2 Thessalonians 1:8

[Marymog]

On the contrary, I think you are not following Scripture. The New Birth in John 3 does not mention baptism.

According to your theory...... which is opposite of 2,000 years of Christian teachings and belief.

Sooooo entertain me. What is the water that Jesus is speaking of in John 3:5?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

You have a wacky way of looking at things.

I gave you the scriptures clearly showing John's baptism being of water and Jesus' baptism being with the Holy Spirit, which alone establishes the fact that water baptism remains only symbolic.

I got that from the scriptures. According to you...I should run from God then?

I think we're done here.

Dear friend,

Yup...when Jesus went into the water to be baptized he was only baptized with the Holy Spirit. That is EXACTLY what Scripture says

You got that from your TWISTING of Scripture. You didn't get it from God for if you did get it from God as you THINK you did then you are calling men greater than you (the Apostolic and ECF's) liars since their interpretation is OPPOSITE of yours.

I agree. We are done. I sincerely hope that no one falls for your heretical teachings as you have already fallen for someone else's. Or did you come up with this theory on your own? (no need to answer, it doesn't matter)

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Dear friend,

Yup...when Jesus went into the water to be baptized he was only baptized with the Holy Spirit. That is EXACTLY what Scripture says

You got that from your TWISTING of Scripture. You didn't get it from God for if you did get it from God as you THINK you did then you are calling men greater than you (the Apostolic and ECF's) liars since their interpretation is OPPOSITE of yours.

I agree. We are done. I sincerely hope that no one falls for your heretical teachings as you have already fallen for someone else's. Or did you come up with this theory on your own? (no need to answer, it doesn't matter)

Mary

Which just goes to show...you missed "the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him", or simply prefer the watered down version.

Twist and shout. I leave you to it.

 

[Marymog]

Which just goes to show...you missed "the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him", or simply prefer the watered down version.

Twist and shout. I leave you to it.

Hi. Are you Phil Medley or Bert Berns? (get it )

Nope. Didn't miss anything. I clearly said "when Jesus went into the water to be baptized he was only baptized with the Holy Spirit" and that statement was clearly making jest of your theory that only the Spirit was involved. If you didn't understand that jest then, you should now.

I, Marymog, referenced the water AND the Holy Spirit. You are PRETENDING only the Spirit was involved in this.

Remember Scott, one must be born of WATER and Spirit, not just Spirit, just like Jesus said. Are you going to deny that part of Scripture also?

Why are you afraid to tell me who is teaching you these false teachings? Are you embarrassed?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Hi. Are you Phil Medley or Bert Berns? (get it )

Nope. Didn't miss anything. I clearly said "when Jesus went into the water to be baptized he was only baptized with the Holy Spirit" and that statement was clearly making jest of your theory that only the Spirit was involved. If you didn't understand that jest then, you should now.

I, Marymog, referenced the water AND the Holy Spirit. You are PRETENDING only the Spirit was involved in this.

Remember Scott, one must be born of WATER and Spirit, not just Spirit, just like Jesus said. Are you going to deny that part of Scripture also?

Why are you afraid to tell me who is teaching you these false teachings? Are you embarrassed?

Mary

I have told you already, but you don't believe me.

As for your reference to water birth...is there anyone born, who is not born of water? You are talking nonsense, reaching for straws.

 

[Marymog]

I have told you already, but you don't believe me.

As for your reference to water birth...is there anyone born, who is not born of water? You are talking nonsense, reaching for straws.

Of course I don't believe you. I don't fall for false teachings.

I didn't' reference water birth. Please don't twist my words like you twist scripture. I referenced the words of Jesus when he was talking about baptism (being born of water and Spirit).

Who is your teacher? Why are you afraid/embarrased to reveal them?

Curious Mary

 

[ScottA]

Of course I don't believe you. I don't fall for false teachings.

I didn't' reference water birth. Please don't twist my words like you twist scripture. I referenced the words of Jesus when he was talking about baptism (being born of water and Spirit).

Who is your teacher? Why are you afraid/embarrased to reveal them?

Curious Mary

Oh...it's worse than I thought...you thought He was talking about being baptized instead of what He said (which was bring born).

And I see you had blinders on again and didn't see that I told you that I already told you where I got what I know.

 

[Marymog]

Oh...it's worse than I thought...you thought He was talking about being baptized instead of what He said (which was bring born).

And I see you had blinders on again and didn't see that I told you that I already told you where I got what I know.

Well, it is not only I who thought he was talking about being baptized. It was Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian to name a few who thought the same thing. Even your best friend Martin Luther disagrees with you. Are you suggesting your interpretation of Scripture more valid than the ECF's and the great Reformer?

Your in the same boat as Nicodemus. He thought Jesus was talking about birth water and Jesus said to him the same thing I say to you; do you not understand these things? Soooooo are you going to listen to Jesus, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Marymog or are you going to continue to listen to your false teacher.....of which are afraid to reveal to me. Why? Are you embarrassed by your teacher?

Furthermore, if you want to get your bible out, shake the dust off of it, you will see that the next thing Jesus does after he scolds you and Nicodemus for being so ignorant He and his disciples go out and baptize....with WATER. What, shut up. Jesus was practicing what he preached?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Well, it is not only I who thought he was talking about being baptized. It was Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian to name a few who thought the same thing. Even your best friend Martin Luther disagrees with you. Are you suggesting your interpretation of Scripture more valid than the ECF's and the great Reformer?

Your in the same boat as Nicodemus. He thought Jesus was talking about birth water and Jesus said to him the same thing I say to you; do you not understand these things? Soooooo are you going to listen to Jesus, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Marymog or are you going to continue to listen to your false teacher.....of which are afraid to reveal to me. Why? Are you embarrassed by your teacher?

Furthermore, if you want to get your bible out, shake the dust off of it, you will see that the next thing Jesus does after he scolds you and Nicodemus for being so ignorant He and his disciples go out and baptize....with WATER. What, shut up. Jesus was practicing what he preached?

Mary

Who?

I don't know any of those people. But, no, I am not suggesting any interpretation of scripture is correct. There is only one truth, and it is spirit in Christ, which, yes, I have.

Hahaha...no, it is you that is in the same camp as Nicodemus, thinking that any of His words (which are spirit) were about the things of the natural world: "That which is of the flesh, is flesh, and that which is of the spirit, is spirit."

Yes, they baptized with water...because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. But you would know that if you had actually read your bible instead of pointing fingers at me.

 

[ScottA]

Who?

I don't know any of those people. But, no, I am not suggesting any interpretation of scripture is correct. There is only one truth, and it is spirit in Christ, which, yes, I have.

Hahaha...no, it is you that is in the same camp as Nicodemus, thinking that any of His words (which are spirit) were about the things of the natural world: "That which is of the flesh, is flesh, and that which is of the spirit, is spirit."

Yes, they baptized with water...because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. But you would know that if you had actually read your bible instead of pointing fingers at me.

And so nasty.

 

[Marymog]

Who?

I don't know any of those people. But, no, I am not suggesting any interpretation of scripture is correct. There is only one truth, and it is spirit in Christ, which, yes, I have.

Hahaha...no, it is you that is in the same camp as Nicodemus, thinking that any of His words (which are spirit) were about the things of the natural world.

Yes, they baptized with water...because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. But you would know that if you had actually read your bible instead of pointing fingers at me.

Lol....OK Scott. You don't know the writings of any of "those people"? Even Martin Luther? Seriously? I don't understand why you feel the need to be dishonest right now. I have mentioned these great men to you before so to play dumb is dumb.

You know the writings of men who you are quoting but you don't know the greatest Christian theologians in history. Fascinating. Or dishonest?

I agree. There is only one Truth. I hope someday you recognize it. I am not pointing fingers at you (whatever that means in this case?). I am straight out telling you that you have a heretical belief in this matter. And you are to embarrassed to tell me from whom you got this heretical belief.

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Lol....OK Scott. You don't know the writings of any of "those people"? Even Martin Luther? Seriously? I don't understand why you feel the need to be dishonest right now. I have mentioned these great men to you before so to play dumb is dumb.

You know the writings of men who you are quoting but you don't know the greatest Christian theologians in history. Fascinating. Or dishonest?

I agree. There is only one Truth. I hope someday you recognize it. I am not pointing fingers at you (whatever that means in this case?). I am straight out telling you that you have a heretical belief in this matter. And you are to embarrassed to tell me from whom you got this heretical belief.

Mary

I told you before and I will tell you one last time: I do not know the writings of those men, nor am I quoting anyone but God in spirit and the scriptures.

Stop giving false testimony. It is a sin. And stop lying, your finger pointing and your personal false accusations are documented.

 

[Marymog]

I told you before and I will tell you one last time: I do not know the writings of those men, nor am I quoting anyone but God in spirit and the scriptures.

Stop giving false testimony. It is a sin. And stop lying, your finger pointing and your personal false accusations are documented.

I believe you when you say you don't know the writings of those men. Your ignorance of Christian history, the men of the shoulders you stand on who gave their lives for our faith and your ignorance of 2,000 years of Christian teaching is noted and documented.

Not only are you to embarrassed to reveal whom has been teaching you these false beliefs (I suspect you are self taught) but, buy your own admission, you aren't even scholarly enough or inquisitive enough to seek out theological opinions that are opposite of the ones in your own head. I sincerely hope you can overcome this weakness and lack of desire to learn so that you can someday grow to be a respected voice on this forum.

Mary

PS.....It is false testimony to suggest I gave false testimony, or made false accusations or that I am lying. You should be ashamed of yourself and you need to stop using unsubstantiated attacks against me to make yourself feel better. In the long run your lies catch up with you and you feel worse.

 

[ScottA]

For the truth:

Acts 19:1-8
"And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God."

 

[ScottA]

I believe you when you say you don't know the writings of those men. Your ignorance of Christian history, the men of the shoulders you stand on who gave their lives for our faith and your ignorance of 2,000 years of Christian teaching is noted and documented.

Not only are you to embarrassed to reveal whom has been teaching you these false beliefs (I suspect you are self taught) but, buy your own admission, you aren't even scholarly enough or inquisitive enough to seek out theological opinions that are opposite of the ones in your own head. I sincerely hope you can overcome this weakness and lack of desire to learn so that you can someday grow to be a respected voice on this forum.

Mary

PS.....It is false testimony to suggest I gave false testimony, or made false accusations or that I am lying. You should be ashamed of yourself and you need to stop using unsubstantiated attacks against me to make yourself feel better. In the long run your lies catch up with you and you feel worse.

Keep digging that hole. God knows.

Nonetheless, did Nehemiah stand on the shoulders of those who built before him? No, he repaired their rubble and ruin.

You don't know all you think you know, certainly not the scriptures.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My testimony is that I woke up one morning a completely changed newly born child of God. Why? Because the evening before I asked God to make me a person He would be proud to attach His name to. I was baptised about 2 months later...in obedience to Jesus, as a public affirmation of my commitment to the faith, and of the change already wrought in me by the holy Spirit.
I will testify to that for all eternity, giving God the glory and thanking Him every day for the miracle He wrought that night, and the Spirit and power He granted me to take the next step in obedience and humility. And no-one will ever convince me that nothing happened that night. That it was two months later when I was saved. No. Let me tell you a little secret. I ain't even saved yet. Not until I kneel in awe before the very throne of the Most High will I be so bold as to declare my salvation. Sure, I fully accept God's promises. Every one of them. I have absolutely no doubt in His power to finish the work He began that one night 42 years ago. I know who God is, and what He is like. But I also know what I can be like. I know that human beings are virulent moral viruses that do not always get everything right. We are apt to wander. And history is replete with folk who once knew the truth, but forsook everything they believed in for temporary worldly fame and riches, only to die with no faith and no hope.
Which is why Jesus warned His disciples, and us, to remain firmly cleaving to Him. Attached to the Vine. There is our safety. Our security. Our salvation lies in our remaining in Christ. Not in our obedience...not in our works...not in baptism...but solely in our being one with Him and the Father. Then, obedience and works become the fruit which shall grow as a result of being attached to the Vine. There is our calling. There is our salvation. "For this is life eternal. That they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou didst send."

Your "personal testimony" does not fit what the Bible says as to how one is saved. You CLAIM salvation is "not in our obedience". Can you show me from the NT gospel of a person who continued to be impenitently disobedient to the will of God but was saved anyway?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Water baptism is only a shadow of the reality of true regeneration.

Water baptism is a "form" (Romans 6:1-17) of the gospel (a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) and that form (water baptism) must be obeyed if one is not to be lost in flaming fire (2 Thessalonains 1:8).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

One obeys the gospel by putting your faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for salvation and you endeavor to live life in such a way that imitates Christ with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

What verse can you cite to back this statement up?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Water and Spirit in John is not about baptism, the NT example of baptism was not yet established. This is seen in Jesus saying to Nicodemus, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things" Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what He was saying. It is a reference to Ezekiel 36:24-27:

'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

John 4:14 -but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 7:38,39 - Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Jesus speaks of one new birth that consists of two elements: 1) water 2) Spirit

Later in John 3:23-24 we can easily see that Jesus means by "born of water" "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized." So 'born of water' in the immediate context of John 3 refers to water baptism as performed by John. John's baptism would be how one was born again before John's baptism was replaced by Christ's baptism of the great commission beginning in Acts 2. You cannot go to a remote text, [as in John 4 or elsewhere], where "water" is being used figuratively and then import that figurative meaning into the text of John 3:5. The 'water" of John 3:5 is literal just as 'water' in John 3:23 is literal...literal water and literal spirit compose the new birth.

Two points:

(1) from the context of John 3 we see Nicodemus had not experienced the new birth. Why? "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." Luke 7:30. Pharisees as Nicodemus rejected John's baptism and doing so they rejected the new birth. And anyone that rejected John's baptism would accountable themselves for that rejection.

Some claim John 3:5 refers to some baptism with the Holy Ghost. If that were the case then Nicodemus NOT being born again would be the Lord's fault and accountability for failing to "spirit baptism" Nicodemus. Yet water baptism has been commanded to men to obey and those that do not will be held accountable for their own decision and not what the Lord failed to do.

(2) John's baptism was later replaced by Christ's baptism of the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16) as to how men would be born again. With the Bible being its own best commentary, we can again easily see what Jesus meant by "born of water":

John 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-----------Spirit++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Titus 3:5-----------Holy Ghost+++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>saved

Three "born again" verses that have "water" equivalent to "baptized" which is equivalent to "laver of water". The Bible is truth and does not contradict itself going from one verse to another.

Lastly:

John 3:5-----------born of water and of the Spirit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter into the kingdom
Matthew 7:21------he that doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>>enters into the kingdom


Since there is just one way to be saved (enter the kingdom) then there has to be some definite connection between being "born of water and of Spirit" and "doing the will of the Father". Therefore being born again is a matter of "doing" on the part of man. God has commanded men to be water baptized and those that "do the will of the Father" in submitting to, obeying this command are the ones who are doing the will of the Father and are born again. There is no example in the NT gospel of one being born again by NOT doing the will of the Father.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I like it...

But you are putting too much emphasis on water baptism. Not because one should not do it, but because it is the baptism of John and only symbolic of the baptism of Christ, which is of the Holy Spirit.

John's baptism was replaced by the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission at Pentecost Acts 2. And Christ's baptism is a form of the gospel (death burial & resurrection of Christ) and this form of the gospel must be obeyed to be saved (avoid flaming fire) 2 Thess 1:8.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs twice in the NT, with the Apostles in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10. There is no form of the gospel (death burial & resurrection) that takes place when one was baptized with the HS, so baptism with the HS is NOT the way one obeys the gospel of Christ. Also baptism with the HS wa never commanded to anyone so it is not something that can be obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine. But since water baptism had been commanded it can be obeyed.