...

[RLT63]

I agree. And no need to ask Jesus already told us Judas was predestined to his task.

"Go and do what you must do."

Man makes his plans but God sets his steps.

If that’s the case then no one can be held accountable for their sins. It’s all pre ordained

 

[ButterflyJones]

@ButterflyJones
John 17:11-15....
“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
He identifies satan in the very next verse....
“15 I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one."

In context, this is Jesus talking about his disciples...."they" and "them"....he singled out just one exception who was to be "destroyed".....Judas. How can you possibly think his words apply to satan, when he has just finished asking his Father to watch over his disciples "because of the wicked one"?

In context, Luke 22 and John 13.
In Luke 22,Satan entered Judas and he went and betrayed Jesus to Caiaphas.

 

[RLT63]

In context, Luke 22 and John 13.
In Luke 22,Satan entered Judas and he went and betrayed Jesus to Caiaphas.

There’s that word again

 

[Johann]

Is Judas saved?

No.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Who was chosen in Judas place?

The amazing love of Jesus Christ.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

There’s that word again

son of perdition-mentioned 2x

Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

5) "But the son of perdition," (ei me ho huios tes apoleias) "Except the heir-son of perdition," a term meaning "devoted to perdition," that one Jesus identified as "a devil," Judas Iscariot, Joh_6:70-71; Joh_13:2; Joh_13:27.
MV
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"not one of them perished" This shows Jesus' power of protection (cf. John 6:37,39; 10:28-29).

This term (apollumi) is difficult to translate because it is used in two different senses. In his book Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 1, Gerhard Kittel says of this word, "In general we may say that 2 and 4 underlie statements relating to this world as in the Synoptics, whereas 1 and 3 underlie those relating to the next world, as in Paul and John" p. 394. The definitions he gives are:

"to destroy or kill"
"to lose or suffer loss from"
"to perish"
"to be lost"
This term has often been used to assert the doctrine of annihilation, that is, that unsaved people cease to exist after judgment. This seems to violate Dan. 12:2. It also misses the distinction between the connotations used in the Synoptic Gospels versus John and Paul, who use it metaphorically of spiritual lostness, not physical destruction.
ἀπωλείας
Transliteration: apōleias
Morphology: N-GFS
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's no.: G684 (ἀπώλεια)
Meaning: Destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.


apōleia
18x: consumption, destruction; waste, profusion, Mat_26:8; Mar_14:4; destruction, state of being destroyed, Act_25:6; eternal ruin, perdition, Mat_7:13; Act_8:20.


"but the son of perdition" This obviously refers to Judas Iscariot. This same phrase is used in 2 Thess. 2:3 of the "Man of Sin" (end-time Antichrist). This is a Hebraic idiom meaning "the one who is destined to be lost." It is a wordplay on the term "lost" used earlier in the verse: "no one is lost except the one destined to be lost."

Shalom
Johann.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Satan entered Judas and Judas then betrayed Jesus.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

 

[Johann]

Satan entered Judas and Judas then betrayed Jesus.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

So what do you say @ButterflyJones-according to Scripture-was Judas saved?
Johann.

 

[ButterflyJones]

So what do you say @ButterflyJones-according to Scripture-was Judas saved?
Johann.

I've already and early on answered that. Yes.
Jesus forgave him while on the cross.

As we're told in scripture, Satan was within Judas when Judas betrayed Jesus.
Satan is the destroyer.

 

[Johann]

Satan entered Judas and Judas then betrayed Jesus.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

So-according to your logical reasoning-Hitler and Satan will also be saved?
Johann.

 

[ButterflyJones]

So-according to your logical reasoning-Hitler and Satan will also be saved?
Johann.

Have a good day.

 

[Johann]

Have a good day.

You said Judas is saved by/dia the resurrection of Christ Jesus-I replied-according to your logical reasoning then Hitler and Satan must be saved-and now you run.

Have a good day.
Johann.

 

[RLT63]

I've already and early on answered that. Yes.
Jesus forgave him while on the cross.

As we're told in scripture, Satan was within Judas when Judas betrayed Jesus.
Satan is the destroyer.

There’s that word again

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is Judas saved? Only God can truly look at the conditions of the heart to know if someone believed in Jesus Christ with faith alone and gained permanent salvation. As it is the Holy Spirit, who is God, that is inside a person dwelling that makes a person clean of all sins.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,



Let’s get more specific, and know that I am referring to Judas Iscariot here

Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.



However, if we assume that this Judas, of Iscariot, is not saved, then arises another question.



Will Judas Iscariot be saved? Yes, eventually this Judas will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and be saved permanently. And yes, I am aware that this Judas committed suicide.

Matthew 27:1 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.



And yes I am aware that Judas Iscariot was the one who betrayed Jesus Christ.

Luke 22:47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”



And you’re probably wondering how a traitor like Judas can receive salvation? When his act of betrayal became so popular that it has a whole Wikipedia page on it?



Kiss of Judas - Wikipedia

Justus Knecht comments on Judas' kiss writing,

He did not refuse his treacherous kiss: He suffered His sacred Face to be touched by the lips of this vile traitor, and He even called him: “Friend!” “I have always treated you as My friend”, He meant to imply, “why therefore do you come now at the head of My enemies, and betray Me to them by a kiss!” This loving treatment on the part of our Lord was to the ungrateful traitor a last hour of grace. Jesus gave him to understand that He still loved him in spite of his vile crime, and was ready to forgive him.



Despite this treacherous kiss, Jesus was ready to forgive Judas! And Jesus Christ is still ready, waiting with open arms, ready to forgive Judas Iscariot. All people will become righteous friends of the Lord, like how Abraham believed in the Lord and was seen as a friend of righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”



When his act of betrayal became so noteworthy that it appears on the dictionary? Literally as something specifically defined as “deceitful and treacherous”.

Judas kiss



Judas kiss

Also found in: Idioms, Wikipedia.

a deceitful and treacherous kiss.

an act appearing to be an act of friendship, which is in fact harmful to the recipient.



The term “Judas Kiss” has even gone beyond the Biblical Christianity and has been used to describe “treacherous natures” in general by the general masses, such as with the fictional (aka fake, false) human made Japanese danmaku 弾幕 だんまく series “Touhou” 東方 Though I do enjoy this series, like the music.

Touhou PC-98 東方 5 Kaikidan ~ Mystic Square怪綺談 とうほうかいきだんMai's マイTheme: Treacherous Maiden ~ Judas Kiss. 裏切りの少女Released 1998-12-30 (Comiket 55)

The creator of Touhou, Jun’ya “ZUN” Ōta 太田 順也, and of this music track describes it 東方幻想的音楽 as

This is "Treacherous Maiden ~ Judas Kiss" from Mystic Square. … I was thinking of arranging in Biblical style as the title implies(kiss of Judas), but what's Biblical style in the first place? I seem to have gained a bit of its conscious later on (^ ^;.

Mystic Square/Music



So even those outside of Christianity can recognize that Judas is treacherous. Then, how can this person be saved, who committed such a deceitful, treacherous betrayal against our Lord and Saviour, how can he possibly be saved? Well, the same way that all of us are saved…

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.



By believing in Jesus Christ with faith alone. His sacrifice, the blood on the cross, is sufficient to wash away all sins. Even if Judas is in Sheol, the realm of the dead, after his suicide, he can still believe in Christ Jesus and have the Holy Spirit enter his body, so he can be made clean to go to Heaven. This will happen, as the Bible tells us that Christ shall be all in all! Yes, even in the most treacherous of traitors!

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all His enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.



All traitors in the whole world will become believers in Christ and be washed of all their sins! This includes Judas Iscariot! Everyone, ever, that has existed, exists, will exist, thus will guaranteed become believers in Jesus and all of them will have permanent life! Each and every one of those who have committed any act of betrayal will be washed of their sin by the holy blood of Christ and therefore allowed to enter the gates of Heaven into the holy city of New Jerusalem.

Psalm 30:5 For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.

Judas Iscariot may have been weeping, battered by grief for a moment. This weeping may have led him to suicide. But eventually, he will be saved. He will have faith in Christ Jesus as the saviour for his sins.

Luke 15:4: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"

Judas Iscariot is like that lost sheep. Even if 99% of people on Earth are saved, if Judas Iscariot, if even the most treacherous traitors are not saved, Jesus Christ will not stop saving people until 100% of 100% of people on Earth are saved. All = all. 100% = 100%. We are all sheep to the Lord, and He is our Holy Shepard. We will all have faith in Him, the Lord of Hosts, and be washed from death, and be made clean with permanent life.

Revelation 5:13: "And I [John] heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'

Judas is lost forever. God said he was and is the son of perdition. Judas never biblically repented (meta-noia) he just felt bad repented (metamellomai).

Judas is lost.

 

[Davy]

God doesn't accidentally create bad fruit.

Right, and that is why God Himself said about Satan while using the "king of Tyrus" as a symbolic title for him...

Ezek 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
KJV

What did GOD say there above in red?

God did NOT... create Satan to be "bad fruit". That is YOU trying to ADD to the Scriptures YOUR OWN THEORY. Not only have you failed to understand the above, but you obviously do not understand what Satan did to rebel against God originally, nor HOW it was possible for Satan to rebel.

 

[Davy]

God created Satan as a holy angel without sin, but with a will and the ability to choose whether to obey Him or not. Lucifer became evil due to self-generated pride. This represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe, preceding the fall of Adam by an indeterminate time. God did not create evil, but allowed for the possibility of evil.

Right.

Even with Satan and the angels, God did not create them like robots to love Him. It ain't real love if it has to be forced. This is the mystery of God creating us with free will to love Him, or not.

It appears in the future new heavens a new earth, God is going to make those remaining "a joy", removing any possibility of rebellion in His future eternity...

Isa 65:17-19
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
KJV

 

[ButterflyJones]

Right, and that is why God Himself said about Satan while using the "king of Tyrus" as a symbolic title for him...

Ezek 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
KJV

What did GOD say there above in red?

God did NOT... create Satan to be "bad fruit". That is YOU trying to ADD to the Scriptures YOUR OWN THEORY. Not only have you failed to understand the above, but you obviously do not understand what Satan did to rebel against God originally, nor HOW it was possible for Satan to rebel.

Good post. :)

What Does the Bible Say About King Of Tyrus?

Bible verses about King Of Tyrus

www.openbible.info

 

[Davy]

Judas is lost forever. God said he was and is the son of perdition. Judas never biblically repented (meta-noia) he just felt bad repented (metamellomai).

Judas is lost.

We do not know that. Judas has NOT been judged to perish in the lake of fire yet. No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet.

And we have no authority to condemn anyone to the future destruction of the "lake of fire". Only Christ Jesus has that Authority. So you need to be careful of going around saying who all is going to burn and who is not.

And in 2 Thessalonians 2 when Apostle Paul used that "son of perdition" title about a future coming false one, AFTER Judas had been dead, then just who was Paul pointing it to?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think that God uses Satan as a part of our development. For instance, God permitted Satan to torment "Job" as he permits Satan to do to all people. God created Satan with the full knowledge of everything he would do. None of what Satan does is a surprise to God.

Free will was never entirely free.....it was conditional, as was the continuation of life itself. The opportunity to go on living indefinitely, was dependent upon continuing to obey the Creator day after day.....an act of disobedience was like treason...a failure to honor a commitment made of our own volition to our Sovereign ruler.....loyalty and obedience to his laws was expected...no! Demanded.
What happens to those accused of treason even today? It is seen as an unforgivable sin against your ruling authority. How much more then should it apply to God?

God doesn't accidentally create bad fruit. Satan is a tool of God to serve his purposes. You have the mistaken belief that Satan, on his own initiative and against God's wishes, went his own way. No, God created Satan to do exactly what he's doing.

That cannot be true Patrick....since every creative day was deemed to be a success from God's standpoint. He did not create things that are defective...he created beings who are autonomous...free willed.....even the angels, or they could not participate in evil things....as satan, his angels and the first humans demonstrated, free will can be abused, with catastrophic results. So it requires more than blind obedience because if love for God is lacking, and love of self takes over, we fall victim to what caused the original sin. (Ezekiel 28:15, 17)

The devil was a perfect angel when he was created, but he abused his free will to steal something from his Creator....man's trust, and loyalty and ultimately, his worship, since whatever does not go to the true God, goes to the pretender by default.

17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

This is talking about the "trees" that man plants. The "trees" planted by God only bear good fruit. Man-made beliefs and traditions are what corrupts humanity in many different ways and they cause division.....the holy spirit is a uniting force and all "Christians" would therefore be united instead of the disunited rabble we see, mentioned by Jesus as the "weeds" of his parable, sown by the devil . (Matt 13:24-30, 36-42)

Then God created bad fruit and so Jesus was wrong when he said that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

Faulty thinking there....Jesus was referring to the Pharisees in that passage....they were the producers of rotten fruit, misleading the entire nation of Israel down a wrong path, resulting to the vast majority acceding to the murder of their own Messiah on the say-so of these sons of the devil. Jesus said that these will not "escape the judgment of Gehenna" (Matt 23:33) and neither will Judas.

The 'lake of fire' is open and receiving those who fail to accept the truth. It is not a literal place, but simply a symbol of eternal death. Those Pharisees whom Jesus condemned will never receive a resurrection because those who are thrown into Gehenna, never wake up.....it will be as though they never existed. Why would God want to remember those who stubbornly cling to false ideas manufactured by his adversary. That is what satan is...God's chief adversary.....the one who opposes him in all things.

The devil put Job through trials that would have broken most of us, but for the sake of those who would read his story in later times, he allowed the devil to do what he knew in advance that this man's faith could stand. (1 Cor 10:13) His example is there to show us what real faith is all about....because the devil has no new tricks.

 

[ButterflyJones]

We do not know that. Judas has NOT been judged to perish in the lake of fire yet. No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet.

And we have no authority to condemn anyone to the future destruction of the "lake of fire". Only Christ Jesus has that Authority. So you need to be careful of going around saying who all is going to burn and who is not.

And in 2 Thessalonians 2 when Apostle Paul used that "son of perdition" title about a future coming false one, AFTER Judas had been dead, then just who was Paul pointing it to?

Bravo to that bold part especially. I was hoping someone would catch that. Well done.

No one is yet judged and in Hell. Revelation.
.

 

[RLT63]

Free will was never entirely free.....it was conditional, as was the continuation of life itself. The opportunity to go on living indefinitely, was dependent upon continuing to obey the Creator day after day.....an act of disobedience was like treason...a failure to honor a commitment made of our own volition to our Sovereign ruler.....loyalty and obedience to his laws was expected...no! Demanded.
What happens to those accused of treason even today? It is seen as an unforgivable sin against your ruling authority. How much more then should it apply to God?

That cannot be true Patrick....since every creative day was deemed to be a success from God's standpoint. He did not create things that are defective...he created beings who are autonomous...free willed.....even the angels, or they could not participate in evil things....as satan, his angels and the first humans demonstrated, free will can be abused, with catastrophic results. So it requires more than blind obedience because if love for God is lacking, and love of self takes over, we fall victim to what caused the original sin. (Ezekiel 28:15, 17)

The devil was a perfect angel when he was created, but he abused his free will to steal something from his Creator....man's trust, and loyalty and ultimately, his worship, since whatever does not go to the true God, goes to the pretender by default.

This is talking about the "trees" that man plants. The "trees" planted by God only bear good fruit. Man-made beliefs and traditions are what corrupts humanity in many different ways and they cause division.....the holy spirit is a uniting force and all "Christians" would therefore be united instead of the disunited rabble we see, mentioned by Jesus as the "weeds" of his parable, sown by the devil . (Matt 13:24-30, 36-42)

Faulty thinking there....Jesus was referring to the Pharisees in that passage....they were the producers of rotten fruit, misleading the entire nation of Israel down a wrong path, resulting to the vast majority acceding to the murder of their own Messiah on the say-so of these sons of the devil. Jesus said that these will not "escape the judgment of Gehenna" (Matt 23:33) and neither will Judas.

The 'lake of fire' is open and receiving those who fail to accept the truth. It is not a literal place, but simply a symbol of eternal death. Those Pharisees whom Jesus condemned will never receive a resurrection because those who are thrown into Gehenna, never wake up.....it will be as though they never existed. Why would God want to remember those who stubbornly cling to false ideas manufactured by his adversary. That is what satan is...God's chief adversary.....the one who opposes him in all things.

The devil put Job through trials that would have broken most of us, but for the sake of those who would read his story in later times, he allowed the devil to do what he knew in advance that this man's faith could stand. (1 Cor 10:13) His example is there to show us what real faith is all about....because the devil has no new tricks.

I was in agreement with most of this post except for the slur against other denominations and the disbelief in Hell