70 AD revisited

[Eternally Grateful]

Right. But, somehow, a future event will involve things that are worse than that and other horrible things that happened at that time? Uh, no, I don't think so. Are people just afraid to read about what happened at that time or what? They severely underestimate how terrible it was. Yet, they have never read about it, either.


Right.

so medical experiments on living Jews who were cut open alive like we used to cut open frogs in school is not greater?

being led alive into heat chambers and cooked alive is not worse

being led alive into gas chambers and watching your kids die horrific deaths is not worse.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

With the way you seem to be thinking about this, how could any event in the future be worse than the flood in Noah's day where only 8 people in the world survived? Is that really the context in which Jesus was speaking?

Lets see.

The time of Jacobs trouble,. in which there will be none like it.. an OT prophecy

In jesus own words

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Jesus himself saying nothing in history has been like it.. it will be so bad, no flesh would survive (he did nto say people. he said flesh. life.. on earth)

and your making this argument?

8 people is more than 0 people.

2 animals of every kind is more than no animals would survive if the time was cut short.

come on man.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Read Matthew 24:15-26. It's not His return that cuts the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21 short. Jesus indicated that there would be things that would happen some time after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21 was cut short and some of those things are described in verses 23-26 (the rise of false Christs and false prophets who were so deceptive that they could possibly even deceive the elect). Also, if you look at the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24a you can see that "the times of the Gentiles" would follow the great tribulation that Jesus described. So, He never said that His return is what puts an end to the great tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24a.

birth pangs, the rise of false prophets etc. will be occurring, when we see them, we know the end is near.

the sign is the abomination of desolation. This has not yet happened until this day!


THEN there will be great tribulation. such has never been before. And if the time was not cut short. NO FLESH would survive.

THEN the world sees the son of man as he returns

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right. There's just many examples of horrific things that happend at that time. If people would just take the time to read about the kinds of atrocities that happened at that time, they can then realize that it's silly to think that anything worse will ever happen in terms of atrocities committed by people against other people.

you do not read the news much do you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have a study where I go through verse by verse comparing it to history.

When you put Matthew 24 and line it up with the six seals in Revelation chapter 6 you will see the similarities

thats great. because the 6 seals are yet future..

 

[CadyandZoe]

I've been sharing this forever. But for the sake of any new readers I will repost this.

If you will compare Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse it appears to me that Jesus interpreted the "People of the ruler to come" as the Roman Army who, under the Roman general, destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD. Jesus said, in that Discourse, that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies. That happened twice, once in 66 AD and again, in 70 AD. The 1st approach to Jerusalem by the Roman Army gave warning to Christian believers in Israel to escape to the nearby mountains. This they did by leaving for Pella, an area beyond the reach of the invading Army.

I've been relentlessly attacked by strict Futurists and called a Preterist for this belief. But this was the predominant belief in the Early Church. Only a couple of Church Fathers projected the "70th Week of Dan 9" to be something future (Irenaeus and Hippolytus). Largely, the entire 70 Weeks Prophecy has been interpreted to be fulfilled in the time in and around Jesus' earthly ministry, which was completed at the cross, and followed by the judgment of the Jewish People in 70 AD.

For the record, historical interpretations like this does not make one a Preterist, and I am not--not even a Partial Preterist. Nor does it make one a strict Historicist Interpreter--I'm not that either. It's just that some prophecies were, in fact, fulfilled historically, such as the 586 BC destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Some prophecies remain future--not the 70 Weeks Prophecy, however, in my opinion.

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it.

In my view, the Roman Leader "confirmed" God's covenant of destruction upon the Jewish People for breaking their agreement under the Law. And he began by having the Jewish Messiah killed, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

What this plainly says is that the "Great Tribulation," so often cited by strict Futurists as the Reign of Antichrist, actually began as a punishment against the Jewish People. And this led to an age-long Diaspora of the Jewish People, until the Gentile nations have had their opportunity to be nations of God, and God tires of their own apostacies and hostilities towards the Jewish People.

I've been relentlessly attacked by strict Futurists and called a Preterist for this belief.
I hear you. I once bought a book written by Steve Gregg called "Revelation: four views." In my edition, the four views were represented by an hourglass. Preterism was represented by an hourglass with all the sand at the bottom.

I disagree with those who characterize your view as Preterism since you don't believe that all prophecy has come to pass. You and I are exploring a fifth view of Revelation, and I encourage you to maintain your effort.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL!! Read very very very slowly===For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).

Some people picture the GT as a short period of very intense anguish. That is three and one-half years of the most intense form of anguish anyone has ever experienced. However, the picture Jesus seems to paint is a very long period of anguish. The GT isn't a more intense source of anguish than the world has ever seen. The GT is a more extended period of anguish than the world has ever seen.

As Jesus says, "unless the time of calamity is shortened . . ." indicating the duration, not the intensity of the GT.

The GT actually began with the stoning of Stephan and continues even today.

Acts 11:19-20

So those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who came to Antioch and began speaking to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus. ​

The GT is centrally and primarily focused on Christians and Jews because they believe in and worship Jesus, the Messiah, and Yahweh. The GT is nothing more and nothing less than the persecution of God's people. It began with Stephen and is still taking place. This persecution will continue, as Jesus said, until His Second coming.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Some people picture the GT as a short period of very intense anguish. That is three and one-half years of the most intense form of anguish anyone has ever experienced. However, the picture Jesus seems to paint is a very long period of anguish. The GT isn't a more intense source of anguish than the world has ever seen. The GT is a more extended period of anguish than the world has ever seen.

As Jesus says, "unless the time of calamity is shortened . . ." indicating the duration, not the intensity of the GT.

The GT actually began with the stoning of Stephan and continues even today.

Acts 11:19-20

So those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who came to Antioch and began speaking to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus. ​

The GT is centrally and primarily focused on Christians and Jews because they believe in and worship Jesus, the Messiah, and Yahweh. The GT is nothing more and nothing less than the persecution of God's people. It began with Stephen and is still taking place. This persecution will continue, as Jesus said, until His Second coming.

Jesus mentions Dan 9

the abomination of desolation comes in the middle of the 7 year period.

the end of the 7 year period ends with the Prince being destroyed (the return of Christ)

Jesus said the tribulation will follow the abomination of desolation (3.5 years in the last 7 year period)

and that it will end at his return.

hence basic math shows the great tribulation will be short lived. 3.5 year period between the future prince of Rome revealing himself by standing in the holy place. and the time he is destroyed at the return of Christ.

people try to make things difficult and do not just read what is written. its not that hard

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus mentions Dan 9

the abomination of desolation comes in the middle of the 7 year period.

the end of the 7 year period ends with the Prince being destroyed (the return of Christ)

Jesus said the tribulation will follow the abomination of desolation (3.5 years in the last 7 year period)

and that it will end at his return.

hence basic math shows the great tribulation will be short lived. 3.5 year period between the future prince of Rome revealing himself by standing in the holy place. and the time he is destroyed at the return of Christ.

people try to make things difficult and do not just read what is written. its not that hard

I see it differently. Does the Abomination of Desolation come in the middle of the 7-year Period? I don't think so. At least Daniel 9 doesn't mention the AOD. Rather, Daniel mentions the AOD in chapter 11, (Daniel 11:31) which is a prediction of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

Daniel 9 predicts the destruction of the temple, which God performs because Israel failed to complete the tasks assigned to her.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Since Israel failed to complete the tasks listed above, God allowed his temple to be destroyed.

Tasks:

1. to finish the transgression -- failed
2. to make an end of sin -- failed
3. to make atonement for iniquity -- success
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness -- failed
5. to seal up vision and prophecy -- failed
6. to anoint the holiest -- failed

Israel failed to bring about most of the list above. Jesus accomplished number 3, at the cross. The rest will happen in the future, but they weren't completed within the 490-year time period which is why God allowed the Romans to destroy the temple and the nation. The Kingdom was taken from the Scribes and Pharisees as Jesus predicted. Matthew 21:43 The House of Jerusalem was left desolate as Jesus predicted. Matthew 23:38

Nothing in Daniel about the length of the tribulation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I see it differently. Does the Abomination of Desolation come in the middle of the 7-year Period? I don't think so. At least Daniel 9 doesn't mention the AOD. Rather, Daniel mentions the AOD in chapter 11, (Daniel 11:31) which is a prediction of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

Dan 9:
Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

here is the abomination of desolation Jesus spoke of.

Daniel 9 predicts the destruction of the temple, which God performs because Israel failed to complete the tasks assigned to her.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Since Israel failed to complete the tasks listed above, God allowed his temple to be destroyed.

Tasks:

1. to finish the transgression -- failed
2. to make an end of sin -- failed
3. to make atonement for iniquity -- success
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness -- failed
5. to seal up vision and prophecy -- failed
6. to anoint the holiest -- failed

Israel failed to bring about most of the list above. Jesus accomplished number 3, at the cross. The rest will happen in the future, but they weren't completed within the 490-year time period which is why God allowed the Romans to destroy the temple and the nation. The Kingdom was taken from the Scribes and Pharisees as Jesus predicted. Matthew 21:43 The House of Jerusalem was left desolate as Jesus predicted. Matthew 23:38

Nothing in Daniel about the length of the tribulation.

you act as if it is a fail pass score. thats not the news that was given to Daniel. He said at the end of the 70 weeks. these things WILL take place.

Israel was already in sin.. Jesus said the 70 weeks would be given to end that sin

the time of Jacobs trouble is a time of great tribulation. of which israel will be saved out of it.

the destruction of the city and sanctuary occures after messiah is cut off (the end of the 69th week) and before the begining of the 1 week covenant. which is the 70th week

the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of that week

 

[covenantee]

ahh so you will fallow the roman catholic church? instead of biblical truth?

that answers alot..

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So you believe that when Paul referred to the saints, he was referring to the "roman catholic church".

Keep those Bible smarts coming.

 

[covenantee]

lol. I will take what the word of God says.

When do you plan to start?

I was warned about following men..

So why are you worshiping Darby and Scofield? They were men.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So you believe that when Paul referred to the saints, he was referring to the "roman catholic church".

Keep those Bible smarts coming.

read your church history.

You will read rome.

they took over and destroyed anyone or anything that did not agree with them.

so you are following their doctrines if you are following history.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When do you plan to start?

So why are you worshiping Darby and Scofield? They were men.

I follow the word of God.

I do not follow men..

test each spirit to see if they are from God or not.

You have not given me any reason to change my view.. but feel free to show me in the word where I am wrong.

 

[covenantee]

how can this be when the people of the prince who is to come destroy the city and sanctuary BEFORE the 70th week begins?

How can this be when the 70th week ended almost 2,000 years ago?

If you think 70 AD was more severe than WW2, you have a serious problem..

From the Jewish Virtual LIbrary:

"While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

Give just one example from WW2 where the Jews made war, and inflicted immense casualties, on themselves.

Just one example.

 

[covenantee]

read your church history.

You will read rome.

they took over and destroyed anyone or anything that did not agree with them.

so you are following their doctrines if you are following history.

So you believe that Paul was a roman catholic because he referred to saints.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Dan 9:
Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

here is the abomination of desolation Jesus spoke of.

In Daniel 9, "abominations" is plural.

you act as if it is a fail pass score. thats not the news that was given to Daniel. He said at the end of the 70 weeks. these things WILL take place.

Did Daniel say they would take place? I used to think that until I read the prophecy more carefully. Did Jesus put an end to sin? When does Jesus actually put an end to sin? According to Paul, sin continues until Jesus defeats the final enemy: death. 1 Corinthians 15.

the time of Jacobs trouble is a time of great tribulation. of which israel will be saved out of it.

the destruction of the city and sanctuary occures after messiah is cut off (the end of the 69th week) and before the begining of the 1 week covenant. which is the 70th week

the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of that week

The Abomination of desolation is in Daniel 11. On the wing of abominations" is in Daniel 9. Jesus has already strengthened the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How can this be when the 70th week ended almost 2,000 years ago?

how can that be when it has not even started yet?

From the Jewish Virtual LIbrary:

"While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

Give just one example from WW2 where the Jews made war, and inflicted immense casualties, on themselves.

Just one example.

how about we stick to the word of God??

dan 9:
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;

This happened on the cross.. which happened after messiah the prince was introduced as riding a donkey in his entrance to jerusalem as prophesied.


And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

This happened almost 40 year after messiah was cut off

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

War desolation have been and continue to be up until this day. Jesus called them wars and rumers of wars. nation will go against nation and kingdom against kingdom

We are not given a time period for how long this will take place, although it is determined (By God)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

he, is the prince who is to come, who comes from the people who destroyed the city, the one week is the final 7 years or the 70th week. which happens AFTER the stuff previously spoken of


But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

The abomination of desolation spoken of By Jesus in matt 24. occurs in the middle of the 7 year period

Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


This time is determined also.. And at the end, will be the consumation that is poured on the desolate. this is the return of Christ to punish evil and destroy the final world power the beast of daniel and revelation.

its not rocket science. all we have to do is read in sequence

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you believe that Paul was a roman catholic because he referred to saints.

what does paul have to do with this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And nobody before you did, right?

You worship Darby and Scofield, whose heresies you are espousing.

You follow roman catholicism and the anti-semetism they espoused.

2 can play that game my friend

lets stick to the word and stop trying to assume things..