70 AD revisited

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Randy Kluth

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I've been sharing this forever. But for the sake of any new readers I will repost this.

If you will compare Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse it appears to me that Jesus interpreted the "People of the ruler to come" as the Roman Army who, under the Roman general, destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD. Jesus said, in that Discourse, that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies. That happened twice, once in 66 AD and again, in 70 AD. The 1st approach to Jerusalem by the Roman Army gave warning to Christian believers in Israel to escape to the nearby mountains. This they did by leaving for Pella, an area beyond the reach of the invading Army.

I've been relentlessly attacked by strict Futurists and called a Preterist for this belief. But this was the predominant belief in the Early Church. Only a couple of Church Fathers projected the "70th Week of Dan 9" to be something future (Irenaeus and Hippolytus). Largely, the entire 70 Weeks Prophecy has been interpreted to be fulfilled in the time in and around Jesus' earthly ministry, which was completed at the cross, and followed by the judgment of the Jewish People in 70 AD.

For the record, historical interpretations like this does not make one a Preterist, and I am not--not even a Partial Preterist. Nor does it make one a strict Historicist Interpreter--I'm not that either. It's just that some prophecies were, in fact, fulfilled historically, such as the 586 BC destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Some prophecies remain future--not the 70 Weeks Prophecy, however, in my opinion.

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it.

In my view, the Roman Leader "confirmed" God's covenant of destruction upon the Jewish People for breaking their agreement under the Law. And he began by having the Jewish Messiah killed, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


What this plainly says is that the "Great Tribulation," so often cited by strict Futurists as the Reign of Antichrist, actually began as a punishment against the Jewish People. And this led to an age-long Diaspora of the Jewish People, until the Gentile nations have had their opportunity to be nations of God, and God tires of their own apostacies and hostilities towards the Jewish People.
 

GISMYS_7

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Think just a little ----we have never seen these days of great tribulation yet.
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
 

Randy Kluth

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Think just a little ----we have never seen these days of great tribulation yet.
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
My point, brother, was that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish People while they were still under the Law. He was telling them their temple worship would be destroyed, and that they would be exiled and scattered *throughout the NT age!* This age-long tribulation he called "the Great Tribulation," and said it would be shortened, in order to save the Jewish people. We know how pogroms in Russia and attempts at exterminating Jews under Nazi Germany threatened the future of the Jewish People. This will come to an end at Jesus' Return.

What made this particular Tribulation the worst in Jewish history is the fact it has lasted longer than any prior punishment of the Jewish People. For example, compare it with the 70 years of Babylonian Captivity--no comparison!! The Jewish Diaspora of the NT Era has threatened the Jewish existence like no prior punishment God had laid upon the Jewish People for their intransigence and apostasy. But it will come to an end, I believe, with a national return to covenant relationship with God through Jesus, their Messiah.
 
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GISMYS_7

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Anyone that does not see and know that this is future prophecy is far beyond my help.
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
 
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Randy Kluth

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Anyone that does not see and know that this is future prophecy is far beyond my help.
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
Who is looking for your "help?" Are you a self-appointed "help?" This is a forum for discussion. If you are unable to deal with different perspectives, perhaps you should open up your own chat room and censor any view but your own?
 

covenantee

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My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.… James 5:19-20
Who are the sinners? :laughing:

1. The clear majority of historical orthodox Christian expositors who understood the significance and reality of 70 AD.
2. Modernist futurist armchair deniers bereft of historical knowledge and understanding.

Do you need a hint?
 

GISMYS_7

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This scripture prophecy IS future events==
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).==Yes 70 AD was bad but nothing like the events of the Great tribulation.
 

covenantee

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Anyone that does not see and know that this is future prophecy is far beyond my help.
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
"I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world."

Wars of the Jews, V.10.5
 

covenantee

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This scripture prophecy IS future events==
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).==Yes 70 AD was bad but nothing like the events of the Great tribulation.
Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Judaean Christians fled then.
Because then was great tribulation.

Not in dispensationalism's fantasy future.
 
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GISMYS_7

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LOL!! Read very very very slowly===For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
 

covenantee

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LOL!! Read very very very slowly===For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
Laugh's on you. Take a kindergarten course in English to learn about tenses.

If you pass, then read Wars of the Jews as well to learn some history.

As hard as that is for futurists.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Think just a little ----we have never seen these days of great tribulation yet.
  • “For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
What is the context of that verse? Is it regional in scope or global? The preceding verses indicate that it's referring to great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea in particular, not the entire world. Jesus said that people in Judea would need to flee, not people everywhere. This means that Jesus was talking about something happening in that area in particular that would be as bad as anything that had ever happened before. And, if you read about the kind of atrocities that occurred in that area around 70 AD, then you would see that there is a sense in which what happened then was indeed as bad as anything that had ever happened before or will ever happen again.
 

Randy Kluth

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LOL!! Read very very very slowly===For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones” (Matthew 24:21-22).
When you laugh out loud trying to carry on a "charitable" conversation with other believers who disagree with you why don't you just ask them why they believe what they believe, as opposed to insulting them as if they can't think any other way than the way you think? Why don't *you* listen carefully, then, if that's how you wish to be treated yourself?

I believe the Great Tribulation is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era. Both believing Jews and unbelieving Jews have been going through this. Christians suffer in some ways only the way Christians suffer, being persecuted by Jewish and non-Jewish unbelievers.

In other ways, all Jews suffer the dislocation caused by the rebellion of the Jewish Majority. They are left defenseless in foreign lands. Any way you look it, this is the worst punishment the Jews, as a whole, have suffered in history, by its regular threat to their existence but also by the sheer length of time it has lasted.

It is for the sake of *believing Jews* that this process will come to an end. It is also for the sake of those among the Jews who have *yet to become Christians* that this age-long punishment will come to an end.

It is also for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that Israel will be restored to nationhood in covenant with God. They are indeed the "elect of God"--they and all those who will ultimately share their faith among the Jewish People.

You do not have to agree with me brother. But if you wish to behave like a brother, then you should at least try to be respectful towards those who disagree with you. I wish to try. Why don't you?
 

Eternally Grateful

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My point, brother, was that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish People while they were still under the Law. He was telling them their temple worship would be destroyed, and that they would be exiled and scattered *throughout the NT age!* This age-long tribulation he called "the Great Tribulation," and said he would be shortened, in order to save the Jewish people. We know how pogroms in Russia and attempts at exterminating Jews under Nazi Germany threatened the future of the Jewish People. This will come to an end at Jesus' Return.

What made this particular Tribulation the worst in Jewish history is the fact it has lasted longer than any prior punishment of the Jewish People. For example, compare it with the 70 years of Babylonian Captivity--no comparison!! The Jewish Diaspora of the NT Era has threatened the Jewish existence like no prior punishment God had laid upon the Jewish People for their intransigence and apostasy. But it will come to an end, I believe, with a national return to covenant relationship with God through Jesus, their Messiah.
WW2 was far greater a tribulation than even 70 AD if we look to just israel.

But in Matt 24. Jesus is talking to all who are living. He also said he would cut the time short by his return.. the 70th week will end with the return of Christ.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Who are the sinners? :laughing:

1. The clear majority of historical orthodox Christian expositors who understood the significance and reality of 70 AD.
2. Modernist futurist armchair deniers bereft of historical knowledge and understanding.

Do you need a hint?
Number 1. who fail to look at history and see that what is spoken of in prophecy has not till this day occured yet
 

Eternally Grateful

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Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Judaean Christians fled then.
Because then was great tribulation.

Not in dispensationalism's fantasy future.
the tribulation that occured THEN was not the greatest that has ever been

Jesus also did not return then.
 

Randy Kluth

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WW2 was far greater a tribulation than even 70 AD if we look to just israel.

But in Matt 24. Jesus is talking to all who are living. He also said he would cut the time short by his return.. the 70th week will end with the return of Christ.
Did you read what I said? I said the NT Diaspora of the Jews has been the worst punishment in Israel's history! By comparison, the Babylonian exile only lasted 70 years. We are now close to 2000 years since the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the symbol of their covenant with God--the temple!

Not only so, but there have been *many* incidences in NT history in which the existence of the Jews was itself threatened, including the Holocaust under the Nazis. How could any prior Jewish Punishment compare? Do you understand my argument? I'm not saying you have to agree with it.