25 questions that prove that ancient Chiliasm was a different animal to modern Premil

[Randy Kluth]

Putting the anti-Semitic slur on Amils is low and underhand, You know what you are doing.

Let me turn that around. You know what you're doing. You're accusing me of doing something I'm *not* doing! I said I was concerned that with similar theology to these various movements some in your theological system could fall into the same traps.

You constantly exercise a spirit of judgmentalism and criticism of anything that is not Amil. Shame on you! You are utterly unable to debate things amicably with those who don't share your opinion, which would be a Christian trait. Christians normally can love even their enemies. You love only your friends and cheerleaders.

 

[WPM]

Let me turn that around. You know what you're doing. You're accusing me of doing something I'm *not* doing! I said I was concerned that with similar theology to these various movements some in your theological system could fall into the same traps.

You constantly exercise a spirit of judgmentalism and criticism of anything that is not Amil. Shame on you! You are utterly unable to debate things amicably with those who don't share your opinion, which would be a Christian trait. Christians normally can love even their enemies. You love only your friends and cheerleaders.

No. I will never tip toe round your lies and venom. I will call it out. You love to stir the pot. This was (once again) out of order. But yet again: no apology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. I will never tip toe round your lies and venom. I will call it out. You love to stir the pot. This was (once again) out of order. But yet again: no apology.

That's okay. Apologize only when so convicted. I don't claim to be the Holy Spirit.

 

[Keraz]

Scripture does not agree with you.

Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I agree with this. Jesus did make the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
But as is plain from what the Prophetic Word tell us; sacrifices and offerings will again be instituted in a new Temple. To deny this Bible truth, is to reject Gods Word.
They may be done just as a memorial, or as a way for people to physically make a personal atonement for any wrongdoings.

However, it is what God wants, so who are we to object to sacrifices and offerings?

 

[covenantee]

To deny this Bible truth, is to reject Gods Word.

Then you must believe that the writer of Hebrews is rejecting God's Word, because the writer of Hebrews said "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

 

[Christian Gedge]

The other (side effect of amil) involves the idea of a present advance of the Kingdom. Immediately what comes to mind are the Kingdom Now people, the Manifest Sons of God, the Dominion Theology people, the Latter Rain advocates, etc. These tend to look at the Kingdom of God as both present and advancing forcefully.

Hey, hey. You are conflating Amil with Post mill. Amil doesn't say these things that you quote. Yes, we believe in the advancing kingdom of God, but all of us (not just me) acknowledge a short season of falling away at the end of the present millennium. In fact, some of us consider 'Satan's short season' to be upon us now.

 

[jeffweeder]

But I would argue that the Kingdom that Jesus is bringing at his 2nd Coming isn't here yet. And it will be different from what we see today.

So different that it will be on a totally restored earth. The kingdom Jesus is bringing is not for this old earth of fallen flesh. Its a NHNE where only righteousness will dwell. Perhaps one day you can share Peters hope and expectation of receiving this when he comes again.


Titus 2
11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to reject ungodliness and worldly (immoral) desires, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives [lives with a purpose that reflect spiritual maturity] in this present age, 13 awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who [willingly] gave Himself [to be crucified] on our behalf to redeem us and purchase our freedom from all wickedness, and to purify for Himself a chosen and very special people to be His own possession, who are enthusiastic for doing what is good.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So different that it will be on a totally restored earth. The kingdom Jesus is bringing is not for this old earth of fallen flesh. Its a NHNE where only righteousness will dwell. Perhaps one day you can share Peters hope and expectation of receiving this when he comes again.

Jeff, Premills believe that the glorified Church, namely us, will experience the hope of glorified living when Jesus comes again! It is the earth that will experience a limited version of God's heavenly Kingdom, because I believe the earth's population will still consist of sinful mortals, albeit capable of establishing Christian nations.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hey, hey. You are conflating Amil with Post mill. Amil doesn't say these things that you quote. Yes, we believe in the advancing kingdom of God, but all of us (not just me) acknowledge a short season of falling away at the end of the present millennium. In fact, some of us consider 'Satan's short season' to be upon us now.

Yes, that was my purpose, brother. I was comparing other groups--not Amlll--who have a similar view of a present Kingdom, and have problems with their viewpoint. And I was comparing other groups--not Amill--who have a similar view that physical Israel is no longer called to be a nation of God and have problems with anti-Semitism of a kind.

I'm not saying all Amills have these problems. Certainly many do not. This thread is just to explain the concerns I have with a theology that can tend in this direction if not consciously rejected.

 

[WPM]

Yes, that was my purpose, brother. I was comparing other groups--not Amlll--who have a similar view of a present Kingdom, and have problems with their viewpoint. And I was comparing other groups--not Amill--who have a similar view that physical Israel is no longer called to be a nation of God and have problems with anti-Semitism of a kind.

I'm not saying all Amills have these problems. Certainly many do not. This thread is just to explain the concerns I have with a theology that can tend in this direction if not consciously rejected.

You are totally changing your story now. You said:

I just have concerns about the side effects of being an Amil.

I asked: so, what exactly are "the side effects of being an Amil" that you "have concerns about"?

I mentioned them, the concern about become anti-Semitic, in any way. This certainly does not apply to all--it's just that the doctrine of RT (I don't want to say it) seems to feed that in some people. I recognize that it doesn't in many, and yet the language itself seems to feed that "beast" in some.

That's one concern. The other involves the idea of a present advance of the Kingdom. Immediately what comes to mind are the Kingdom Now people, the Manifest Sons of God, the Dominion Theology people, the Latter Rain advocates, etc. These tend to look at the Kingdom of God as both present and advancing forcefully.

Some like Larry Lea thought they were virtually praying in the Kingdom presently. Some on the Political Right think they are bringing in the Kingdom by faith and by political involvement, as well as by a theology of a Christian State (I'm not entirely opposed to that myself, except that I don't believe in force).

Anyway, if this isn't you, I'm happy. It's just that the idea of a Present Kingdom creates this kind of Activism in some people, and it tends to be both unrealistic and oppressive. It is unrealistic because people think they're casting Satan out of their homes, nation, and world, when they're fated to see satanic opposition, persecution, and in fact, a kind of victory over the saints.

It is oppressive because a minority of Christians think to impose their way, no matter how right the cause, upon a majority that rejects faith, religion, and morality. I believe God would only have a Kingdom on earth when a majority want it. I believe this will only happen, in the end, when Christ comes back to judge the forces of Antichrist.

Thanks for asking. It's a legitimate question, and the way I say things are often misunderstood as "hate" rhetoric. I do *not* hate Amills, in particular because I grew up as such, and most of Christian history has been there. Most Amill theology I agree with, except for the central element of rejecting a literal Millennium.

So, you were applying this to "the side effects of being an Amil."

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are totally changing your story now. You said:

I asked: so, what exactly are "the side effects of being an Amil" that you "have concerns about"?

So, you were applying this to "the side effects of being an Amil."

Some Amills, due to their theology, are susceptible to tendencies towards Anti-Semitism. The examples of this come from other groups who are not Amill and yet have a similar theology. And many of them tend towards Anti-Semitism.

Amlls, due to their theology of a Present Kingdom, are susceptible to errors associated with other groups who believe the same and end up in error. The "side effect" of having this theology, when it is not managed by biblical warnings, is error.

I do believe that Amill theology is in error, and thus susceptible to greater error. But Amills can also hold to what I believe is an aberrant theology without capitulating to the errors of Anti-Semitism and making false equivalencies between the Messianic Kingdom and current Christianity.

Catholicism is an example of Christians letting their self-identification with God's Kingdom go unrestrained. The Church became for them the only acceptable form of God's Kingdom on earth. And the Pope was made virtually flawless when pronouncing doctrine. Catholic traditions were glorified.

Amillennialism began at the very time that the Roman State was Christianized. And it has been from that time always susceptible to this tendency toward self-deification.

 

[WPM]

Some Amills, due to their theology, are susceptible to tendencies towards Anti-Semitism. The examples of this come from other groups who are not Amill and yet have a similar theology. And many of them tend towards Anti-Semitism.

Amlls, due to their theology of a Present Kingdom, are susceptible to errors associated with other groups who believe the same and end up in error. The "side effect" of having this theology, when it is not managed by biblical warnings, is error.

I do believe that Amill theology is in error, and thus susceptible to greater error. But Amills can also hold to what I believe is an aberrant theology without capitulating to the errors of Anti-Semitism and making false equivalencies between the Messianic Kingdom and current Christianity.

Catholicism is an example of Christians letting their self-identification with God's Kingdom go unrestrained. The Church became for them the only acceptable form of God's Kingdom on earth. And the Pope was made virtually flawless when pronouncing doctrine. Catholic traditions were glorified.

Amillennialism began at the very time that the Roman State was Christianized. And it has been from that time always susceptible to this tendency toward self-deification.

Everything you write needs to be divided by 100 to bring it into the ballpark. You are so bias in your analyze and so liberal with the facts. You make it up as you go.

Amil was there before the Roman Church and was the preeminent position when Premil was unheard in orthodox circles. It belonged to heretical circles up until AD 270.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Everything you write needs to be divided by 100 to bring it into the ballpark. You are so bias in your analyze and so liberal with the facts. You make it up as you go.

Amil was there before the Roman Church and was the preeminent position when Premil was unheard in orthodox circles. It belonged to heretical circles up until AD 270.

Amillennialism and the developing structure of the centralized Roman Church all began at about the same time. And I've held these positions for a very, very long time. I have no need to make up something I've been saying for decades.

What's somewhat new for me is how in recent years I've been directly confronted with an almost militant Amillennialism by you and your friends. I've analyzed it and recognized these elements of Amill that are of concern to me. Not all Amills concern me, and it may not even be you. However, your militant attitude is my biggest concern with you.

 

[Marilyn C]

What are you talking about? Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

In our main text this morning, Jesus is described in Revelation 3:7 as, “he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Hi WPM,

We both agree that Jesus has all power and authority in this age and the one to come etc. (Eph. 1: 21 & 22) However we do not yet see all things bowing to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Father, we know is bringing the nations to the Lord`s feet for judgment and we see that in the trib.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty,....because you have taken your great power and reigned...` (Rev. 11: 17)

The Lord Jesus, the Head of the Body, is at present building and maturing His Body, as Rev. 1 - 3 reveals. When the Father then sends Jesus for His Body, (Acts 3: 18 - 21) the first rulership to be restored, then Jesus will move to His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) and begin the judgments the Father gives to Him on the judgment scroll.

From then on it is a process of the Lord putting down all power and rule throughout the trib, and the millennium. (1 Cor. 15: 24 then comes the end, in the Greek refers to a process towards a goal).

Marilyn.

 

[WPM]

Amillennialism and the developing structure of the centralized Roman Church all began at about the same time. And I've held these positions for a very, very long time. I have no need to make up something I've been saying for decades.

What's somewhat new for me is how in recent years I've been directly confronted with an almost militant Amillennialism by you and your friends. I've analyzed it and recognized these elements of Amill that are of concern to me. Not all Amills concern me, and it may not even be you. However, your militant attitude is my biggest concern with you.

Your historic opinions have been repeatedly exposed on this forum and others as dubious. So, it matters naught what you have "been saying for decades." You have obviously been wrong for decades. This is no better highlighted than in your constant twisting of the facts pertaining to the ECFs.

I make no apologies for being a passionate Amil.

 

[WPM]

Hi WPM,

We both agree that Jesus has all power and authority in this age and the one to come etc. (Eph. 1: 21 & 22) However we do not yet see all things bowing to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Father, we know is bringing the nations to the Lord`s feet for judgment and we see that in the trib.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty,....because you have taken your great power and reigned...` (Rev. 11: 17)

The Lord Jesus, the Head of the Body, is at present building and maturing His Body, as Rev. 1 - 3 reveals. When the Father then sends Jesus for His Body, (Acts 3: 18 - 21) the first rulership to be restored, then Jesus will move to His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) and begin the judgments the Father gives to Him on the judgment scroll.

From then on it is a process of the Lord putting down all power and rule throughout the trib, and the millennium. (1 Cor. 15: 24 then comes the end, in the Greek refers to a process towards a goal).

Marilyn.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Revelation 11:15 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your historic opinions have been repeatedly exposed on this forum and others as dubious. So, it matters naught what you have "been saying for decades." You have obviously been wrong for decades. This is no better highlighted than in your constant twisting of the facts pertaining to the ECFs.

I make no apologies for being a passionate Amil.

Well you should humble yourself instead of militantly fighting for your causes. That runs counter to living in the Spirit where we let God do our fighting for us. When you try to force your beliefs upon others you show yourself to be carnal.

 

[WPM]

Well you should humble yourself instead of militantly fighting for your causes. That runs counter to living in the Spirit where we let God do our fighting for us. When you try to force your beliefs upon others you show yourself to be carnal.

Not so. The truth matters. We should militantly fight against error.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not so. The truth matters. We should militantly fight against error.

Please stop trying to make this personal. I know my beliefs offend you, but it's what I believe.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not so. The truth matters. We should militantly fight against error.

I Agree, thats why I expose the reformed preterist error of 66-70AD fulfillment that you teach and believe

Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation) these are future events unfulfilled

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord