He was not a lone ranger. That is untrue. He was a people person. That is why He touched so many. Start by reading the 4 gospels and you will see who He really was and is.
23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!
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He was not a lone ranger. That is untrue. He was a people person. That is why He touched so many. Start by reading the 4 gospels and you will see who He really was and is.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
But you are not an apostle or ancinet prophet nor Jesus. YOU are a church member in particular.
And no a pastors job is not to evangelize. Teh bible is very specific what a pastors job is.
YOu hide behind the rejection of the ancients for your reinterpreted positions on the Scriptures. What people are rejecting are your commentaries because you simply rewrite the Scriptures with your allegorical retranslation. Don't mistake that with people harping on you for the Word of God. The Word of God is written and closed. God doesn't need you and hundreds of thousands of other editors who subtly tell all others this in some way: "I know this is what is written, but this is what God really meanst."
And sorry but that is exactly what you do.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I have not once said I reject it. but until you cite me some body who expounds this in some sort of text as a doctrine (and you know what I am referring to) please do not bother me with your blather.
I can cite and list for you all the doctrines that standard dispensationalists adhere to and how we derived them. I can give you names of textbooks of dispensational theology and cite you the best work on eschatology I have read in my 45 years of study on it.
This supposed "doctrine of corroboration" appears no where. We use corroboration as proof of mport but not as a must have. Many many things are written but once in Scripture and they are just as factual as the 1,000 year kingdom.
so until you cite me some text proving this hypotheitcal doctrine- I will remain silent. I am sorry I wrote another answer when I said I wouldn't.
LOL. I am not going to do your work for you. You will not have to look too far if you genuinely want to find out this info. This is a standard evangelical fundamental when it comes hermeneutics and an evidential imperative when it comes to law. It is instructed in God's Book as I have already showed you and you have already ducked around. Premils give lip-service to this important interpretative principle, even though they conveniently discard it when it comes to Revelation 20.
The fact you are even saying this exposes the faulty approach you have to Scripture. It shows your ignorance to safe and solid biblical hermeneutics. You waste your time on here promoting a doctrine with no proof text (Pretrib) and another doctrine (Premil) with zero corroboration. That is why you rubbish corroboration. That is why you have to argue what you do. Sadly, you are building your house on sand. You know how that ends up!
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Personal interpretation of a Scripture alone is untrustworthy. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scripture. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.
Deuteronomy 17:6: “At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.”
John 8:17-18: “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.”
We need to establish what is the consistent repeated testimony of the rest of Scripture on the said matter. We should always compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret it in the light of the full written counsel of God. The only sure way to interpret Scripture effectively is with other Scripture. Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture, not the human mind. 2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of strange teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” This important principle is outlined repeatedly both the OT and the NT.
This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”
God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So you make the claim and cannot cite anyone to back up your claim. Okay we are through then. I will only answer when you prove your claim. You declared it a doctrine- It is your job to prove your claims.
It shows that all you wish to do is attack and disparage other Christian who disagree with you . Unless of course you do not even think we premils can be saved like others have here.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So according ot you the following are not trustworthy because they are not corroborated by other Scriptures.
1. the raising of Lazarus.
2. the healing at the pool of Bethsaida
3. The woman with the issue.
4. The gentile woman healed
5. Jesus appearing in the locked room after his resurrection.
6. Jesus appearing to Mary in the Garden
And many many other passages that are only told once . Your man made doctrine fails in light of the whole Scripture.
BTW: did a google search and could not find one reference to your hypothetical fundamental evangelical doctrine of Corroboration! But nice try.
This is where we differ. Amils base their beliefs, mode of interpretation, and actions on the expressed corroborated teaching of Scripture - the Word of God. You build yours on what man teaches you. This totally exposes the foundation of your theology and hermeneutics. Pretrib is a man-made Jesuit doctrine that you have foolishly bought into.
You are obviously not getting what i am saying. There are individual details pertaining to passing events that you can only find once in the Book. I have agreed with that. What we are talking about is Pretrib that has no proof-text. There is nothing that you or any Pretribber can present that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 years trib (or any trib), followed by a 3rd coming. Nothing! That is why you are so frustrated. When you present a text you cannot expound it because it doesn't say what you have been taught. You ten ignore the detailed rebuttals are presented that expose your thesis. That is the pattern when engaging with you and other Pretribbers. Because you know this, all you can do is avoid, insult or run.
What is more, while you present Rev 20 as a proof text for your Premil doctrine you have no corroboration for it. That is despite multiple climactic Scriptures being presented to you that shows the one final future coming of Christ is the end. What is more, Rev 19 is the end of the 6th parallel. All flesh are totally destroyed there, thus forbidding your theology. What is more, what you argue in regard to Rev 20, we are supposedly talking about the greatest age in history outside of the NHNE and you have nothing to support your private interpretation of that chapter. That is why many of us abandoned Premil. It contradicts numerous Scripture. Your avoidance is testimony to that.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well of course we can't present. Because the rapture has always been imminent. It can happen any time. The only reason why it is now and end time event is because we are living in the end times.
Nobody I know teaches a 3rd coming. If you know different- I am all ears. Simply the rapture is Jesus descending to the air and not returning ot earth. so if by coming you mean return the answer is no! If by coming, you mean its primary and normal definition of a presence (like present in the atmosphere) then yes!
Your detailed rebuttals are allegorical reinterpretations of Scripture. Teh only rebuttal is to challenge you to prove that a passage that is not constructed to be allegorically interpreted must be allegorically interpreted!
what blatant hypocrisy! In the paragraph above you agree there are many passages that have no corroboration and you are okay with that, then deride the fact that REv. 20 has no corroboration. You yet to show the doctrine of corroboration as you call it andf yet to prove that a passage constructed in a normal usual way must be construed allegorically and then reinterpreted. How can I rebut you when you give no real evidence for you rpositions.
also it seems you are creating a "doctrine of climatic events" to try to justify reinterpreting Scripture.
I have showed you the biblical support for corroboration, which you have rubbished. You are more interested in internet links set up by men. That speaks volumes as to the foundation of your beliefs and the angle of your arguments. I refer you back to the sacred text above that you have ducked around.
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I do not have a clue what you are trying to say. I hope you do. I take it from this obscure and confusing rhetoric that you are admitting my thesis. If i was wrong you would present evidence to support your thesis. This battle was over long ago when you have to address these to doctrines that you promote with plain biblical support and corroboration. It is the issue of corroboration that demolishes your theories.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
YOU said it was a "fundamental doctrine of evangelical christianity" . I googled it and got no hits!
Then you said lots of things have only one passage but corroboration is still vital. so do those one passage things in the bible literal or all they allegorical?
And your proof texts were all about establishing facts concerning judicial matters.
NO I am not more interested, but it was you who called corroboration a doctrine and fundamental and it can't be found and you refuse to corroborate your claims. So according to your ruyle- we just need to ignore your claim for you have failed to corroborate it.
Remember based on you rown writing you must conclude the following:
The 1,000 years are not 1,000 years.
The dead of the trib are not resurrected and reign with Jesus for 1,000 years.
Satan is abyssed but still alive on earth.
Teh woman with the issue was not healed- we have no corroboration for it.
The widow of Naims son was not raised from the dead- we have no corroboration from it.
The man born blind was not healed, we have no corroboration for it.
Jesus on teh road to Emmaus did nothappen- we have no corobration for it.
Peters sermon to the Jews after pentecost didn't happen as written- we have no corroboration for ti.
Do you wish to me list scores of other passages that according to your doctrine of corroboration which is a fundamental doctrine have no corroborating passages in Scripture and thus rejected as literal?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well if you can't understand it, maybe you should go back and review the lies you spread about pre-mils. I was simply telling you that the lies you wrote are just that-lies!
I know of no premil who believes in a 3rd coming as you accuse.
WPM said:
You are obviously not getting what i am saying. There are individual details pertaining to passing events that you can only find once in the Book. I have agreed with that. What we are talking about is Pretrib that has no proof-text. There is nothing that you or any Pretribber can present that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 years trib (or any trib), followed by a 3rd coming. Nothing! That is why you are so frustrated. When you present a text you cannot expound it because it doesn't say what you have been taught. You ten ignore the detailed rebuttals are presented that expose your thesis. That is the pattern when engaging with you and other Pretribbers. Because you know this, all you can do is avoid, insult or run.
1. Yes there is proof text. But as it is only one major verse- it has no corroboration like Jesus on the road to Emmaus.
2. some [people teach that the rapure is followed immediately by the trib, but that is erroneous teaching and only held by a small minority of pre-mils.
3. There is no three comings to earth. Only two. the rapture while called a coming, once again is not at all connected to teh return of Jesus to earth. that is you creating a straw man and beating up your straw man.
4. YOu present no detailed rebuttals. Only accusations and "climatic events."
5. I have given you answers to your direct accusations and supposed evidence for no earthly kingdom. You have ignored that. This is an old trick- accuse your opponent of doing what you do.
Not so. I gave you biblical support for corroboration. That is normally enough for most born again Christians. But not for you. You need a website to support such biblical demands. Do you realize how silly your demands sound? Think about it: what did we do before the internet. This matter is a biblical given by all sound theologians since the Reformation. It is what they blew Romanism out of the water with.
Hello! We are not talking about isolated events that relate to the intra-Advent age that have no major effect on fundamental doctrines. With Premil, we are looking at the invention of some imaginary future age unknown to any of the other Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the New Testament writers. You are promoting something they knew nothing of or taught nothing about. If it were true, do you not think Jesus would have spoken often of it? But no! They all looked to a future perfect arrangement that would arrive at the one final future coming of Christ that would be climactic and eternal. This forbids Premil. The Old Testament prophets anticipated and predicted the arrival of the Messiah with His heavenly kingdom and taught how this would introduce the last days. They spoke about the new heaven and new earth. But they spoke nothing about some imaginary age in-between. That is a Premil invention.
Do you consider Christ's appearing before your 7-years trib a "coming"?
Do you consider Christ's appearing after your 7-years trib a "coming"?
Huperetes
Member
It's pointless to engage an amillennialist in any sort of meaningful discussion. They will simply apply their cherry picked symbolic interpretation of any verse you present. They take great liberty in assigning figurative interpretations in places that further their interest. However, they will selectively assign some metaphoric meaning to any place that disputes their obsolete doctrine. I say "obsolete' because the doctrine had to be contrived as a prophetic crutch to offer possible fulfillment of the promises to Israel once Jerusalem was destroyed. However, since Israel became a nation in 1948 there is no need for such unlearned eschatological inventions. I suspect they will cling to their delusional paradigm even after the third temple is rebuilt.
Really? Zionism is an unbiblical blight upon mankind. The focus of Scripture is Christ not Israel. Jesus Christ is the central character in time –literally. He is the hope of Israel. He is the Messiah. He is man's only Savior and redeemer. He is Lord and God. Throughout this world, time is gauged by the birth of Christ. Think about it: of all the men ever lived, of all the religious heroes and gods that man has ever known, One stands alone at the center of time – Jesus Christ. It is amazing that in every nation in every continent throughout the globe, time is marked in BC Before Christ and AD Anno Domini which is Medieval Latin, translated as "In the year of the Lord." His whole life was a walking evidence and testimony to the fact that He was both God and man. His life, His words and His acts revealed to all that He was God manifested in flesh. But another proof that some overlook was the lengths that Satan went to, to take Him out of the game.
He is the central character of the Old Testament. He is the central character of the New Testament. He is the central character in time. He is the central character in eternity. He is the central character in heaven. He is the central character on earth. God the Father points to Him as His perfect gift to mankind. The Holy Ghost points humanity to Him as man's only hope of redemption. Angels bow before Him, heaven and earth adore Him.
Israel rejected and rejects Christ. Those who hate Christ are not the people of God. They are apostate and of their father the devil. That is a New Testament fact. There is no special favor for ethnic Christ-rejecting apostate Israel since the cross. Quite the opposite. They are under the wrath of God! The kingdom has been removed from them. God has cursed the natural Israeli fig tree and terminated the ancient old covenant Israeli theocracy. But true Israel (Christ-accepting Israel - God's true elect), the faithful remnant, have been expanded to embrace believers in all nations today. God now works through this spiritual Israeli organism to manifest His name throughout the earth. These are the true circumcision. These are the children if Abraham. These are they that reside in true Zion.
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What saith the Scripture?
2 Peter 1:20: “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”
When someone takes one Scripture and makes it contradicts numerous other Scripture you know that their understanding of that text is wrong.
Personal interpretation of a Scripture alone is untrustworthy. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scripture. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.
Deuteronomy 17:6: “At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.”
John 8:17-18: “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.”
We need to establish what is the consistent repeated testimony of the rest of Scripture on the said matter. We should always compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret it in the light of the full written counsel of God. The only sure way to interpret Scripture effectively is with other Scripture. Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture, not the human mind. 2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of strange teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” This important principle is outlined repeatedly both the OT and the NT.
This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”
God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.
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