, born under the law, that he might redeem those who were under the law. In my opinion then, the τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου refers to the elementary principles of the Jewish legal system. The Jewish people were under bondage to the rudiments of the Jewish praxis. I think Colossians and Hebrews are also talking about the rudiments of the Jewish law.

As I studied 2 Peter 3, I seriously considered, but finally rejected this meaning. I don't think Peter is talking about the rudiments of the Jewish praxis. During my studies I was thinking about what a new earth might look like. Is it going to be a brand new planet, is it going to be a refreshed and restored planet or is it going to be the same planet but freed from idolatry and impurity (two issues that came between God and his people) I haven't fully answered that question for myself yet. But regardless of what a new earth might look like, I think Peter's essential point remains the same. Downplay the transitory and focus on the eternal.

Thank you. Yes. That's my view - the part I highlighted at the bottom of your post above. We are already a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15) and we have already come unto Mount Zion (Hebrews 12:22). Paul speaks about the creation eagerly waiting to be delivered from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:19-23) and also teaches that this body that dies becomes the seed of a body, spiritual that it will be (1 Corinthians 15:34-46).

It's almost as though in the apostles' mind the resurrection of the sons of God will also bring about a resurrection of the creation. Not a completely "new start" for a new creation. as in Genesis 1:1 - but a regeneration.

 

[Keraz]

I also believe that the prophets speak about a time of destruction, which is relegated to Judea, not the entire world. Joel for example.

A devastation and depopulation of the Middle East as described in Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Psalms 83, +, will affect all the world.
Do not make the mistake that the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, won't affect everyone, worldwide. It will and the world wil never be the same again.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy, Would you print out my attachment from post #27 and tell me if the Zephaniah reference of the day of the Lord is a scorched earth or total elimination of the planet?

Hello Christian Gedge!
I do still see that all things alive, dead, silver, gold...ALL things on, above and beneath will one day be destroyed...refined by fire? And a new earth will be made.

"...the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

"The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger."

 

[The PuP]

Okay, thanks for helping me understand your view better. I was wondering why you think that Peter's wording necessarily indicates that the day of the Lord is a single day of judgment, ruling out the possibility that judgment comes at the end of a longer period of time?

Sorry, if that is how it came across. I don't believe it's a "single" or short period of time. I will try to review what I wrote and explain why it is not. In a brief nutshell, the DOTL equates to the "day of Christ" when the Father places all enemies under Christ's feet... when HE sends the Son to rule in the midst of his enemies, Psalm 110. As 1Co 15:25 states, HE (God) must reign until, until, until he places all authority into Christ's hands.
Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[GEN2REV]

Hi all,
I just finished my latest video, which was inspired by my discussion with folks on the thread concerning Amillennialism. I want to thank all those who stuck with me and helped me understand the topic better.

Here is a link to the video.

Title: The Big Whoosh 2Peter 3:10

Opening line: Today we are going to examine 2 Peter chapter 3. Peter will mention the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ, but his main point is focused on the believer's standpoint with regard to the total destruction of the heavens and the earth, or what I am calling the “Big Whoosh” based on Peter's remark that the heavens and earth will pass away with a roar.

I hope you enjoy it. Let me know what you think.

@WPM @Spiritual Israelite @Timtofly @Truth7t7 @covenantee @Randy Kluth @jeffweeder @Marty fox @Charlie24 @stunnedbygrace @The Light

Nice video.

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but you haven't made a video yet that aligns with the Bible accurately.

You say to Jesus Christ "Why come back at all? Why not just stay in Heaven and destroy the earth from there?"

Who do you think you are to speak to/of the Lord God that way? Seriously, where is your reverence?

If God's Word says that He will destroy the earth upon Jesus' return, how can the clay ask the Potter why He would do such a silly thing?

Isaiah 13:9-11 specifically states that the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall from heaven just exactly as Matthew 24:29-31 does. Those events line up perfectly; and the Matthew passage speaks specifically of this being Jesus' Second Advent. NOT 1,000 years later.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 very .... clearly .... states that when Jesus returns, .... that is THE END.

Now, you either know all of this eschatology and still choose to teach a different message than the Bible, OR you do not know the Bible at all.

Either of which would make you unfit to be teaching God's Truth to the world.

Somebody's gotta say it. Guess it'll have to be me.

 

[GEN2REV]

Now, why did you bring this up?
It seems so out of place and a complete non-sequitur.
This really deserves its own thread, but here is the essential point I want to make here.
You, and others, wield the doctrine like a cudgel and use it to derail threads.
Look how effective it is. Simply mention the doctrine and all of a sudden you have permission to ignore anything else I might say here, in this thread.
The question on the table, here, is whether or not I have properly explicated what Peter meant to say.

Again, thanks for watching the video, and I appreciate all comments, even those who disagree with me. So keep posting and don't give up.

It actually is kind of an essential point, though. Just sayin'.

If you're not really a Christian, you have no business making videos aimed at Christians under the guise of teaching Scripture.

Makes profound sense.

Don't ya think?

 

[GEN2REV]

the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, which means that his coming is indeterminate.

It is common knowledge, and sense, that it means it will be completely unexpected; it will creep up on the world.

Does that sound like a thousand year event to you?

What is unexpected and catching anybody off guard about a thousand year event?

Whatever organization, church or whatever, that has you so confident in your positions on things is about as corrupt as it could possibly be. You are prideful in your disregard for God's Word, but He laughs at your pride.

Those who disregard plain Scripture, no matter their numbers, or organization, are like dust in the wind. The vast majority of big name pastors and preachers in the spotlight today are utterly corrupt in their teaching, and explanations, of God's Word.

Humble yourself, pray for forgiveness and study the Bible on your own for a few years, paying very close attention to exactly what it says.

 

[The PuP]

Sorry, if that is how it came across. I don't believe it's a "single" or short period of time. I will try to review what I wrote and explain why it is not. In a brief nutshell, the DOTL equates to the "day of Christ" when the Father places all enemies under Christ's feet... when HE sends the Son to rule in the midst of his enemies, Psalm 110. As 1Co 15:25 states, HE (God) must reign until, until, until he places all authority into Christ's hands.
Be Blessed
The PuP

When Peter says "the lord is not slack concerning his promise", it is following on the heels of him talking about how a day is like a thousand years, and then continues by saying that God is not willing that any should perish. In essence he is saying that the DOTL is a protracted time of showing mercy. The DOTL is not simply punishment for the wicked but it is also a time of reward for the righteous. I think that many get lost in the idea that it is just a time to punish the wicked. But Jesus is coming to judge the secrets of men's hearts... [do you love me?] will be a question that we all must answer and that answer is manifest in the deeds we do and why we do them. It is on the easy side of things to to identify those who are unashamed to say they either love or hate Jesus, aka cold or hot. Those who are lukewarm will be spewed out of Jesus's mouth. They have a relationship with Jesus but fence straddling will end with Jesus in charge.
As I have said earlier, the day of Christ, aka, the Lord, is the "day" when God puts all of Christ's enemies under his feet. When Christ comes with the holy angels, then he will begin judging the secrets of men's hearts, which is essentially the same event described as separating the sheep from the goats. Even as judging the secrets of men's hearts is not a simple thing to do (deceivers abound) so is separating the sheep from the goats. Judging someone just because they think an evil thought is an incomplete and unfair judgment. Jesus is not going to "reward" every man for his thoughts and intentions, but he is going to reward everyone for their deeds. The final purpose for the millennium is to get everyone to act upon their thoughts and intentions. No one will be accidentally or unfairly cast into the lake of fire. You will be there because of your deeds!

Let me try to get back on track. When most people read in 1 The 5 or 2Pet. 3 that the day of the Lord comes like a thief, they almost invariably jump to the conclusion that destruction, in the form of the DOTL, is what comes in unexpectedly. Making that wrong association is easy to do. It is the DOTL that comes in unexpectedly, but the destruction comes later, once the intents of men's hearts have become manifest. Destruction is a part of it [and that is Peter's point] but that is not how it will begin. It will come in when men say peace and safety. It is the peace and safety that ushers in the DOTL, and not destruction. Think back to what Jesus said to the Pharisees in Luke 17: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. It won't come in with a pompous fanfare or celebratory glee. It will come in mostly unnoticed.

Look now at Luke's account of the Olivet discourse and how he ends it. Look at what is missing and what is added relative to the accounts of the O.D. found in Matthew and Mark. Luke leaves out the trumpet sounding to gather the elect, compared to Matt and Mark. But then Luke adds, "when you see all these things come to pass, then the KOG will be nigh". And, in alluding to the gathering of the elect (in Mt & Mk) as part of "all these things", Matt and Mark then say that his (Jesus) coming will THEN be nigh. In all accounts they reference "all these things"... and that means all of those terrible things that Jesus has just told them about. Look what follows in Matthew's account. THEN, if any man will say, my Lord delays his coming, he shall experience weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is the parallel and equivalent statement that Peter makes when he says, scoffers will come IN THE LAST DAYS, saying, where is the promise of his coming. After "all these things", Peace will return to the earth, and the kingdom of God comes in without fanfare or commotion. Destruction will soon follow, as does the kingdom of the beast. You see, how does Jesus come judging the secrets of men's hearts? It will come by giving men the undeniable choice between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the beast. To choose the KOG means choosing not to accept the mark of the beast... certain death! Or certain life!

Getting back to what Mt & Mk include versus what Luke leaves out, and we find that the silent arrival of the KOG equates to the arrival of the DOTL. With the end of the 42 months kingdom of the beast will bring in great destruction. The KOG will last 1000 years because the Lord is not willing that ANY should perish unjustly. Mercy will be extended for all those, even if it's for only a very small minority, Let it sink down deep. God is not willing that any should perish. Let me just stated in closing: how, what, where and when does the KOG come?
What is it? The reign of the Son of man, as the day of Christ.
How does it come? When God says to the Son at his right hand, "Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies"... it is only in the power of the Father to know the times and seasons.
Where does it come? It comes in fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham's seed, "thou shalt inherit this land forever! The covenant of the law, made at Sinai, can never disannul the promise made to Abraham, Gal 3:17.
When does the KOG come? At the last trumpet!

1Co 15:50-52 KJV 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus refers to the run-up to the day of the Lord, which is filled with fire, smoke, and destruction. This situation is NOT the big whoosh, which takes place at the end of the world, but another destruction which is centered in the Middle east.

Jesus Destroys "All" The Wicked, Not Some But "All" When He Is Revealed, Read It Again And Again!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus Destroys "All" The Wicked, Not Some But "All" When He Is Revealed, Read It Again And Again!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

And was that a global destruction or some cities? You always misuse that verse when anyone that knows the story will know it is not a global killing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

A devastation and depopulation of the Middle East as described in Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Psalms 83, +, will affect all the world.
Do not make the mistake that the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, won't affect everyone, worldwide. It will and the world wil never be the same again.

Doesn't Revelation say that the Trumpets will affect a third of the world?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sorry, if that is how it came across. I don't believe it's a "single" or short period of time. I will try to review what I wrote and explain why it is not. In a brief nutshell, the DOTL equates to the "day of Christ" when the Father places all enemies under Christ's feet... when HE sends the Son to rule in the midst of his enemies, Psalm 110. As 1Co 15:25 states, HE (God) must reign until, until, until he places all authority into Christ's hands.
Be Blessed
The PuP

Thanks, this is helpful.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nice video.

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but you haven't made a video yet that aligns with the Bible accurately.

You say to Jesus Christ "Why come back at all? Why not just stay in Heaven and destroy the earth from there?"

Who do you think you are to speak to/of the Lord God that way? Seriously, where is your reverence?

If God's Word says that He will destroy the earth upon Jesus' return, how can the clay ask the Potter why He would do such a silly thing?

Isaiah 13:9-11 specifically states that the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall from heaven just exactly as Matthew 24:29-31 does. Those events line up perfectly; and the Matthew passage speaks specifically of this being Jesus' Second Advent. NOT 1,000 years later.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 very .... clearly .... states that when Jesus returns, .... that is THE END.

Now, you either know all of this eschatology and still choose to teach a different message than the Bible, OR you do not know the Bible at all.

Either of which would make you unfit to be teaching God's Truth to the world.

Somebody's gotta say it. Guess it'll have to be me.

I don't agree with the dichotomy you propose. The rhetorical question intends to convey neither one of the meanings you propose. The actual intent of the question proposes that a particular interpretation of this passage fails to make sense of the passage or convey what Peter actually meant to convey. The question is not meant to convey distrust in what Peter actually said.

One is always allowed to question whether a particular interpretation of a Bible passage makes sense of the passage. The rhetorical question found in the video proposes that a particular interpretation of this passage has not considered the practicality of remaining out of danger when something is destroyed.

I don't think I need to ask why construction workers remove themselves from an area where explosives are detonated. The explosive expert yells "fire in the hole" as fair warning that an explosive is about to be detonated and that anyone in the blast zone must quickly leave or that person will be hurt or killed.

A particular interpretation of this passage pictures Jesus entering a blast zone, which everyone understands is foolish. Since we all agree that Jesus would never do anything foolish, then we should at least consider whether that interpretation is the right one or not.

When the earth is destroyed, if it is destroyed, then the earth is a blast zone, which no one would enter. When the earth is destroyed all human life will be removed from the area for the safety of all. The idea that the earth will be destroyed the moment of Jesus coming defies common sense.

Right?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It actually is kind of an essential point, though. Just sayin'.

If you're not really a Christian, you have no business making videos aimed at Christians under the guise of teaching Scripture.

Makes profound sense.

Don't ya think?

I don't agree. What you propose would only make sense if I had belief-authority over those who watch the video. I don't have that kind of authority. Those who watch the video are under no obligation to believe what I say. There is no grand inquisitor that will come to your house and beat the crap out of you if you don't confess my teaching.

Secondly, at the end of the video it states, "If this video has been helpful to your own studies . . ." This statement clearly defines my standpoint with regard to the content. I assume, as every Christian should, that each individual Christian is answerable to Christ alone; each Christian is performing independent study of what Jesus said, and each Christian is free to agree or disagree with the message contained within.

Third, I brought the video here so that I might receive comments from fellow believers, asking "what about this?" I am not in some corner, attempting to attract a following, or make disciples for myself.

Finally, I have NEVER made a video concerning the subject of the Trinity Doctrine. Why? Because I am not interested in the subject or the division it causes.

On a side note, I find heretic hunting to be distasteful, especially considering current events. But the fundamentalists of the 1800's where not heretic hunters. These folks were separatists. These folks believed in the five fundamentals of the Christian faith, and they taught them from the pulpit. But they did not seek out others for the purpose of ridicule, shaming or punishment. They removed themselves from society, to form churches where they might freely believe and worship as conscience would dictate. Blessed are the peacemakers, Jesus said.

As I constantly say, I avoid discussions of the Trinity Doctrine or the Deity of Christ doctrine. Why? Is it because I am ashamed of my own beliefs or that I am unable to defend myself? No. For one thing, there are several discussions on the subject already in progress. If I was interested in defending my beliefs concerning that issue, I would enter into those discussions. I would expect that if anyone was interested in discussion 2 Peter chapter 3, he or she might enter this discussion.

So how do you know that I disagree with the Trinity Doctrine? Was I promoting my own views anywhere? No. I was asked a direct question and since I would never lie about what I believe, even in the face of heretic hunters, I answered truthfully, or at least what I believe to be true.

I hope you enjoyed the video and found it helpful to your own studies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is common knowledge, and sense, that it means it will be completely unexpected; it will creep up on the world.

Does that sound like a thousand year event to you?

What is unexpected and catching anybody off guard about a thousand year event?

Whatever organization, church or whatever, that has you so confident in your positions on things is about as corrupt as it could possibly be. You are prideful in your disregard for God's Word, but He laughs at your pride.

Those who disregard plain Scripture, no matter their numbers, or organization, are like dust in the wind. The vast majority of big name pastors and preachers in the spotlight today are utterly corrupt in their teaching, and explanations, of God's Word.

Humble yourself, pray for forgiveness and study the Bible on your own for a few years, paying very close attention to exactly what it says.

For the sake of this thread, I am going to ignore your personal attack* on me and answer the original question.

Question: does the phrase "like a thief in the night" refer to expectancy? Yes, and no. The phrase is not meant to speak to the outlook. The likelihood of Jesus' coming is never in doubt. The phrase speaks to the unpredictability of the event. As Jesus said, "You will not know the hour when he comes." It isn't as if we don't expect Jesus to come. But we are in danger of being caught unaware when he does arrive. He advises his followers to be ready, and remain alert. We are to remain on watch and not go to sleep, so to speak. Paul also exhorts his readers to be ready and prepare for his coming.

Question: Is the Second Advent a thousand year event? In a sense, Yes. But let's be clear about the meaning associated with the Greek word "parousia", which is commonly translated "coming." Consider the following entry from Bible Hub,

3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).​

The Second Coming is sometimes called the "Second Advent" or the "Parousia" in Greek. And the Greeks used the term in a technical way to speak about the arrival of a king. If the world is destroyed upon his arrival, then he will be unable to fulfill his "parousia" -- his presence. He intends to come and make his presence known. He intends to triumphantly enter the city of Jerusalem and take up residence in the temple complex and rule over the nations.

This video is very old, so the quality might not be up to my current standards.

____________________
* So this is your argument? Anyone who fails to agree with you is corrupt and associated with a corrupt organization? In my observation, those who lack confidence in a particular position, or can't actually argue for a particular position, attack the man himself instead. You question my ethics and my reliability rather than defending your own view. Why would you take this route? Is your position so weak?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus Destroys "All" The Wicked, Not Some But "All" When He Is Revealed, Read It Again And Again!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus is talking about the coming of the Son of Man, which is a technical term which derives meaning from 2 Samuel 7, Psalm 8 and Daniel 7. Consider Daniel 7:26-27

26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
​

This picture of the coming of the son of man, not only includes judgment, it also includes dominion over all dominions and the dominions of all the earth are given to the saints of the highest one.

 

[Truth7t7]

And was that a global destruction or some cities? You always misuse that verse when anyone that knows the story will know it is not a global killing.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.