23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

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Ronald Nolette

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I believe, this lack of corroboration (supporting Scripture with Scripture) that you concede, is at the core of why many reject the Premil theory. This is where your school of thought falls down. Corroboration is fundamental to understanding any truth in Scripture. Without it you are left with private interpretation.
That is there problem and not Scriptures. Jesus wept appears only once with no back up- so using your logic- He really didn't weep.

Please show me this corroboration rule of yours in any recognized book of hermeneutics.

As for the private interpretation manure- yo0u created this straw man and continue to beat that despite being told other wise. Explain to me in detail how accepting the 1,000 years and the resurrection o0f the trib saints as the first resurrection is privately interpreting those passages.
John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
If you would word your conclusions made by your own opinion, I could respect it. But you say it is symbolic and to DISGREE WITH YOUR DEFINING TH ESYMBOLS IS TANTAMOUNT TO APOSTASY.
The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
Depending on how one defines jesus 1,000 year kingdom on earth as to which age it belongs I could agree.
It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.
The Second coming is climatic. and depending on what you define as final, it is also final as well.
The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21).
Not really . If you read teh OT and looked at passages, you will find that there is a time when earth will be restored to a paradise like state (excep-t for three nations) and people will live and work and repopulate the earth! An unbeliever will have till their hundredth birthday to accept Messiah. If they don't they will be killed.

Teh millenial kingdom is also the time Jesus will rule with the rod of iron. IN eternity there is no need for teh rod of iron, unless you believe one can sin once in heaven and get kicked out of heaven.
The Greek word eschatos here simply means end, last, farthest or final. The Greek word chronos means time or times. A more common term in the New Testament is the phrase “the last days.” Also, “the end” is mentioned quite often and is carefully connected to the glorious, triumphant and climactic return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Well it is good to see you know how to use a concordance. Now take the words and lookup their construction and learn that end times, last days etc., have differing meanings depending on the construct. sometimes it refers to the compacted end or last 7 years, sometimes to the last age (the church age) sometime to the last days that began when Israel was reborn in a day as prophesied and fulfilled in 1948.
Again, no Scripture that says what you say. You think because you start something it is a fact. Not so! Quite the opposite.
Yes there are several scriptures- you either have not seen
them, ignore them, or reinterpret them.

And what do you even mean by this start something it is a fact?
Because "the end" is "the end." Hello! That is what the Book says. That is what repeated straightforward Scripture says. They didn't anywhere recognize your future sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium. Multiple second coming passages show it to be the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection.
You really do love lying about what other people say.

And no the second coming is not the end of time. Jesus has not started His reign yet! He is in heaven, the Father is still on the throne, and Satan is still teh temporary god of this world.

and when Jesus conquers death- which according to your personal eschatological mess, according to Gods Word (not yours) Jesus hands the kingdom back to His Father and places HImself under His Father again. You are to benighted and myopiuc and ignore other Scriptures to promote amillenial falsehoods.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I have done this, by the means of showing how God's time line for mankind is divided into 3 exact tranches of 2000 years, with a final 1000 years to come; making a total of 7000 years. Which parallels the 7 'days' of Creation.
Many of the early Church Fathers agreed with this and today it is commonly accepted.
Also there is the fact of God's reward to His Son for His sacrifice for Mankind's sins.

But locked in AMill's and all those who have been sucked by false teachings, are blinded and incapable of understanding the truths of the Prophetic Word. Isaiah 29:9-12
This is not providing evidence but merely a statement of why you believe your own studies.
 

Keraz

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Well we are into the 7000 th year and no fulfilments. You need to recalibrate your thinking.

I bel;ieve that we will see the end around 6,000 years but as the bible is silent on it we should be as well. As you love to throw the ante nicene fathers in- they date creation anywhere from 4004 to 4046 B.C. according to the modern calendar! You wish to disagree with Ussher that is fine,
You can't spell and you can't add, either. We are now at 5992 years since Adam. Proved by the careful addition of the given time periods of the Bible and the historical fact of the past nearly 2000 years since Jesus.
And you are the bright shining light who has been wonderfully set free and your teachings should stand on par with Scripture by all your implications of your studies.
Somebody has to present the truths of Bible prophecy. Its a tough job as just like the Prophets had abuse and rejection, thats what I get for showing the truths of the Prophetic Word.
My teachings ARE scripture.
 

WPM

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No I am just contradicting the straw man caricature you made of me.

Of course not. Daniel noine deals with one end time issue as mentioned. teh rest is found everywhere else in teh bible.

further activities of the antichrist are more specifically described in other passages. You should know that.

If you had simply quoted the text I would have agreed, it is your opinions added that I disagree with.

Daniel 9. IN Dan. 9 He is called the prince of the people who shall come and destroy the sanctuary. We know He is the antichrist because in the midst of that 7 year pact he causes the sacrifice to cease and enters the hoy of holies as the AOD.
  1. In Daniel 9 there is no mention of the Church, a future rapture, tribulation, 7-year tribulation, antichrist, or a 3rd coming. That is all a Pretrib invention.
  2. In 1 Thessalonians 4 there is a future catching away (rapture), but no 7 years tribulation (or tribulation of any length or type following) and there is no 3rd coming.
  3. Revelation 3:10 is also claimed by Pretribbers. But, where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
  4. In Revelation 4:1 you have a rapture, but it is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago to receive Revelation 4-22. Where is any mention of the Church, or a future rapture in the text?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Well you twit what God says so what is sauce for the goose.............

If you do not accept Gods Word as written, why should I accept your words as written???? I see your words as allegorical and symbolic.
Why do you act as if everything in God's Word is literal text. Everyone knows that is not the case. Who are you to say that someone else is not accepting God's Word as written? Should we take a description of a beast with seven heads and ten horns literally as written instead of seeing it as symbolic?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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  1. In Daniel 9 there is no mention of the Church, a future rapture, tribulation, 7-year tribulation, antichrist, or a 3rd coming. That is all a Pretrib invention.
  2. In 1 Thessalonians 4 there is a future catching away (rapture), but no 7 years tribulation (or tribulation of any length or type following) and there is no 3rd coming.
  3. Revelation 3:10 is also claimed by Pretribbers. But, where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
  4. In Revelation 4:1 you have a rapture, but it is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago to receive Revelation 4-22. There is no mention of the Church, or a future rapture.
Exactly. Pretribs stretch scripture beyond recognition to make it fit their view. They insert ideas into the text that are not even remotely there at all.
 

WPM

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That is there problem and not Scriptures. Jesus wept appears only once with no back up- so using your logic- He really didn't weep.

Please show me this corroboration rule of yours in any recognized book of hermeneutics.

As for the private interpretation manure- yo0u created this straw man and continue to beat that despite being told other wise. Explain to me in detail how accepting the 1,000 years and the resurrection o0f the trib saints as the first resurrection is privately interpreting those passages.

What you call "manure" is actually solid biblical hermeneutics. The reason you dismiss it is because your invented doctrine carries no corroboration. In fact, it does not even have one single proof text. It is an invented Jesuit doctrine.

Corroborating evidence is evidence that strengthens or confirms already existing evidence. Corroboration is an essential doctrine for proving any major doctrine. Ignoring it and building your belief on obscure language and private interpretation is a false conclusion fallacy. The mode of hermeneutics of any school of thought must perfectly correlate with the consistent and explicit teaching of Scripture. The only sure way to interpret Scripture is with other Scripture. 2 Peter 1:20 says, “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”

Personal interpretation of a Scripture alone is untrustworthy. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scripture. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

And finally, and most importantly, what is the consistent repeated testimony of the rest of Scripture on the said matter. We should always compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret it in the light of the full written counsel of God. The only sure way to interpret Scripture effectively is with other Scripture. Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture, not the human mind. 2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of strange teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” This important principle is outlined repeatedly both the OT and the NT.

This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.
 

Keraz

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  1. In Daniel 9 there is no mention of the Church, a future rapture, tribulation, 7-year tribulation, antichrist, or a 3rd coming. That is all a Pretrib invention.
  2. In 1 Thessalonians 4 there is a future catching away (rapture), but no 7 years tribulation (or tribulation of any length or type following) and there is no 3rd coming.
  3. Revelation 3:10 is also claimed by Pretribbers. But, where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
  4. In Revelation 4:1 you have a rapture, but it is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago to receive Revelation 4-22. There is no mention of the Church, or a future rapture.
Your trying to prove wrong beliefs, because single scriptures don't tell the whole story, is a joke and shows your desperation and lack of common sense.
You strongly believe that we are in the Kingdom of Jesus now. The way you must prove that is to show how the reign of King Jesus affects world events and prove Divine intervention. Or explain why there is no discernible evidence of such intervention.

Of course, your arguments against the 'rapture to heaven', are valid, as such a thing will never happen.
 

WPM

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Your trying to prove wrong beliefs, because single scriptures don't tell the whole story, is a joke and shows your desperation and lack of common sense.
You strongly believe that we are in the Kingdom of Jesus now. The way you must prove that is to show how the reign of King Jesus affects world events and prove Divine intervention. Or explain why there is no discernible evidence of such intervention.
Hello! He is reigning now over creation and His new creation. Your fight is with Scripture. When the truth is presented or time is taken to study the Book you mock it. Thank God we are not all clones like you want us to be.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?


Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

In our main text this morning, Jesus is described in Revelation 3:7 as, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.


He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”


He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”


Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”


He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
 

Keraz

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If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
This Prophecy refers to Armageddon; when Jesus does Return. Revelation 19:16

Jesus has all authority now, but has yet to come from heaven to take it up. Satan is the present power over the world, as is made clear in Matthew 4:8-9
 

The Light

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Revelation 3:10 is also claimed by Pretribbers. But, where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
I'm probably the only one that you will see mention Revelation 3:7-10 in conjunction with the rapture. That just shows you that the Church is promised a door that no man can open and no man can shut. That door is what keeps the Church from the hour of temptation that comes on the whole world.

That of is followed with verse 11............... Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
In Revelation 4:1 you have a rapture, but it is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago to receive Revelation 4-22. There is no mention of the Church, or a future rapture.
You seem to possess are rare inability to put two facts together and come up with a correct conclusion.

Sure there is no mention of the Church being raptured. He is not going to draw you a map as He comes when you think not. It only talks of John. However, there is a mention of an open door for the Church to escape the hour of temptation. We are told to hold fast that no man take thy crown. Then we have John being presented with an open door and then miraculously there are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. The only viable conclusion is that Jesus has returned and brought His reward. Of course, this is right before the seals are opened and they are what will come on the rest of the world.

You better get your eyes open. Soon it will be too late. The Word says that He will appear a second time to those look for Him. Those that aren't looking for Him and watching as instructed are going to miss the ark.

Hebrews 9
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 

WPM

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I'm probably the only one that you will see mention Revelation 3:7-10 in conjunction with the rapture. That just shows you that the Church is promised a door that no man can open and no man can shut. That door is what keeps the Church from the hour of temptation that comes on the whole world.

I think you are making it up as you go. I have already rebutted this in great detail and you have already (as is your form) carefully avoided the strong evidence to show this is historic. That is the only way your theories stand. Your explanations are ridiculous and show how blinkered you are with the Prtrib lie. You cannot you present a simple proof text or a viable explanation for each passage you present. This is unacceptable and exposes your theology. Please address the biblical text instead of always advancing your opinions as evidence:

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

Firstly, you are butchering the text to support your false teaching.
  • There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text.
  • There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
  • There is no mention of a 7-year tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
  • There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
That is the end of the debate. You have nothing here!

Secondly, you make Christ out to be a liar. According to what you have been taught, He promised the Philadelphians a rapture to heaven to preserve them from undergoing a 7-years trib as a reward for their faithfulness, but, failed to carry through. They all went to the grave, without experiencing this.

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experienced a rapture 2,000 years ago.

Thirdly, if one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would naturally relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

You totally negate the relevance of this passage to the literal Philadelphian Church 2000 years ago, who are long gone. You conveniently divert that promise to the Church generally before the coming of Christ to support your doctrine. This is twisting Scripture. This is wrong and done because you have nothing to support your teaching in the Book.

Fourthly, you do not just err in your understanding of God's Word, you also show an ignorance of history. There was heavy persecution of the early Church throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned.

Pretrib seems to ignore the severity of the hour the seven churches in Asia Minor found themselves in. The Church was being assaulted on all sides – both secularly and religiously. On one side the Roman Empire was on a vicious unrelenting campaign of genocide to obliterate the Gospel witness. The severity of the persecution depended on the area each church was located and the attitude of those enforcing the turmoil. Countless believers throughout the world were being destroyed under the jackboot of Rome. In a religious side-show the Jews were resisting the Church at every step.

The same persecution that the Philadelphian church was to be protected from was the very same trial that the church at Smyrna would have to endure. The Lord said to the church at Smyrna in Revelation 2:10, reference the approaching first century trial, “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

Why do Dispensationalists not apply this passage to the entire Church at the end? Remember Smyrna was specifically told that it would go through a period of distinct tribulation. It seems like Pretrib cherry picks a church out of the 7 that suits its theology and then places it in an end-time scenario. The reason is that this message does not fit the carefully constructed Pretrib paradigm. The message to the Philadelphia church (and the Pretrib interpretation of the same) suits their paradigm.

Fifthly, the Philadelphian Christians are promised protection “from the hour of temptation” on the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God.

Preservation in the midst of trial is a common promise for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to preserve His elect people in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

The same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”

Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.

keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)

In fact, these are the only two places in Scripture that the Greek words tēreō and ek are found together. Not only do these two passages not teach an escape for the Church from this world, but Christ plainly and succinctly proclaims the contrary. Whatever “the hour of temptation” represented to the Philadelphian church they knew that they would be sheltered from its awful throes. There is no indication that they anticipated that blessing to involve being beamed out of the Roman Empire.
 

WPM

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You seem to possess are rare inability to put two facts together and come up with a correct conclusion.

Sure there is no mention of the Church being raptured. He is not going to draw you a map as He comes when you think not. It only talks of John. However, there is a mention of an open door for the Church to escape the hour of temptation. We are told to hold fast that no man take thy crown. Then we have John being presented with an open door and then miraculously there are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. The only viable conclusion is that Jesus has returned and brought His reward. Of course, this is right before the seals are opened and they are what will come on the rest of the world.

Where is a future rapture mentioned here in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Where is the Church mentioned here in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Poignantly, you argue that the absence of the word “Church” between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19 is proof that the Church must be in heaven. So, your doctrine is hung on the actual gallows you want to hang those who disagree with you. This is how absurd Pretrib is. It is nonsensical and self-defeating. It reminds me of wicked Haman scheming to hang righteous Mordecai on his cunningly constructed gallows and he ended up hanging on his own gallows. That is Pretrib.

Remember, this is supposed to be your golden proof-text? The reality is: it doesn't exist, just like your doctrine that you have been taught. It is fake news.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You can't spell and you can't add, either. We are now at 5992 years since Adam. Proved by the careful addition of the given time periods of the Bible and the historical fact of the past nearly 2000 years since Jesus.
And you can't accept Gods Word without you saying you hare the one who has decoded it like a Nostradamus Quartrain!

Maybe we are 5992 since Adam or maybe we are well past the sixth thousandth year! No one knows how long Adam and Eve lived in the garden before they fell. And the 130 years of Gen. 5 can only be speculated as to when that started! Was it 130 years after his creation? ( it is probable he did not age a day before the fall) 130 after the fall, 130 after Cain and Abel? YOu can't be sure.
Somebody has to present the truths of Bible prophecy. Its a tough job as just like the Prophets had abuse and rejection, thats what I get for showing the truths of the Prophetic Word.
My teachings ARE scripture.
Somebody has to present the truths of Bible prophecy. Its a tough job as just like the Prophets had abuse and rejection, thats what I get for showing the truths of the Prophetic Word.
My teachings ARE scripture.


WOW! Teh Scriptures are Scriptures and your Nostradamus like interpreting an d rewriting of Gods Word are just your ego run amock!

I accussed you once before of taking your words and putting them on par with gods Word and you just undeniably proved it! Keraz, you are heading for a powerful fall so you may learn to reign in you rpride.

I exhort you to do the following:

1. Get under the leadership of a pastor /teacher in a local church. As is called for in gods Word
2. Submit yourself to His leadeship over you. They are given to mature us.
3. Bless the portion of the body you are called to belong to.
4. Faithfully attend the gatherings of that assembly as is commanded us.
5. Present your owrks for the scrutiny of the leadership. Even Paul submitted himself to the leaders before him.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Why do you act as if everything in God's Word is literal text. Everyone knows that is not the case. Who are you to say that someone else is not accepting God's Word as written? Should we take a description of a beast with seven heads and ten horns literally as written instead of seeing it as symbolic?
I do not! but I also know that as God gave us language and the rules on how to use it, He also gave us the knowledge to see in the instruction of His Word when something is literal and when it is not. I have taught for over 4 decades and I freely show the many parabolic, eschatological, and symbols in Scripture. I also show that each symbol and allegory and parable is explained in Scripture as well.

What do you do when someone takes something symbolic that you take literal and uses the same line you just used?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Why do you act as if everything in God's Word is literal text. Everyone knows that is not the case. Who are you to say that someone else is not accepting God's Word as written? Should we take a description of a beast with seven heads and ten horns literally as written instead of seeing it as symbolic?
But if you want to know the rational hermeneutic I use:

  1. The third rule of interpretation is as follows: WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.​
    1. Seek the plain, literal meaning of the Scriptures.​
      1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.​
      2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual."​
      3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.​
      4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis.​
      5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning.​
    2. Seek the figurative meaning only when the facts demand such an interpretation.​
      1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa.​
    3. Study every statement of the Scriptures in context. ("A TEXT APART FROM ITS CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT.") Then study the facts of the context in the light of related passages and axiomatic fundamental truths. "... No prophecy of scripture is of private (special) interpretation" (II Peter 1:20); "The sum of thy word is truth" (Psalm 119:160).​


IOW: this is how all of us read every other piece of written material (including spiritual books and commentaries). Why people have to seek and rewrite teh bible like God wrote like Nostradamus is a mystery.​
 

WPM

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I do not! but I also know that as God gave us language and the rules on how to use it, He also gave us the knowledge to see in the instruction of His Word when something is literal and when it is not. I have taught for over 4 decades and I freely show the many parabolic, eschatological, and symbols in Scripture. I also show that each symbol and allegory and parable is explained in Scripture as well.

What do you do when someone takes something symbolic that you take literal and uses the same line you just used?

I hope you did not teach them to spell "the" as "teh." LOL.

From what I see, your hermeneutics are up the left. You scoff at the importance of corroboration. You spiritualize the literal passages and literalize the spiritual passages. Your hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Your own hermeneutics actually forbids your beliefs.
 

Truth7t7

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You can't spell and you can't add, either. We are now at 5992 years since Adam. Proved by the careful addition of the given time periods of the Bible and the historical fact of the past nearly 2000 years since Jesus.
Are you sure it's not 5993 years, 4 months, 22 days, 3 hours, and 22 minutes?
 
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WPM

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But if you want to know the rational hermeneutic I use:

  1. The third rule of interpretation is as follows: WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.​
    1. Seek the plain, literal meaning of the Scriptures.​
      1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.​
      2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual."​
      3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.​
      4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis.​
      5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning.​
    2. Seek the figurative meaning only when the facts demand such an interpretation.​
      1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa.​
    3. Study every statement of the Scriptures in context. ("A TEXT APART FROM ITS CONTEXT IS A PRETEXT.") Then study the facts of the context in the light of related passages and axiomatic fundamental truths. "... No prophecy of scripture is of private (special) interpretation" (II Peter 1:20); "The sum of thy word is truth" (Psalm 119:160).​


IOW: this is how all of us read every other piece of written material (including spiritual books and commentaries). Why people have to seek and rewrite teh bible like God wrote like Nostradamus is a mystery.​

This is all fizz-and-bubble! You do not believe this. You can copy and paste anything from the internet and claim that is what you hold. Context is what you do not get. You promote a belief that doesn't even have 1 single proof text - Pretrib. You promote another false belief - Premil - that enjoys zero corroboration in the inspired text. What type of hermeneutics are these? You are obviously winging it. Why would anyone who has engaged with you take these words serious? Your hermeneutics allow you to use Scripture as a lotto ticket manipulating it to suit your error.
 
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