26 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Davidpt]

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul explicitly taught that when Jesus comes He will be "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". So, who are these people exactly that you think will survive His return and why exactly would they be allowed to survive? Obviously, believers will survive because we will be changed to put on bodily immortality at that time. But, who are these mortal unbelievers that you think will survive His return and why didn't Paul know anything about them? And why would Jesus not take vengeance on them when they would fit the description of those who Paul said Jesus will take vengeance on when He returns?

Both testaments are holy writ and I know you fully agree. The question then is, how to square both passages without contradicting anything.

The first thing to do per the passage you brought up, is to try and determine if there be can be any exceptions. And if we can find some why can't that mean there might be even more?

Take infants, for example. They obviously would not know God nor would they be obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ. One can't be a saved Christian if both of those things apply to someone. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to infants when Christ returns, regardless?

Next let's consider someone mentally challenged that can't comprehend the simplest of things, let alone comprehend that there is a God. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to the mentally challenged I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

What about someone living in a remote region that was never informed that there is a God? If they don't know about a creator God they for sure are not going to know about His Son. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to this person I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

The point still being, if there can be exceptions, why can't there be other exceptions, thus making Zechariah 14:16 possible post that of 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

That's how I interpret the passage you submitted, that it depends on whether there can be exceptions. And if there can be, why can't there be other exceptions?

Speaking of Zechariah 14:16, that is clearly a prediction, a prophecy that begins with---and it shall come to pass. We need to ask our self this. Does the Bible have a track record of predicting things that come to pass that never actually come to pass, in any sense, be it a literal sense or some other sense, therefore, making it a false prophecy?

Maybe it comes across that I'm avoiding answering your question. Except I'm not. I'm just being careful here by trying to determine if there can be exceptions rather than there are no exceptions, case closed, Zechariah 14:16 can't be after 2 Thess 1:8, because to do so would contradict it. But since we both agree both testaments are holy writ, what about Zechariah 14:16 being contradicted if there are no mortal survivors after verse 12 has been fulfilled and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled? Why doesn't that contradiction count?

 

[WPM]

Both testaments are holy writ and I know you fully agree. The question then is, how to square both passages without contradicting anything.

The first thing to do per the passage you brought up, is to try and determine if there be can be any exceptions. And if we can find some why can't that mean there might be even more?

Take infants, for example. They obviously would not know God nor would they be obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ. One can't be a saved Christian if both of those things apply to someone. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to infants when Christ returns, regardless?

Next let's consider someone mentally challenged that can't comprehend the simplest of things, let alone comprehend that there is a God. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to the mentally challenged I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

What about someone living in a remote region that was never informed that there is a God? If they don't know about a creator God they for sure are not going to know about His Son. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to this person I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

The point still being, if there can be exceptions, why can't there be other exceptions, thus making Zechariah 14:16 possible post that of 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

That's how I interpret the passage you submitted, that it depends on whether there can be exceptions. And if there can be, why can't there be other exceptions?

Speaking of Zechariah 14:16, that is clearly a prediction, a prophecy that begins with---and it shall come to pass. We need to ask our self this. Does the Bible have a track record of predicting things that come to pass that never actually come to pass, in any sense, be it a literal sense or some other sense, therefore, making it a false prophecy?

Maybe it comes across that I'm avoiding answering your question. Except I'm not. I'm just being careful here by trying to determine if there can be exceptions rather than there are no exceptions, case closed, Zechariah 14:16 can't be after 2 Thess 1:8, because to do so would contradict it. But since we both agree both testaments are holy writ, what about Zechariah 14:16 being contradicted if there are no mortal survivors after verse 12 has been fulfilled and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled? Why doesn't that contradiction count?

You cannot take God's Word literally. You invent exceptions and then build your thesis upon your invented exceptions. That is ridiculous. That is because it forbids Premil. You are tampering with the text. It seems like anything that cuts across what you think and feel is explained away.

 

[Scott Downey]

Both testaments are holy writ and I know you fully agree. The question then is, how to square both passages without contradicting anything.

The first thing to do per the passage you brought up, is to try and determine if there be can be any exceptions. And if we can find some why can't that mean there might be even more?

Take infants, for example. They obviously would not know God nor would they be obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ. One can't be a saved Christian if both of those things apply to someone. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to infants when Christ returns, regardless?

Next let's consider someone mentally challenged that can't comprehend the simplest of things, let alone comprehend that there is a God. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to the mentally challenged I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

What about someone living in a remote region that was never informed that there is a God? If they don't know about a creator God they for sure are not going to know about His Son. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to this person I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

The point still being, if there can be exceptions, why can't there be other exceptions, thus making Zechariah 14:16 possible post that of 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

That's how I interpret the passage you submitted, that it depends on whether there can be exceptions. And if there can be, why can't there be other exceptions?

Speaking of Zechariah 14:16, that is clearly a prediction, a prophecy that begins with---and it shall come to pass. We need to ask our self this. Does the Bible have a track record of predicting things that come to pass that never actually come to pass, in any sense, be it a literal sense or some other sense, therefore, making it a false prophecy?

Maybe it comes across that I'm avoiding answering your question. Except I'm not. I'm just being careful here by trying to determine if there can be exceptions rather than there are no exceptions, case closed, Zechariah 14:16 can't be after 2 Thess 1:8, because to do so would contradict it. But since we both agree both testaments are holy writ, what about Zechariah 14:16 being contradicted if there are no mortal survivors after verse 12 has been fulfilled and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled? Why doesn't that contradiction count?

It never says that they do not worship the King, (Christ), just if they do not come together to worship, they have no rain, as in blessing from God.
So don't read that they don't worship Christ. Every knee bows and every tongue will confess Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
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Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that every one who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up and come not, upon whom there is no rain, there shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen who come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written: “‘As I live,’ saith the Lord, ‘every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’”

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

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Where ever they are, on earth, below the earth (hell), above the earth (heaven) they will do this.

 

[Scott Downey]

The only survivors of all nations when Christ returns are Christians.

 

[Scott Downey]

Who are these people who have know the depths of Satan?
They are dashed to pieces. When you smash a potter's vessel, it's entire utility is destroyed and it is no longer fit for use.
Ruling them with a rod of Iron, they are smashed to bits as commanded by the Father to Christ.

Revelation 2
18 “And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass:
19 I know thy works, and charity and service, and faith and thy patience, and thy works, and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He that searcheth the reins and hearts; and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine and who have not known the depths of Satan (as they say) I will put upon you no other burden.
25 But that which ye have already, hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations,
27 and “he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers,” even as I have received from My Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches!’

​

 

[Davidpt]

It never says that they do not worship the King, (Christ), just if they do not come together to worship, they have no rain, as in blessing from God.
So don't read that they don't worship Christ. Every knee bows and every tongue will confess Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that every one who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up and come not, upon whom there is no rain, there shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen who come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written: “‘As I live,’ saith the Lord, ‘every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’”

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

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Where ever they are, on earth, below the earth (hell), above the earth (heaven) they will do this.

Why even bring up something about they receiving no rain if they don't come up if it's something they never fail to do to begin with, to come up? Why bring up something that's not even applicable to them? What point would that be making?

Do you then see Zechariah 14:16-19 fitting all of eternity? Or are you applying it to the here and now before Christ returns? Keeping in mind that it can't even come to pass until verse 2 and verse 12 has been fulfilled first. And that verse 12 undeniably has not been fulfilled in any sense. Anyone that claims otherwise is not going to be anyone someone can reason with if they believe that.

Getting back to Zechariah 14:16 again for a moment. Let's not forget, the text says they are to come up from year to year. Therefore, no matter how you look at it, whether that be meaning in a literal sense or some other sense, it is impossible to do that in a single day. Once again, anyone that would argue otherwise is not going to be someone one can reason with if they believe that.

 

[Davidpt]

The only survivors of all nations when Christ returns are Christians.

That would be 100% false IF Premil is true. The ones devoured by fire after the millennium certainly aren't Christians.

 

[Davidpt]

So don't read that they don't worship Christ. Every knee bows and every tongue will confess Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

Here's an idea. Why don't we stick to what the text actually says? Is that too much to ask? Here's what the text says---shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. What does come up from year to year have to do with this---every knee bows and every tongue will confess Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father? Is that too meaning in an ongoing sense, such as from year to year? Thus something that can't get accomplished in a single day nor per a one time event.

 

[Davidpt]

It never says that they do not worship the King, (Christ), just if they do not come together to worship, they have no rain, as in blessing from God.
So don't read that they don't worship Christ. Every knee bows and every tongue will confess Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that every one who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up and come not, upon whom there is no rain, there shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen who come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Romans 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written: “‘As I live,’ saith the Lord, ‘every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’”

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

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Where ever they are, on earth, below the earth (hell), above the earth (heaven) they will do this.

Let's follow your logic to its necessary conclusion. You claim that the only survivors of the nations are Christians. Presumably, at the return of Christ, these Christians are either glorified or perfectly sanctified, living under the direct, visible rule of King Jesus.
If that is true, look at the absurd picture you are painting of Zechariah 14.

According to the texts---

1. You are claiming that true, born-again Christians living under Christ's direct earthly reign will actively choose not to go up to Jerusalem to keep the feast.
2. You are claiming that God will have to punish these Christians by withholding physical rain from their crops.
3. You are claiming that God will strike these Christians with a physical plague for their stubbornness.

Why would perfected Christians need to be threatened with agricultural starvation and plagues to force them to worship the King they love? Plagues and droughts are punishments for the heathen (which verse 18 explicitly calls them). The text clearly describes a world with mortal, fallible nations who are capable of rebellion, not a world populated exclusively by the redeemed

Something else Amils are not factoring in here if Zechariah 14:16 is involving the NJ in the NHNE. Christians don't need to come up, they are already there residing within the NJ itself. Remember, Jesus said that where I am there shall you be also, Where will Jesus be forever once He returns? Is it not in the NJ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both testaments are holy writ and I know you fully agree. The question then is, how to square both passages without contradicting anything.

That question is based on your assumption that both passages have to be related to the same event (the return of Christ). I am not obligated to buy into that assumption, so I don't. I see no way at all to reconcile the two passages if they are about the same event. If they were about the same event then that would force me to conclude that scripture is contradicting itself in the case of these two passages. And, of course, we both know that scripture never contradicts itself, so that is not a valid option to consider.

The first thing to do per the passage you brought up, is to try and determine if there be can be any exceptions. And if we can find some why can't that mean there might be even more?

There isn't, but since you are hellbent on being a Premil, then you try to find a way to do the impossible, anyway.

Take infants, for example. They obviously would not know God nor would they be obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ. One can't be a saved Christian if both of those things apply to someone. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to infants when Christ returns, regardless?

Infants are innocent and will be among those who put on bodily immortality when Jesus returns. What are you suggesting, that you think mortal infants will populate the supposed future earthly kingdom?

Next let's consider someone mentally challenged that can't comprehend the simplest of things, let alone comprehend that there is a God. So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to the mentally challenged I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

Are you suggesting that the mortals who will populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom will be composed of infants and mentally challenged people? This is the argument you're trying to go with here? God knows what each person is capable of. Jesus made it clear that all people are placed into two groups. Those that are with Him and those who are against Him (Matthew 12:30). Thankfully, it's not up to us to make that determination for each person, but it seems clear that the ones who are considered to be against Him are those who knowingly reject God/Jesus. Those who are with Him (saved) will put on bodily immortality when He returns. You're apparently trying to come up with a theory that any people who don't really know what they're doing will populate the earth for a thousand years. Where is that taught anywhere in scripture and what would be the point of that?

Take Matthew 25:31-46, for example and keep 1 Corinthains 15:50 in consideration as well. Those passages indicate that those who inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns will inherit eternal life with immortal bodies at that time. So, how does that leave room for mortals inheriting temporal mortal life in the kingdom at that time?

What about someone living in a remote region that was never informed that there is a God? If they don't know about a creator God they for sure are not going to know about His Son.

Read Romans 1:18-32. Everyone knows about a creator God because He has made Himself plain to everyone by what He has made. Some people suppress that knowledge, but they have no excuse for it. So, this argument doesn't hold any water. Every person is judged based on what they know and every person is in one of two groups. Saved or lost. With Jesus or against Him. Wheat and tares. Sheep and goats. Your attempt to create a third category of people who will be allowed to survive Christ's return in their mortal bodies is not supported by scripture anywhere, including Zechariah 14.

So what do we do here? Make an exception in this case? Or should we assume that verse 8 will be applied to this person I just described when Christ returns, regardless?

The point still being, if there can be exceptions, why can't there be other exceptions, thus making Zechariah 14:16 possible post that of 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

There are no exceptions. You certainly can't support that theory with any scripture. Why would there be any exceptions? You apparently think that the earth will be populated by mentally ill people, infants and people living in remote places after Jesus returns. Who will take care of the infants at that point? Their parents will all either put on bodily immortality or be killed when Jesus returns. I just can't take this seriously at all. You are really reaching here.

That's how I interpret the passage you submitted, that it depends on whether there can be exceptions. And if there can be, why can't there be other exceptions?

How can there be exceptions when your theory results in millions of infants being in the world with no parents?

Speaking of Zechariah 14:16, that is clearly a prediction, a prophecy that begins with---and it shall come to pass. We need to ask our self this. Does the Bible have a track record of predicting things that come to pass that never actually come to pass, in any sense, be it a literal sense or some other sense, therefore, making it a false prophecy?

I never said that the prophecy never has or will come to pass. Did I? No, I'm sure I did not. But, I also think it's highly symbolic and doesn't make any sense to try to figure out how it did or will come to pass literally. You can't get it to line up with the rest of scripture when you take it all (or most of it) literally. Can you admit that?

Maybe it comes across that I'm avoiding answering your question. Except I'm not. I'm just being careful here by trying to determine if there can be exceptions rather than there are no exceptions, case closed,

What scriptures can you point to that would allow these exceptions? Who would take care of all of those infants and mentally ill people that would survive Christ's return in this scenario?

Zechariah 14:16 can't be after 2 Thess 1:8, because to do so would contradict it. But since we both agree both testaments are holy writ, what about Zechariah 14:16 being contradicted if there are no mortal survivors after verse 12 has been fulfilled and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled? Why doesn't that contradiction count?

You assume that verse 12 is meant to be interpreted literally, yet I know that you interpret some of the other verses in Zechariah 14 figuratively. Why do you assume that verse 12 has to be interpreted literally? Yet, you somehow conclude that a passage like 2 Peter 3:10-12 is not meant to be interpreted literally. I don't get it.