25 questions that prove that ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern Premil

[Randy Kluth]

So, what exactly are "the side effects of being an Amil" that you "have concerns about"?

I mentioned them, the concern about become anti-Semitic, in any way. This certainly does not apply to all--it's just that the doctrine of RT (I don't want to say it) seems to feed that in some people. I recognize that it doesn't in many, and yet the language itself seems to feed that "beast" in some.

That's one concern. The other involves the idea of a present advance of the Kingdom. Immediately what comes to mind are the Kingdom Now people, the Manifest Sons of God, the Dominion Theology people, the Latter Rain advocates, etc. These tend to look at the Kingdom of God as both present and advancing forcefully.

Some like Larry Lea thought they were virtually praying in the Kingdom presently. Some on the Political Right think they are bringing in the Kingdom by faith and by political involvement, as well as by a theology of a Christian State (I'm not entirely opposed to that myself, except that I don't believe in force).

Anyway, if this isn't you, I'm happy. It's just that the idea of a Present Kingdom creates this kind of Activism in some people, and it tends to be both unrealistic and oppressive. It is unrealistic because people think they're casting Satan out of their homes, nation, and world, when they're fated to see satanic opposition, persecution, and in fact, a kind of victory over the saints.

It is oppressive because a minority of Christians think to impose their way, no matter how right the cause, upon a majority that rejects faith, religion, and morality. I believe God would only have a Kingdom on earth when a majority want it. I believe this will only happen, in the end, when Christ comes back to judge the forces of Antichrist.

Thanks for asking. It's a legitimate question, and the way I say things are often misunderstood as "hate" rhetoric. I do *not* hate Amills, in particular because I grew up as such, and most of Christian history has been there. Most Amill theology I agree with, except for the central element of rejecting a literal Millennium.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think your post verifies what I was told years ago: inside every single Premillennialist is an Amillennialist trying to get out.

Premills are cousins to Amills--that's why they're similar, in my view. I would not attribute to Amill what is common to all of Christianity, among those who are doctrinally orthodox. The Amil spin on these doctrines is what prevents agreement. Just stating the basic doctrines, as such, invites agreement.

Your view of Premill seems to be jaded. I can't agree with your characterizations.

This is totally untrue. One just has to read back over this past three weeks on this forum to see how many non-Dispensationallist Premillennialists advocate the restoration of innocent animal sin offerings in the future in their future millennium.

Here's the thing, brother. This forum and many like it are *not* a cross-section of Christianity in general. So what you hear in these forums are not representative of the overall reality of what we're talking about. In my experience, Dispensationalism is focused on a kind of separate covenant with Israel, but remains the New Covenant at the same time. I would agree with you that this is messed up, and inconsistent. But it remains what they believe.

They often believe, therefore, that Israel will renew the sacrificial system, not as in disagreement with the Covenant of Christ, but rather, as an ethnic thing God reserved for Israel. And they do this because there are a number of Scriptures that indicate that. I don't agree with their interpretation, but those passages are there.

Not true! You or no Premil here teaches that Jesus is currently reigning over His enemies until He finally destroys them all at His climactic return. Your doctrine populates your future millennium with billions of enemies.

You are applying your own unique Amill slant to this. As far as I know, all doctrinally-orthodox Christians, Amill and Premill, believe that Jesus is now sitting at the right hand of God, and is, in fact, Lord over all as God Almighty. Do you evidence to the contrary?

So it's really a matter of whether God is applying all of heaven's power to conquer the Devil on earth *today,* or if this is only going to happen in the future. Since you also would produce a dichotomy between the Kingdom now and the Kingdom at Christ's Coming, don't fail to see the issues here!

Is there sin in your future millennium? Yes!
Is there sinners in your future millennium? Yes!
Is there mortals in your future millennium? Yes!
Is there mortality in your future millennium? Yes!
Is there disease in your future millennium? Yes!
Is there decay in your future millennium? Yes!
Is there sin in your future millennium? Yes!

Then the bondage of corruption has not been banished. Hello!

Yes, as I clearly said, the orthodox doctrines of the Church are believed in by Premills, but not when they obtain their unique Amill slants. You can't accept a good sandwich if you think there's even a little poison mixed in.

Premills feel they must accept the book of Revelation in ch. 20 when it speaks, apparently, of a literal Millennium. This is a conscientious choice, right or wrong! Belief in a continuing age of mortal humanity should not unduly upset you, since Christians are encouraged to follow their own conscience, their own faith.

Sorry? "The rule of the immortal Church in the age to come will prevent enemies from having their way." But they are still there! Hello! Who do you you think that you are kidding? You just admitted the opposite of what you just claimed. These subjugated rebels arise in their billions to overrun and overthrow your millennium at the end. So much for success and millennial bliss. Satan has a season to gather all the nations of the world together to surround Jesus and the glorified saints 1000 years after the second coming. This of course is another Premil fairy tale.

You can't or won't understand because you insist on painting this in your own colors! Premills *never* see the future age of the Kingdom as "full of sin and rebellion!" Why you refuse to see that I can't understand? You're much smarter than that!

So it must be an absolute belief in Amill, along with the conviction that you are helping those who are not. I guess that's called an "impasse" with respect to you and me, because I see the opposite, though not as hard core as you.

 

[WPM]

Premills are cousins to Amills--that's why they're similar, in my view. I would not attribute to Amill what is common to all of Christianity, among those who are doctrinally orthodox. The Amil spin on these doctrines is what prevents agreement. Just stating the basic doctrines, as such, invites agreement.

Your view of Premill seems to be jaded. I can't agree with your characterizations..

I present an accurate Premil. I used to be and teach it. You misrepresent Amil.

Here's the thing, brother. This forum and many like it are *not* a cross-section of Christianity in general. So what you hear in these forums are not representative of the overall reality of what we're talking about. In my experience, Dispensationalism is focused on a kind of separate covenant with Israel, but remains the New Covenant at the same time. I would agree with you that this is messed up, and inconsistent. But it remains what they believe.

They often believe, therefore, that Israel will renew the sacrificial system, not as in disagreement with the Covenant of Christ, but rather, as an ethnic thing God reserved for Israel. And they do this because there are a number of Scriptures that indicate that. I don't agree with their interpretation, but those passages are there.

What is taught here by Premils on this board about the reintroduction of animal sacrifices is the default position of most Premils in life I have met. So I stand over this claim. It is you that seems to be in a minority, although i do not see you confront this nonsense.

You are applying your own unique Amill slant to this. As far as I know, all doctrinally-orthodox Christians, Amill and Premill, believe that Jesus is now sitting at the right hand of God, and is, in fact, Lord over all as God Almighty. Do you evidence to the contrary?

So it's really a matter of whether God is applying all of heaven's power to conquer the Devil on earth *today,* or if this is only going to happen in the future. Since you also would produce a dichotomy between the Kingdom now and the Kingdom at Christ's Coming, don't fail to see the issues here!

No. Most Premils attack Amils for saying Christ is currently king reigning over His kingdom and enemies now. This is erroneous.

Yes, as I clearly said, the orthodox doctrines of the Church are believed in by Premills, but not when they obtain their unique Amill slants. You can't accept a good sandwich if you think there's even a little poison mixed in.

Premills feel they must accept the book of Revelation in ch. 20 when it speaks, apparently, of a literal Millennium. This is a conscientious choice, right or wrong! Belief in a continuing age of mortal humanity should not unduly upset you, since Christians are encouraged to follow their own conscience, their own faith.

Once again you avoid the questions. But that only serves to reinforce my claims. You have to avoid because for you to answer would expose your previous denials.

You can't or won't understand because you insist on painting this in your own colors! Premills *never* see the future age of the Kingdom as "full of sin and rebellion!" Why you refuse to see that I can't understand? You're much smarter than that!

So it must be an absolute belief in Amill, along with the conviction that you are helping those who are not. I guess that's called an "impasse" with respect to you and me, because I see the opposite, though not as hard core as you.

You are living in denial. There is nothing you can do with these billions of millennial rebels. They are there and you cannot do anything with them, apart from try and pretend they do not exist and prosper in your millennium. Obviously, this proves that the bondage of corruption continues unabated after the second coming in your theology, despite the Scriptures teaching otherwise.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

The ECFs believed that the Church is true Israel, spiritual Jews, the children of promise, Abraham's seed. The old covenant national theocratic Israel is long-finished through the introduction of the new covenant – which is focused on all nations equally. Race is no longer a benefit, simply grace. All nations can encounter Christ today and be spiritually circumcised. This is all classic Amillennial theology.

Here are a few early quotes re the Church being true Israel. This is only one brief study, a numerous we can look at. That is why I have concluded a long time ago that ancient Chiliasm is closer to modern-day Amil. These relate to the 2nd 100 years after the cross.

Ignatius
Bishop of Antioch, Syria
(A.D. 98-117)

Epistle to the Magnesians
Chapter X – Beware of Judaizing

Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter VI – Do not accept Judaism.

If any one preaches the one God of the law and the prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil, and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of mere carnal circumcision …

Clement
Bishop of Rome, Italy
(Died around 99 A.D.)

1 Clement 29:1-3 –30:1

His people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, and Israel the lot of His inheritance. And in another place [the Scripture] saith, “Behold, the Lord taketh unto Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man takes the first-fruits of his threshing-floor; and from that nation shall come forth the Most Holy.” Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness.

Barnabas
Alexandria, Egypt
(A.D. 70-120)

Chapter 6 – The sufferings of Christ, and the new covenant, were announced by the prophets

Moses also says to them, “Behold these things, saith the Lord God: Enter into the good land which the Lord swore [to give] to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and inherit ye it, a land flowing with milk and honey.” What, then, says Knowledge? Learn: “Trust,” she says, “in Him who is to be manifested to you in the flesh—that is, Jesus.” For man is earth in a suffering state, for the formation of Adam was from the face of the earth. What, then, meaneth this: “into the good land, a land flowing with milk and honey?” Blessed be our Lord, who has placed in us wisdom and understanding of secret things. For the prophet says, “Who shall understand the parable of the Lord, except him who is wise and prudent, and who loves his Lord?” Since, therefore, having renewed us by the remission of our sins, He hath made us after another pattern, [it is His purpose] that we should possess the soul of children, inasmuch as He has created us anew by His Spirit. For the Scripture says concerning us, while He speaks to the Son, “Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the beasts of the earth, and the fowls of heaven, and the fishes of the sea.” And the Lord said, on beholding the fair creature man, “Increase, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” These things [were spoken] to the Son. Again, I will show thee how, in respect to us, He has accomplished a second fashioning in these last days. The Lord says, “Behold, I will make the last like the first.” In reference to this, then, the prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” Behold, therefore, we have been refashioned, as again He says in another prophet, “Behold, saith the Lord, I will take away from these, that is, from those whom the Spirit of the Lord foresaw, their stony hearts, and I will put hearts of flesh within them,” because He was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us. For, my brethren, the habitation of our heart is a holy temple to the Lord. For again saith the Lord, “And wherewith shall I appear before the Lord my God, and be glorified?” He says, “I will confess to thee in the Church in the midst of my brethren; and I will praise thee in the midst of the assembly of the saints.” We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth. But He said above, “Let them increase, and rule over the fishes.” Who then is able to govern the beasts, or the fishes, or the fowls of heaven? For we ought to perceive that to govern implies authority, so that one should command and rule. If, therefore, this does not exist at present, yet still He has promised it to us. When? When we ourselves also have been made perfect [so as] to become heirs of the covenant of the Lord.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

Chapter XIII – Christians, and not Jews, the heirs of the covenant

But let us see if this people is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them … And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” Ye see on whom he laid [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge.

Chapter XVI – The spiritual temple of God.

Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple ... For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us; opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple, that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the incorruptible temple. He then, who wishes to be saved, looks not to man, but to Him who dwelleth in him, and speaketh in him, amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth, nor himself having ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Justin
Asia Minor (now Turkey)
(AD 100-166)

Letter to Diognetus

Chapter 4

As far as their meticulous attention to food, their superstition in regard to the Sabbaths, their boasting about circumcision, and their whims about fasting and the new moons—which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of attention—I don't think you need to learn anything from me.

To glory in the circumcision of the flesh as a proof of election—as though because of it they are especially loved by God—how can this not be a subject of ridicule?

Dialogue with Trypho, 11

And by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt’. If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed.

Justin explains that those in Christ are spiritual Israel and the true offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah. The new covenant is an ongoing arrangement from the cross and man’s only hope of salvation.

Chapter 24.

Justin: Now, sirs, it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will—as was declared above—with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me;' He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provokes Me to my face.'

Jerusalem is here spiritualized and is the abode of the elect of God throughout the nations.

Chapter 125

Justin: I wish, sirs, to learn from you what is the force of the name Israel…

The name Israel signifies this, A man who overcomes power; for Isra is a man overcoming, and El is power. And that Christ would act so when He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures. For when He became man, as I previously remarked, the devil came to Him—i.e., that power which is called the serpent and Satan—tempting Him, and striving to effect His downfall by asking Him to worship him. But He destroyed and overthrew the devil, having proved him to be wicked, in that he asked to be worshipped as God, contrary to the Scripture; who is an apostate from the will of God. For He answers him, 'It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.' Then, overcome and convicted, the devil departed at that time. But since our Christ was to be numbed, i.e., by pain and experience of suffering, He made a previous intimation of this by touching Jacob's thigh, and causing it to shrink. But Israel was His name from the beginning, to which He altered the name of the blessed Jacob when He blessed him with His own name, proclaiming thereby that all who through Him have fled for refuge to the Father, constitute the blessed Israel. But you, having understood none of this, and not being prepared to understand, since you are the children of Jacob after the fleshly seed, expect that you shall be assuredly saved. But that you deceive yourselves in such matters, I have proved by many words.

Chapter CXXXIV

Jacob was called Israel; and Israel has been demonstrated to be the Christ, who is, and is called, Jesus.

Chapter CXXXV

As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. … understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people (the Jewish people) … it is necessary for us here to observe that there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit.

Chapter 6 – Refutation of the Jews

(40) … The Jews are afflicted like some demented person who sees the earth lit up by the sun, but denies the sun that lights it up! What more is there for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the God denyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled - with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ. Surely, then, it must be plain even to the most shameless that the Christ has come, and that He has enlightened all men everywhere, and given them the true and divine teaching about His Father. Thus the Jews may be refuted by these and other arguments from the Divine teaching.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Hippolytus
Rome, Italy
(AD 170 – 236)

On the End of the World

3. Isaiah as our first witness, inasmuch as he instructs us in the times of the consummation. What, then, does he say? Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence: the daughter of Zion shall be left as a cottage in a vineyard, and as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. You see, beloved, the prophet's illumination, whereby he announced that time so many generations before. For it is not of the Jews that he spoke this word of old, nor of the city of Zion, but of the Church. For all the prophets have declared Sion to be the bride brought from the nations.

Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons,
Gaul, (now France)
(AD 150)

Against Heresies Book III, Chapter XXIII: 1.

Perchance the Jews, complying with our humour, did put this interpretation upon these words. They indeed, had they been cognizant of our future existence, and that we should use these proofs from the Scriptures, would themselves never have hesitated to burn their own Scriptures, which do declare that all other nations partake of [eternal] life, and show that they who boast themselves as being the house of Jacob and the people of Israel, are disinherited from the grace of God.

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXIV

1. And again the same speaks thus: “These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers.” Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament “raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,” is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers.”

Clement
Alexandria, Egypt
(c.150 - c. 215)

Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
Book VI, Chapter 13&14

And the chosen of the chosen are those who by reason of perfect knowledge are called [as the best] from the Church itself, and honoured with the most august glory— the judges and rulers— four-and-twenty (the grace being doubled) equally from Jews and Greeks… Such, according to David, rest in the holy hill of God, in the Church far on high, in which are gathered the philosophers of God, who are Israelites indeed, who are pure in heart, in whom there is no guile.

Athenagoras
Athens, Greece
(wrote A.D. 177)

Chapter 6 – Refutation of the Jews

(40) … the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow?

The Jews are afflicted like some demented person who sees the earth lit up by the sun, but denies the sun that lights it up!

Melito
Bishop of Sardis, Asia Minor (now Turkey)
(d. c. 180)

On the Passover (Peri Pascha)

37. So whenever the thing arises for which the model was made, then that which carried the image of that future thing is destroyed as no longer of use, since it has transmitted its resemblance to that which is by nature true. Therefore, that which once was valuable, is now without value because that which is truly valuable has appeared…
40. The people, therefore, became the model for the church, and the law a parabolic sketch. But the gospel became the explanation of the law and its fulfillment, while the church became the storehouse of truth.
41. Therefore, the type had value prior to its realization, and the parable was wonderful prior to its interpretation. This is to say that the people had value before the church came on the scene, and the law was wonderful before the gospel was brought to light.
42. But when the church came on the scene, and the gospel was set forth, the type lost its value by surrendering its significance to the truth, and the law was fulfilled by surrendering its significance to the gospel. Just as the type lost its significance by surrendering its image to that which is true by nature, and as the parable lost its significance by being illumined through the interpretation …
45. The Jerusalem here below once had value, but now it is without value because of the Jerusalem from above. The meager inheritance once had value; now it is without value because of the abundant grace. For not in one place alone, nor yet in narrow confines, has the glory of God been established, but his grace has been poured out upon the uttermost parts of the inhabited world, and there the almighty God has taken up his dwelling place through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. Amen.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Tertullian
Carthage, Africa, (now Tunisia)
(160 – 220 AD)

On the Resurrection of the Flesh
Chapter XXVI

The Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God. For “he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but he who is one inwardly.” In the same way it is that both God’s temple and Jerusalem (must be understood) when it is said by Isaiah: “Awake, awake, O Jerusalem! put on the strength of thine arm; awake, as in thine earliest time,” that is to say, in that innocence which preceded the fall into sin. For how can words of this kind of exhortation and invitation be suitable for that Jerusalem which killed the prophets, and stoned those that were sent to them, and at last crucified its very Lord? Neither indeed is salvation promised to any one land at all, which must needs pass away with the fashion of the whole world.

Chapter XXIV

God’s kingdom in an everlasting and heavenly possession. Besides, your Christ promises to the Jews their primitive condition, with the recovery of their country; and after this life’s course is over, repose in Hades in Abraham’s bosom. Oh, most excellent God, when He restores in amnesty what He took away in wrath! Oh, what a God is yours, who both wounds and heals, creates evil and makes peace! Oh, what a God, that is merciful even down to Hades! I shall have something to say about Abraham’s bosom in the proper place. As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof;

Clement
Alexandria, Egypt
(c.150 - c. 215)

The Instructor
Chapter VIII – On the Use of Ointments and Crowns

They crowned Jesus raised aloft, testifying to their own ignorance. For being hard of heart, they understood not that this very thing, which they called the disgrace of the Lord, was a prophecy wisely uttered: “The Lord was not known by the people” which erred, which was not circumcised in understanding, whose darkness was not enlightened, which knew not God, denied the Lord, forfeited the place of the true Israel, persecuted God, hoped to reduce the Word to disgrace; and Him whom they crucified as a malefactor they crowned as a king.

 

[covenantee]

The ECFs believed that the Church is true Israel, spiritual Jews, the children of promise, Abraham's seed. The old covenant national theocratic Israel is long-finished through the introduction of the new covenant – which is focused on all nations equally. Race is no longer a benefit, simply grace. All nations can encounter Christ today and be spiritually circumcised. This is all classic Amillennial theology.

Amen brother.

Race never was a benefit, as Israel was both Jew and Gentile from its birth and throughout its entire history. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; et al).

Premil incessantly attempts to play the race card in its efforts to identify the Israel of God. It fails.

It has always been grace, and grace alone.

 

[WPM]

Amen brother.

Race never was a benefit, as Israel was both Jew and Gentile from its birth and throughout its entire history. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; et al).

Premil incessantly attempts to play the race card in its efforts to identify the Israel of God. It fails.

It has always been grace, and grace alone.

Exactly. This is a modern Premil belief.

 

[Keraz]

What is taught here by Premils on this board about the reintroduction of animal sacrifices is the default position of most Premils

I teach that there will again be sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
Because that is what the Prophets plainly say will happen and to deny it, is a direct rejection of God's Word.

Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.

The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus.
They continue during the Millennium:
Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

There is nothing you can do with these billions of millennial rebels.

Another blatant mis-reading or flat out ignoring of scripture!
Jesus destroys all the ungodly peoples at His Return. Revelation 19:17-19, and makes Satan impotent for the next thousand years.
Therefore: ONLY the faithful, righteous Christian people will be citizens of the Millennium Kingdom.
AFTER the Millennium is over, then Satan is released for a short time and those people alive then who fall for Satans lies, will be killed along with Satan. Revelation 20:7-10

Exactly. This is a modern Premil belief.

Yes, those who have been fooled by the 'rapture to heaven' false teaching, must have ethnic Israel on earth, while they sit up in heaven.
I totally reject such nonsense; Ephesians 2:11-18 is crystal clear; ethnicity has no bearing on who is and who is not the people of God.

Ethnic Israel, or more correctly: the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, who call themselves Jews, are Prophesied to be virtually wiped out in the forthcoming Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zechariah 1:14-18, +

 

[covenantee]

I teach that there will again be sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
Because that is what the Prophets plainly say will happen and to deny it, is a direct rejection of God's Word.

Hebrews 10
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Do you believe that the above passage is a direct rejection of God's Word?

 

[WPM]

I teach that there will again be sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
Because that is what the Prophets plainly say will happen and to deny it, is a direct rejection of God's Word.

Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.

The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus.
They continue during the Millennium:
Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

These are all Old Testament Scriptures which you twist and apply to the future when they make absolutely no reference to the future. That is a Premillennialist invention. You have to because you have no New Testament support. It is time to move into the New Testament. There is multiple Scriptures there that forbid this nonsense.

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

You reject that. You say there will be countless more offerings for sin in some imaginary future millennium. You make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

You fail to see: Calvary completely finished the Old Testament shadow and type. That is why there is no more sacrifice for sin. I find your belief extraordinary. Honestly! This belief should not be allowed on an evangelical site. It is a direct assault upon the cross. It undermines the finished work of Christ. It abrogates the new covenant.

Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

You reject that. You say there remains many more offerings for sin in some imaginary future age. You again make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

It is both alarming and sad how many (that sincerely profess Christ) champion the re-starting of rival sin offerings in the future to compete with Calvary when Christ fulfilled and eternally removed them at the cross. Most of this error has emanated from false teaching of men that should know better. The fact is, the New Testament totally forbids the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. Their expectation to return to the Old Testament type, shadow and figure is gravely misplaced.

John 1:29 records: “John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Hebrews 9:26: "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

1 John 3:5 confirms: “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

1 John 1:7: "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

This is an ongoing effectual covenant that enables man to be forgiven.

Revelation 1:5 tells us that Christ “washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

The Levitical sacrifices could not put away sin. They continued for thousands of years involving innumerable sacrifices, but they did not remove one single sin. But the cross of Christ put away all the sin of God’s redeemed.

Hebrews 8:12 also says about repentant sinners: “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

 

[WPM]

Another blatant mis-reading or flat out ignoring of scripture!
Jesus destroys all the ungodly peoples at His Return. Revelation 19:17-19, and makes Satan impotent for the next thousand years.

Therefore: ONLY the faithful, righteous Christian people will be citizens of the Millennium Kingdom.
AFTER the Millennium is over, then Satan is released for a short time and those people alive then who fall for Satans lies, will be killed along with Satan. Revelation 20:7-10

Not so! These millennial actors inherit a new earth supposedly ruled by Christ and the saints in righteousness with a rod of iron. They are confronted at every turn with the myriads of glorified redeemed that have populated the earth in their perfect bodies and are walking proof of the ongoing reality and truth of the reigning Christ yet these millennial rebels choose to walk in their rebellion.

These millennial mortals must qualify to be the most belligerent, stiff-necked, hard-nosed, stubborn, obstinate company of humans ever to grace this earth. They are way more intransigent than the Pharisees that only had 3 ½ years of resisting the person and ministry in his mortal body. For 1,000 years they refuse to receive the glorified Christ sitting in all His eternal majesty. How could they resist Him? How could they deny His authenticity?

As for the poor lambs, goats and calves that have been lulled into a false sense of peace in this kingdom of Aquarius fellowshipping with leopards, bears and lions, they should be extremely vigilant and very nervous, looking over their backs as often as they can at the sound of every truck, because they will soon be dragged off to the Zadokic abattoir to be butchered in order to cleanse the sin of Israel’s iniquity because the blood of Christ was not enough to meet that great need.

These millennial charlatans change in a twinkling of an eye when Satan is released at the end. They are obviously agents of Satan that have overtaken the earth and are simply waiting for their master to lead them into battle in the final end-time war against righteousness and truth. Their allegiance is clear. Their sinful corrupt natures (like ours) came at birth not when Satan raises his ugly head. The millennium is infested with all the same blight of corruption as we endure now - death, sin and wickedness. So much for the Premil boast that these millennial half-breeds will learn war no more??? What are they fighting with? Water pistols and water balloons?

As for your hope of the removal of the bondage of corruption (namely the end of sin, death and decay), the Premil millennium is more of the same: sweat, death, and decay continue unabated and actually prospers.

 

[Keraz]

Do you believe that the above passage is a direct rejection of God's Word?

No.
Because Hebrews 10:7-9 applies to the current Church age. Soon to end, as all the Christian peoples gather into all of the holy Land.
WE will build a new Temple for our central place of worship and as the place Jesus will rule the world from after He Returns.

You reject that. You say there will be countless more offerings for sin in some imaginary future millennium

The Bible says that; Zechariah 14:16-21 It also says there will be a Millennium, when Jesus will have His reward. Psalms 47 & 48

That you reject and deny plain Words of scripture, is upon your own head.

Not so! These millennial actors inherit a new earth supposedly ruled by Christ and the saints in righteousness with a rod of iron. They are confronted at every turn with the myriads of glorified redeemed that have populated the earth in their perfect bodies and are walking proof of the ongoing reality and truth of the reigning Christ yet these millennial rebels choose to walk in their rebellion.

These millennial mortals must qualify to be the most belligerent, stiff-necked, hard-nosed, stubborn, obstinate company of humans ever to grace this earth. They are way more intransigent than the Pharisees that only had 3 ½ years of resisting the person and ministry in his mortal body. For 1,000 years they refuse to receive the glorified Christ sitting in all His eternal majesty. How could they resist Him? How could they deny His authenticity?

As for the poor lambs, goats and calves that have been lulled into a false sense of peace in this kingdom of Aquarius fellowshipping with leopards, bears and lions, they should be extremely vigilant and very nervous, looking over their backs as often as they can at the sound of every truck, because they will soon be dragged off to the Zadokic abattoir to be butchered in order to cleanse the sin of Israel’s iniquity because the blood of Christ was not enough to meet that great need.

These millennial charlatans change in a twinkling of an eye when Satan is released at the end. They are obviously agents of Satan that have overtaken the earth and are simply waiting for their master to lead them into battle in the final end-time war against righteousness and truth. Their allegiance is clear. Their sinful corrupt natures (like ours) came at birth not when Satan raises his ugly head. The millennium is infested with all the same blight of corruption as we endure now - death, sin and wickedness. So much for the Premil boast that these millennial half-breeds will learn war no more??? What are they fighting with? Water pistols and water balloons?

As for your hope of the removal of the bondage of corruption (namely the end of sin, death and decay), the Premil millennium is more of the same: sweat, death, and decay continue unabated and actually prospers.

I have one word for this: tripe.

 

[WPM]

I have one word for this: tripe.

That does not surprise me. The cross does not seem efficacious enough for you. It is not final enough.

It is for Amils!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I present an accurate Premil. I used to be and teach it. You misrepresent Amil.

I disagree. A lot of people teach in error.

What is taught here by Premils on this board about the reintroduction of animal sacrifices is the default position of most Premils in life I have met. So I stand over this claim. It is you that seems to be in a minority, although i do not see you confront this nonsense.

Your experience is obviously limited.

No. Most Premils attack Amils for saying Christ is currently king reigning over His kingdom and enemies now. This is erroneous.

I wouldn't always put disagreements in a war-like description--it isn't always an "attack" to disagree. I personally would agree with Amills that there is a present sense of Christ's Kingdom that impacts the earth. Salvation takes place that way, and even national judgments take place by the agency of God's Kingdom in heaven.

But I would argue that the Kingdom that Jesus is bringing at his 2nd Coming isn't here yet. And it will be different from what we see today. The binding of Satan, mentioned in Rev 20, will have an impact on world society and on the behavior of nations. The result will be international peace, and a flourishing of Christian nations.

 

[WPM]

I mentioned them, the concern about become anti-Semitic, in any way. This certainly does not apply to all--it's just that the doctrine of RT (I don't want to say it) seems to feed that in some people. I recognize that it doesn't in many, and yet the language itself seems to feed that "beast" in some.

That's one concern. The other involves the idea of a present advance of the Kingdom. Immediately what comes to mind are the Kingdom Now people, the Manifest Sons of God, the Dominion Theology people, the Latter Rain advocates, etc. These tend to look at the Kingdom of God as both present and advancing forcefully.

Some like Larry Lea thought they were virtually praying in the Kingdom presently. Some on the Political Right think they are bringing in the Kingdom by faith and by political involvement, as well as by a theology of a Christian State (I'm not entirely opposed to that myself, except that I don't believe in force).

Anyway, if this isn't you, I'm happy. It's just that the idea of a Present Kingdom creates this kind of Activism in some people, and it tends to be both unrealistic and oppressive. It is unrealistic because people think they're casting Satan out of their homes, nation, and world, when they're fated to see satanic opposition, persecution, and in fact, a kind of victory over the saints.

It is oppressive because a minority of Christians think to impose their way, no matter how right the cause, upon a majority that rejects faith, religion, and morality. I believe God would only have a Kingdom on earth when a majority want it. I believe this will only happen, in the end, when Christ comes back to judge the forces of Antichrist.

Thanks for asking. It's a legitimate question, and the way I say things are often misunderstood as "hate" rhetoric. I do *not* hate Amills, in particular because I grew up as such, and most of Christian history has been there. Most Amill theology I agree with, except for the central element of rejecting a literal Millennium.

This is all fizz and bubble. No wonder you are constantly hostile to Amils. None of this applies to us, and you know it. This is another straw man argument. Who promotes this here? No one! I have never heard of all this. It sounds like an extreme form of Postmil. Notwithstanding, this is nothing compared to all the cults who promote Premil. So your concerns are moot! I suspect you are trying to stir the pot again, as you do.

 

[covenantee]

Because Hebrews 10:7-9 applies to the current Church age.

Scripture does not agree with you.

Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is all fizz and bubble. No wonder you are constantly hostile to Amils. None of this applies to us, and you know it. This is another straw man argument. Who promotes this here? No one! I have never heard of all this. It sounds like an extreme form of Postmil. Notwithstanding, this is nothing compared to all the cults who promote Premil. So your concerns are moot! I suspect you are trying to stir the pot again, as you do.

I have no idea what you're talking about?--just negativity as far as I can tell. Sort of like throwing mud on a canvas. I can't believe you've naïve about the movements I mentioned!

These movements emphasize a Kingdom of God *in the present,* as you do. If you can't see the similarity, and thus the dangers, then I can only conclude that you're some kind of oppositionist, who could care less what the argument is--you're only going to try to negate it by throwing mud at it.

 

[WPM]

I have no idea what you're talking about?--just negativity as far as I can tell. Sort of like throwing mud on a canvas. I can't believe you've naïve about the movements I mentioned!

These movements emphasize a Kingdom of God *in the present,* as you do. If you can't see the similarity, and thus the dangers, then I can only conclude that you're some kind of oppositionist, who could care less what the argument is--you're only going to try to negate it by throwing mud at it.

Putting the anti-Semitic slur on Amils is low and underhand, You know what you are doing. Your usage of words is deliberate and designed to be injurious. To allege the RT charge you frequently, unfairly and antagonistically hurl provokes Amils and serves to "feed that 'beast' in some" Amils is deliberately insulting and inflammatory. Your words are calculated to offend. God forgive you!

What is more, to suggest that believing in a climatic return of Christ, "creates this kind of Activism in some people, and it tends to be both 'unrealistic and oppressive' is the height of nonsense. Your straw man arguments discredit everything you write.

Because you have nothing on Amil, you invent it. You wrap it up in your bigoted hatred for Amil and then present it as truth when it is deliberate lies. The theology you promote has produced all the cults through the centuries. It's not surprising that that origins of your teaching are found with the early heretics.