2 Thessalonians 1:8

[Marymog]

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

The implication of the verse is if one does not want to be lost in flaming fire facing God's vengeance then one must obey the gospel of Christ.

Or, is it possible, that the implication of that verse could be that they shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power?

Curious Mary

 

[Enoch111]

How does one obey the historical events of the gospel, that is, obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

To obey the Gospel is to obey God and do what He says in order to be saved. So one is not obeying "historical events" but the everlasting God. BIG DIFFERENCE.

1. God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent...

2. God COMMANDS all men to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Jn 3:23)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

3. This is called "the obedience of faith" and is a commandment of God (Rom 16:26)
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith...

 

[bbyrd009]

"The saved" will be the ones who have conditionally obeyed the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8.

but you did not address the post you quoted wadr EB

 

[LC627]

In Acts 10, was Cornelius saved or unsaved before he / his household was baptized?

Look was Peter says in Acts 11:16-17..."And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift He gave us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If that is what you want to believe according to scripture, fine; but to me according to scripture baptism is by obedience after we are born again, which means we have repented and been filled with the Spirit. Many never repent and are baptized to join a denomination. That is not true baptism.

1 Peter 3:
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Do you see the phrase "filth of the flesh"? That is the old man that produced sins of the flesh which requires repentance. So baptism is not to kill the old man as you believe, but is in response to when you are already in good conscience.

Water baptism is-
--how one is born again
--how one obeys the gospel of Christ to avoid flaming fire. Again, water baptism is where one dies, is buried and raised up (obey the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8. This obeying the gospel of Chrsit in dyhing, being buried and resurrected does NOT take place by saying a "sinner's prayer", it does NOT take place with "faith only" but it occurs only when one is water baptized.

Again, in Rom 6 Paul has one baptized BEFORE one walks in newness of life (born again).


In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter is saying water baptism saves.

The OT type to NT anti-type Peter makes is:

verse 20---type--- ----eight souls were saved by water...saved by water (flood)
verse 21--anti-type--- baptism doth also now save us....saved by water (baptism)

..with the anti-type being a mirror reflection of the type.

When Peter says " (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)" Peter tells us what water baptism is NOT for, it is not for taking a bath and putting away filth of the flesh but water baptism is the answer whereby one can have a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2, Peter convicted those Jews of crucifying the Messiah and it pricked them in their hearts, ie, that conviction of sin bothered their conscience to the point they asked Peter 'what shall we do?'. Peter's 'answer' for their guilty conscience of sin was to be baptized for remission of sins. Therefore in having their sins remitted in water baptism then they could have a good conscience towards God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Only sinless people can obey.

No verse in the Bible says such.

Again those in Acts 2 were lost, dead spiritually in sin and commanded to repent and be baptized and able to obey that command. What point was Peter's command in verse 38 if he already knew those sinner's he was preaching to could not obey it?

And there is no NT example of a person being sinless BEFORE he obeys the will of God. As long as one continues to disobeys God's will one continues to serve unto death, Rom 6:16. It is not until one first obeys THEN he can be righteous..."obedienceUNTO righteousness"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Or, is it possible, that the implication of that verse could be that they shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power?

Curious Mary

The reason given as to why they will be in flaming fire is for 1) not knowing God 2) not obeying the gospel of Christ. The logical implication is for one to be saved (not be in flaming fire) is one must know God and obey the gospel of Christ.

 

[Marymog]

The reason given as to why they will be in flaming fire is for 1) not knowing God 2) not obeying the gospel of Christ. The logical implication is for one to be saved (not be in flaming fire) is one must know God and obey the gospel of Christ.

Thank you Mr. Bass.

Are you saying it is not possible that the implication of that verse could be that they shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power?

Mary

 

[LC627]

Water baptism is-
--how one is born again
--how one obeys the gospel of Christ to avoid flaming fire. Again, water baptism is where one dies, is buried and raised up (obey the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8. This obeying the gospel of Chrsit in dyhing, being buried and resurrected does NOT take place by saying a "sinner's prayer", it does NOT take place with "faith only" but it occurs only when one is water baptized.

Again, in Rom 6 Paul has one baptized BEFORE one walks in newness of life (born again).


In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter is saying water baptism saves.

The OT type to NT anti-type Peter makes is:

verse 20---type--- ----eight souls were saved by water...saved by water (flood)
verse 21--anti-type--- baptism doth also now save us....saved by water (baptism)

..with the anti-type being a mirror reflection of the type.

When Peter says " (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)" Peter tells us what water baptism is NOT for, it is not for taking a bath and putting away filth of the flesh but water baptism is the answer whereby one can have a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2, Peter convicted those Jews of crucifying the Messiah and it pricked them in their hearts, ie, that conviction of sin bothered their conscience to the point they asked Peter 'what shall we do?'. Peter's 'answer' for their guilty conscience of sin was to be baptized for remission of sins. Therefore in having their sins remitted in water baptism then they could have a good conscience towards God.

To be born again "born from above" that is done by the Holy Spirit.
John 3:6 -Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And this is through the Living Word of God.
1 Peter 1:23 -For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Faith is what justifies us before God and one of the clearest passages in the Bible is the "word of faith which we are preaching" (Rom.10:8) In verses 9,10 it is clear where salvation occurs. One makes the confession that "Jesus is Lord" and righteousness results from a believing heart. That is the message (word of faith) that the Apostles were preaching!

We come into contact with the blood of Jesus through faith.
Romans 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

To obey the Gospel is to obey God and do what He says in order to be saved. So one is not obeying "historical events" but the everlasting God. BIG DIFFERENCE.

1. God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent...

2. God COMMANDS all men to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Jn 3:23)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

3. This is called "the obedience of faith" and is a commandment of God (Rom 16:26)
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith...

One must believe to be saved, (John 8:24) but belief by itself does not saved.
One must repent to be saved (Luke 13:3) but repentance itself does not save.
One must confess to be saved (Matt 10:32-33) but confession does not save.
One must be water baptized to be saved (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38) and water baptism is the point God saves, that He cuts away the body of sin, Col 2:12-13. And from Romans 6 water baptism there is a death, burial and resurrection which is a form of the gospel of Christ's death burial and resurrection. Therefore belief only is not obeying the gospel, repentance only is not obeying the gospel, confession only is not obeying the gospel but water baptism is the ONLY place were a death, burial and resurrection takes place whereby one obeys the gospel of Christ.

Ever notices how the NIV perverts Romans 10:10?

Romans 10:10 KJV "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10:10 NIV "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Notice how the KJV correctly shows that one believeth UNTO righteousness and confession is UNTO salvation. Belief and confession are UNTO salvation in that they lead one towards salvation but they do not save by themselves. The NIV, in trying to push Luther's faith only-ism, tries to get Rom 10:10 to say one is saved at the moment of believing and saved again at the moment of confession. It errs in having one being saved twice instead of correctly showing both belief and confession LEADS one TOWARDS salvation. It is water baptism being the point God has chosen to save men and not a belief or at confession for again these two things leads one toward salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In Acts 10, was Cornelius saved or unsaved before he / his household was baptized?

Look was Peter says in Acts 11:16-17..."And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift He gave us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way."

After the Jews were saved in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 the Apostles meet in Jerusalem to discuss if the Gentiles have to be circumised to be saved, Acts 15:1-2. Of course they determined the Gentiles do not have to be circumcised to be saved and during this meeting Peter says in Acts 15:11 ASV "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)."

Therefore Jews and Gentiles are saved in a "like manner" way.

In Acts 2:38 the Jews were saved by being commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.
In Acts 10:47-48 the Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

So that "like manner" way Jews and Gentiles are saved is water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Just the fact water baptism was commanded to both Jews and Gentiles makes it necessary if for no other reason for one cannot be saved while directly disobeying a command of God.

Therefore baptism with the Holy Ghost is NOT the like manner way Jews and Gentiles are saved:
1) no verse says baptism with the HG saves/remits sins
2) only the Apostles in Acts 2 were baptized with the HS
3) there is no death burial and resurrection (gospel of Christ) that takes place with baptism with the HS hence water baptism is how one obeys the gospel.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thank you Mr. Bass.

Are you saying it is not possible that the implication of that verse could be that they shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power?

Mary

2 Thess 1:8
"in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

It is not just possible but it is a certainty that those who know not God and obey not the gospel of Christ will be lost in flaming fire.

So the logical implication for one to be saved (not burn in flaming fire) is to "obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Meaning obedience is necessary for one to be saved (Hebrews 5:9)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

but you did not address the post you quoted wadr EB

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The implication of 2 Thess 1:8 is that one must obey the gospel of Christ to be saved (not burn in flaming fire) hence a faithful obedience to the Lord's will is necessary to be saved.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Water baptism is-
--how one is born again
--how one obeys the gospel of Christ to avoid flaming fire. Again, water baptism is where one dies, is buried and raised up (obey the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8. This obeying the gospel of Chrsit in dyhing, being buried and resurrected does NOT take place by saying a "sinner's prayer", it does NOT take place with "faith only" but it occurs only when one is water baptized.

Again, in Rom 6 Paul has one baptized BEFORE one walks in newness of life (born again).


In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter is saying water baptism saves.

The OT type to NT anti-type Peter makes is:

verse 20---type--- ----eight souls were saved by water...saved by water (flood)
verse 21--anti-type--- baptism doth also now save us....saved by water (baptism)

..with the anti-type being a mirror reflection of the type.

When Peter says " (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)" Peter tells us what water baptism is NOT for, it is not for taking a bath and putting away filth of the flesh but water baptism is the answer whereby one can have a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2, Peter convicted those Jews of crucifying the Messiah and it pricked them in their hearts, ie, that conviction of sin bothered their conscience to the point they asked Peter 'what shall we do?'. Peter's 'answer' for their guilty conscience of sin was to be baptized for remission of sins. Therefore in having their sins remitted in water baptism then they could have a good conscience towards God.

You don't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit from baptism, but from repentance. Cornelius and his household received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then they baptized them in water.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

To be born again "born from above" that is done by the Holy Spirit.
John 3:6 -Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

John is showing the difference between the spiritual birth (born again) and the physical birth. Of curse the new birth has nothing to do with the physical birth but one is born again when one is water baptized, John 3:5. Later in the context we see what Jesus meant by being born of water when He attends John baptizing men with water, John 3:22-23

And this is through the Living Word of God.
1 Peter 1:23 -For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

From John 3:5 we see there is one birth that consists of of elements: 1) spirit and 2) water.

The role of water in the new birth is water baptism.

The role of the Spirit in the new birth is His written word. The Spirit is the author of the word and that word instructs men on how to be saved by being water baptism therefore the Spirit thru His word begets men who obey the word:

You quote 1 Peter 1:23 that says men have been born again through the word of God.
James says "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,.." James 1:18
Paul said to the Corinthians " I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor 4:15) and it is the written gospel of the HS that commands men to be water baptized and those who are baptized have been 'begotten thru the gospel'. It is the word of the HS that operates on the human heart (the word pricked the hearts of those in Acts 2). So the role of the Spirit in the new birth is planting the seed (the word of God) in the heart beginning the process of conversion.

Faith is what justifies us before God and one of the clearest passages in the Bible is the "word of faith which we are preaching" (Rom.10:8) In verses 9,10 it is clear where salvation occurs. One makes the confession that "Jesus is Lord" and righteousness results from a believing heart. That is the message (word of faith) that the Apostles were preaching!

Faith justifies NOT faith only James 2:24

Romans 5:1------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies
Romans 6:17-18-----obey from the heart>>>>>>> justified (freed from sin)
James 2:24-----------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be saved (justified) no alternatives and the Bible does not contradict itself then the implication is that the faith of Rom 5: that justifies is obedience from the heart to that form of doctrine and obedient work in doing the will of God according to James.

From a earlier post of mine in this thread showing how the NIV perverts Romans 10:10:

Ever notices how the NIV perverts Romans 10:10?

Romans 10:10 KJV "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10:10 NIV "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Notice how the KJV correctly shows that one believeth UNTO righteousness and confession is UNTO salvation. Belief and confession are UNTOsalvation in that they lead one towards salvation but they do not save by themselves. The NIV, in trying to push Luther's faith only-ism, tries to get Rom 10:10 to say one is saved at the moment of believing and saved again at the moment of confession. It errs in having one being saved twice instead of correctly showing both belief and confession LEADS one TOWARDS salvation. It is water baptism being the point God has chosen to save men and not a belief or at confession for again these two things leads one toward salvation.

We come into contact with the blood of Jesus through faith.
Romans 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-

Eph 2:8------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then a NT faith must include baptism.

Since NT faith includes being water baptized and water baptism is how one contacts the blood of Christ:

--Revelation 1:5 John says Christ " washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
--That blood that washes away sins was shed in Christ's death, John 19:34

So we must have access into Christ's death where He shed his blood in order to contact that blood so it can wash away sins.

By no coincidence, Paul says in Romans 6 that it is water baptism where one is baptized into the death of Christ. And being baptized into His death one contacts His blood in water baptism where sins are remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The implication of 2 Thess 1:8 is that one must obey the gospel of Christ to be saved (not burn in flaming fire) hence a faithful obedience to the Lord's will is necessary to be saved.

yet i see Christ in there with Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah see, and none of them appear to be burning up at all, don't even smell like smoke or anything? We all go to the same place just like the Bible says i guess, EB

 

[Marymog]

2 Thess 1:8
"in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

It is not just possible but it is a certainty that those who know not God and obey not the gospel of Christ will be lost in flaming fire.

So the logical implication for one to be saved (not burn in flaming fire) is to "obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Meaning obedience is necessary for one to be saved (Hebrews 5:9)

I find it fascinating that you can't eve agree with the Scripture verse you are quoting:

2 Thessalonians 1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

mary

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You don't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit from baptism, but from repentance. Cornelius and his household received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then they baptized them in water.

Baptism with the HS had nothing to do with the personal salvation of Cornelius.
--The Jews in Acts 2 were not baptized the HS.
--Nowhere does the Bible say baptism with the HS saves/remits sins.
--Nowhere does the Bible say that a death burial and resurrection (obeying the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8) takes place with baptism with the HS.

Therefore baptism with the HS is NOT the "like manner" way Jews and Gentiles are saved per Acts 15:11. Baptism with the HS was a prophecy of Joel that the Lord fulfilled bringing that baptism to an end in Acts 10. (Fulfill meaning to bring to an end, to cease)

 

[farouk]

You don't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit from baptism, but from repentance. Cornelius and his household received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then they baptized them in water.

Good to remember that the Spirit comes spiritually. Romans 8 even says that 'if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of His': in other words, the Spirit indwells from the moment we are born again.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

yet i see Christ in there with Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah see, and none of them appear to be burning up at all, don't even smell like smoke or anything? We all go to the same place just like the Bible says i guess, EB

They lived under the OT law that did not have water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins hence those that live before Acts 2:38 are not accountable to it like we today are who live after it.

The flaming fire in 2 Thess 1:8 refers to being lost eternally in hell fire and has nothing to do with the fire in the furnace those men were thrown in to.