2 Thessalonians 1:8

[bbyrd009]

They lived under the OT law that did not have water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins hence those that live before Acts 2:38 are not accountable to it like we today are who live after it.

The flaming fire in 2 Thess 1:8 refers to being lost eternally in hell fire and has nothing to do with the fire in the furnace those men were thrown in to.

ah ok, ty EB
you're absolutely sure about all that right

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I find it fascinating that you can't eve agree with the Scripture verse you are quoting:

2 Thessalonians 1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

mary

I have been consistent on all I have posted.
It is those that reject the necessity of water baptism that are rejecting "obeying the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8 per 1 Cor 15:3-4)" that keeps one out of flaming fire.
There is a death burial and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized (Romans 6) and this form of the gospel of CHrist's death burial and resurrection takes place nowhere but in water baptism.

 

[Dave L]

No verse in the Bible says such.

Again those in Acts 2 were lost, dead spiritually in sin and commanded to repent and be baptized and able to obey that command. What point was Peter's command in verse 38 if he already knew those sinner's he was preaching to could not obey it?

And there is no NT example of a person being sinless BEFORE he obeys the will of God. As long as one continues to disobeys God's will one continues to serve unto death, Rom 6:16. It is not until one first obeys THEN he can be righteous..."obedienceUNTO righteousness"

How can sin become righteousness of it's own self when it can do nothing but sin?

 

[Marymog]

I have been consistent on all I have posted.
It is those that reject the necessity of water baptism that are rejecting "obeying the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8 per 1 Cor 15:3-4)" that keeps one out of flaming fire.
There is a death burial and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized (Romans 6) and this form of the gospel of CHrist's death burial and resurrection takes place nowhere but in water baptism.

Dear friend. I never said you have not been consistent in all that you have posted. Consistency does not equal accuracy.

You stated that the implication of the verse (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is that if one does not want to be lost in flaming fire facing God's vengeance then one must obey the gospel of Christ.

I simply asked you if the implication of that verse was possibly that they shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power....WHICH IS THE NEXT VERSE, VERSE #9.

Verse #9 clearly IMPLIES what will happen. You couldn't even agree with it. Instead you kept reverting to your bloviating. My point is, Scripture must be taken in context. Not cherry picked.

Mary

 

[ScottA]

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

The implication of the verse is if one does not want to be lost in flaming fire facing God's vengeance then one must obey the gospel of Christ.

What is the gospel of Christ and how does one obey that gospel?

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Paul says the gospel he preached was the DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTON of Christ.

How does one obey the historical events of the gospel, that is, obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."

When one is water baptized, the old man of sin DIES being BURIED in a watery grave and then RAISED UP FROM (resurrected) from that watery grave to walk in newness of life (born again). This death, burial and resurrection does not happen when one says a sinner's prayer or when one has faith alone but happens only when one humbly submits himself to the will of God in water baptism where God does the work in cutting away the body of sin, (Col 2).

Romans 6:17-18
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

The word 'form" (typo) means a pattern, an example. That form of doctrine those Jewish coverts in Rome had obeyed from the heart was water baptism with water baptism being a form, a pattern of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Having obeyed God's will to be water baptized (form of Christ's death, burial and resurrection) then they were made free from sin (justified) having had their sins forgiven/remitted/the body of sin cut away by God.

I like it...

But you are putting too much emphasis on water baptism. Not because one should not do it, but because it is the baptism of John and only symbolic of the baptism of Christ, which is of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Marymog]

I like it...

But you are putting too much emphasis on water baptism. Not because one should not do it, but because it is the baptism of John and only symbolic of the baptism of Christ, which is of the Holy Spirit.

Dear Scott, Please explain how a symbol washes away sin and saves you? Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16

Why would Jesus instruct his Apostles to baptize if it is just a symbol? Matthew 28:19

Furthermore we are to observe all that He has commanded of us (Matthew 28:20). Are you saying Jesus is commanding us to partake in a symbolic public ceremony that does nothing?

Curious Mary

 

[ScottA]

Dear Scott, Please explain how a symbol washes away sin and saves you? Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16

Why would Jesus instruct his Apostles to baptize if it is just a symbol? Matthew 28:19

Furthermore we are to observe all that He has commanded of us (Matthew 28:20). Are you saying Jesus is commanding us to partake in a symbolic public ceremony that does nothing?

Curious Mary

I was not saying a symbol washes away sin, just the opposite. That is the point, John baptized with water which was for Israel alone, of whom Christ was the Last. Now, and all others, must be baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is sent by Christ. So, the tradition has remained, but the type of baptism needed for the remission of sins, has changed.

 

[LC627]

John is showing the difference between the spiritual birth (born again) and the physical birth. Of curse the new birth has nothing to do with the physical birth but one is born again when one is water baptized, John 3:5. Later in the context we see what Jesus meant by being born of water when He attends John baptizing men with water, John 3:22-23



From John 3:5 we see there is one birth that consists of of elements: 1) spirit and 2) water.

The role of water in the new birth is water baptism.

The role of the Spirit in the new birth is His written word. The Spirit is the author of the word and that word instructs men on how to be saved by being water baptism therefore the Spirit thru His word begets men who obey the word:

You quote 1 Peter 1:23 that says men have been born again through the word of God.
James says "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,.." James 1:18
Paul said to the Corinthians " I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor 4:15) and it is the written gospel of the HS that commands men to be water baptized and those who are baptized have been 'begotten thru the gospel'. It is the word of the HS that operates on the human heart (the word pricked the hearts of those in Acts 2). So the role of the Spirit in the new birth is planting the seed (the word of God) in the heart beginning the process of conversion.




Faith justifies NOT faith only James 2:24

Romans 5:1------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies
Romans 6:17-18-----obey from the heart>>>>>>> justified (freed from sin)
James 2:24-----------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be saved (justified) no alternatives and the Bible does not contradict itself then the implication is that the faith of Rom 5: that justifies is obedience from the heart to that form of doctrine and obedient work in doing the will of God according to James.

From a earlier post of mine in this thread showing how the NIV perverts Romans 10:10:

Ever notices how the NIV perverts Romans 10:10?

Romans 10:10 KJV "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10:10 NIV "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

Notice how the KJV correctly shows that one believeth UNTO righteousness and confession is UNTO salvation. Belief and confession are UNTOsalvation in that they lead one towards salvation but they do not save by themselves. The NIV, in trying to push Luther's faith only-ism, tries to get Rom 10:10 to say one is saved at the moment of believing and saved again at the moment of confession. It errs in having one being saved twice instead of correctly showing both belief and confession LEADS one TOWARDS salvation. It is water baptism being the point God has chosen to save men and not a belief or at confession for again these two things leads one toward salvation.




Eph 2:8------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then a NT faith must include baptism.

Since NT faith includes being water baptized and water baptism is how one contacts the blood of Christ:

--Revelation 1:5 John says Christ " washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
--That blood that washes away sins was shed in Christ's death, John 19:34

So we must have access into Christ's death where He shed his blood in order to contact that blood so it can wash away sins.

By no coincidence, Paul says in Romans 6 that it is water baptism where one is baptized into the death of Christ. And being baptized into His death one contacts His blood in water baptism where sins are remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ.

Water and Spirit in John is not about baptism, the NT example of baptism was not yet established. This is seen in Jesus saying to Nicodemus, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things" Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what He was saying. It is a reference to Ezekiel 36:24-27:

'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

John 4:14 -but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 7:38,39 - Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

 

[Marymog]

I was not saying a symbol washes away sin, just the opposite. That is the point, John baptized with water which was for Israel alone, of whom Christ was the Last. Now, and all others, must be baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is sent by Christ. So, the tradition has remained, but the type of baptism needed for the remission of sins, has changed.

I am trying to understand. What does “the type of baptism needed for the remission of sins, has changed” mean?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

I am trying to understand. What does “the type of baptism needed for the remission of sins, has changed” mean?

Mary

Water baptism was symbolic leading up to the coming of Christ (and still is symbolic). After Christ "saving" baptism is by Christ who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (according to John the baptist). Before Christ being baptized in the Holy Spirit was not possible, only after and by Christ. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the only "saving" baptism, i.e., only through Christ can one be saved, whose baptism is by the Holy Spirit.

 

[friend of]

One obeys the gospel by putting your faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for salvation and you endeavor to live life in such a way that imitates Christ with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

 

[friend of]

Water baptism is only a shadow of the reality of true regeneration.

 

[brakelite]

My testimony is that I woke up one morning a completely changed newly born child of God. Why? Because the evening before I asked God to make me a person He would be proud to attach His name to. I was baptised about 2 months later...in obedience to Jesus, as a public affirmation of my commitment to the faith, and of the change already wrought in me by the holy Spirit.
I will testify to that for all eternity, giving God the glory and thanking Him every day for the miracle He wrought that night, and the Spirit and power He granted me to take the next step in obedience and humility. And no-one will ever convince me that nothing happened that night. That it was two months later when I was saved. No. Let me tell you a little secret. I ain't even saved yet. Not until I kneel in awe before the very throne of the Most High will I be so bold as to declare my salvation. Sure, I fully accept God's promises. Every one of them. I have absolutely no doubt in His power to finish the work He began that one night 42 years ago. I know who God is, and what He is like. But I also know what I can be like. I know that human beings are virulent moral viruses that do not always get everything right. We are apt to wander. And history is replete with folk who once knew the truth, but forsook everything they believed in for temporary worldly fame and riches, only to die with no faith and no hope.
Which is why Jesus warned His disciples, and us, to remain firmly cleaving to Him. Attached to the Vine. There is our safety. Our security. Our salvation lies in our remaining in Christ. Not in our obedience...not in our works...not in baptism...but solely in our being one with Him and the Father. Then, obedience and works become the fruit which shall grow as a result of being attached to the Vine. There is our calling. There is our salvation. "For this is life eternal. That they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou didst send."

 

[Marymog]

Water baptism was symbolic leading up to the coming of Christ (and still is symbolic). After Christ "saving" baptism is by Christ who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (according to John the baptist). Before Christ being baptized in the Holy Spirit was not possible, only after and by Christ. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the only "saving" baptism, i.e., only through Christ can one be saved, whose baptism is by the Holy Spirit.

Thank you.

I guess your confusing me when you say baptism "was" symbolic leading up to the coming of Christ and then you say it "still is symbolic". What you are really saying is that baptism has always been symbolic before the coming and after the coming of Christ? Do you think the "symbolic" action of water baptism does anything to a person?

One more thing you said that is confusing me: You said, baptism is by Christ who baptizes with the Holy Spirit "according to John the Baptist". When Jesus said baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) wouldn't that instruction of baptizing with the Holy Spirit be "according to Jesus" also and not just John the Baptist?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Thank you.

I guess your confusing me when you say baptism "was" symbolic leading up to the coming of Christ and then you say it "still is symbolic". What you are really saying is that baptism has always been symbolic before the coming and after the coming of Christ? Do you think the "symbolic" action of water baptism does anything to a person?

One more thing you said that is confusing me: You said, baptism is by Christ who baptizes with the Holy Spirit "according to John the Baptist". When Jesus said baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) wouldn't that instruction of baptizing with the Holy Spirit be "according to Jesus" also and not just John the Baptist?

Mary

The symbolic water baptism does give a person a sense of commitment and also makes a public announcement.

Yes, "according to Jesus" is correct. But it was first announced by John, which makes Jesus' fulfillment of it a matter of things foretold.

 

[Marymog]

The symbolic water baptism does give a person a sense of commitment and also makes a public announcement.

Yes, "according to Jesus" is correct. But it was first announced by John, which makes Jesus' fulfillment of it a matter of things foretold.

You say water baptism gives a person a sense of commitment.

Scripture says water baptism saves and is for remission of sins.

Scripture CLEARLY says that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Even if one wants to pretend that baptism is a symbol are we not still supposed to do what Jesus told us to do? Baptize/ be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Scott, in your opinion, what happens if you don’t do what Jesus tells you to do and perform this symbolic public announcement?


Scott, if water baptism is just a symbol and water does nothing, then why are we instructed to pray for one another? After all prayers are just words or thoughts in our head. Are our prayers for healing and forgiveness of sins just a public announcement of what we want? Our prayers don't really mean anything since they are just words? Can words and thoughts really do anything? After all, according to your theory, we know that water can't do anything. Why are Church elders instructed to use oil on the sick? After all, it’s just oil!! Oil really can’t do anything since it's just a symbol? Why are we instructed to use oil?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

You say water baptism gives a person a sense of commitment.

Scripture says water baptism saves and is for remission of sins.

Scripture CLEARLY says that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Even if one wants to pretend that baptism is a symbol are we not still supposed to do what Jesus told us to do? Baptize/ be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Scott, in your opinion, what happens if you don’t do what Jesus tells you to do and perform this symbolic public announcement?

Scott, if water baptism is just a symbol and water does nothing, then why are we instructed to pray for one another? After all prayers are just words or thoughts in our head. Are our prayers for healing and forgiveness of sins just a public announcement of what we want? Our prayers don't really mean anything since they are just words? Can words and thoughts really do anything? After all, according to your theory, we know that water can't do anything. Why are Church elders instructed to use oil on the sick? After all, it’s just oil!! Oil really can’t do anything since it's just a symbol? Why are we instructed to use oil?

Mary

CLEARLY you are not taking into account Peter's clarification about water baptism, wherein he refers to what it means or symbolizes rather than the act itself.

Indeed, we should do as Jesus said to do. But we should only do so with understanding...which is, that we understand that He "baptizes with the Holy Spirit" and not with water as John did.

This is not about our prayers for one another.

We are instructed to maintain certain traditions and symbols for the sake of those who are just coming to know God and do not yet know that these things are just a foreshadowing of what is to come and those things that we are to enter into with God in spirit, even "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ." That's what the symbols are: elementary. But we are to "press on to the prize" which is not of these "beggarly elements", but of the spirit of God.

You see, I now am declaring to you new revelations of that which was before written but "not perceived" or understood...just as God has foretold and ordained. Did you not notice that I have been quoting all this time, those things that were once only written?

 

[Marymog]

Indeed, we should do as Jesus said to do. But we should only do so with understanding...which is, that we understand that He "baptizes with the Holy Spirit" and not with water as John did............You see, I now am declaring to you new revelations of that which was before written but "not perceived" or understood...just as God has foretold and ordained. Did you not notice that I have been quoting all this time, those things that were once only written?

Dear Scott,

Scripture and the earliest of Christian writings make it clear that WATER was used in the baptism of Christians. Who taught you otherwise? You should run far from that person for they are a false teacher.

You aren't declaring any "new revelations" to me. What are declaring are your opinions/theories which are not backed up by Scripture or Christian History. What you are "declaring" is heretical.

Mary

 

[farouk]

Dear Scott,

Scripture and the earliest of Christian writings make it clear that WATER was used in the baptism of Christians. Who taught you otherwise? You should run far from that person for they are a false teacher.

You aren't declaring any "new revelations" to me. What are declaring are your opinions/theories which are not backed up by Scripture or Christian History. What you are "declaring" is heretical.

Mary

On the contrary, I think you are not following Scripture. The New Birth in John 3 does not mention baptism.

 

[ScottA]

Dear Scott,

Scripture and the earliest of Christian writings make it clear that WATER was used in the baptism of Christians. Who taught you otherwise? You should run far from that person for they are a false teacher.

You aren't declaring any "new revelations" to me. What are declaring are your opinions/theories which are not backed up by Scripture or Christian History. What you are "declaring" is heretical.

Mary

You have a wacky way of looking at things.

I gave you the scriptures clearly showing John's baptism being of water and Jesus' baptism being with the Holy Spirit, which alone establishes the fact that water baptism remains only symbolic.

I got that from the scriptures. According to you...I should run from God then?

I think we're done here.