70 weeks

[lloydnook]

(kkboldt;64667)
There are NO passages in the Bible which state "Satan will claim to be God". NONE. Zip, zilch, nada!There are passages in which people try to FIT Satan into, but the words "Satan, devil, dragon, serpent, are NEVER used in those passages. Those passages are referring to a "man" who "elevates his EARTHLY throne to heaven". The Kings of Babylon, and later Caesar and the Pope. WHY? Because their kingdoms are of BABYLON! The BEAST kingdoms of the Prophet Daniel!How do we know this? Revelation, chapter 13, chapter 18, etc.Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the BEAST: for it is the number of A MAN; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.Whenever the Bible refers to Satan, it either actually uses the name, "Satan", or his namesakes, "The Devil, The Dragon, "that ole Serpent".Note: Satan is NOT mentioned in that chapter either. Neither is he mentioned in Isaiah OR Ezekiel.The name "Satan" means "adversary". It does NOT mean "Stand in for God".I'll tell you who's name DOES mean "stand in for God". That is the name of the Pope, "Vicarious Filii Dei", which means "stand in for God" or "victor of God". Which is written over the door of the "secret chambers" of the Pope. Don't you SEE? A MAN has ALREADY claimed to be GOD! Yes, the Pope claims to be God! AND he IS worshipped as God by hundreds of millions of people around the world! Even world politicians!The FIRST BEAST is ROME who "made war with the saints". The SECOND Beast is the Papacy which ALSO made war with saints during the Inquisitions. The blood of the saints are ON THESE TWO BEASTS! It was during this time in which the persecution of the Saints occurred and none other time in history!THIS is the man who sits in his "tabernacle". He had two horns like a lamb, but spoke as a dragon. And he deceives the whole earth. He "elevates his EARTHLY throne to HEAVEN."!Rome was named after the She-Wolf and her children, Romulus and Remus. Jesus said, "BEWARE of WOLVES that come to you in sheep's clothing"!He also said, "if he calls you from the SECRET CHAMBERS, do NOT believe it!"It is estimated that there are over 200 MILLION Roman Catholics in the world today in EVERY country they can be found. They LOOK and ACT like sheep but inward are as "ravenous wolves".The Papacy caused everyone to receive a mark on their foreheads or their hands. This was the MARK of the ASH. Catholics to this day still put the Mark of the ASH on the FOREHEADS or their hands on ASH WEDNESDAY, the beginning of LENT. NO ONE could buy or sell unless they had this mark! The Vatican Banking system was begun back then. The SAME banking system we have to this day! One of the required reading materials in the Catholic church is a book entitled, "The Richest Man in Babylon"! Look it up on Google if you don't believe me! Yes! They KNOW their money system is based on the ancient Babylonian money system. How can this be much more plain?! The Vatican along with priests, cardinals, bishops and nuns invest in the world Stock Markets! The Mark of the Ash is the ancient PAGAN practice from the Zoarastrians who were where? In BABYLON!He also changed the times and the seasons. The HEBREW calendar first changed to the Roman calendar THEN to the GREGORIAN Calendar, AND the HOLY Days were changed.Christ's birth went from sometime in the Fall to December 25th.....with Constantine. and so on. Pope Gregory I came to power around 666 AD and instituted the Gregorian calendar of which we STILL use to this day!The Pope's name Vicarious Filii Dei in Roman numerals adds up to 666. Nero's Roman name ALSO added up to 666.THESE things have ALREADY happened!The Roman Catholics still to this day, place the ASH on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday! I personally witnessed these things. My own grandmother was a Roman Catholic. I witnessed coworkers with ASH on the foreheads who were Catholic.It's ALREADY happening before our very eyes! Are we paying attention?!!! Or still blindly looking for some BIG supernatural event?! The Pharisees asked Jesus to give them a "sign". Why? Because they were TOO BLIND to see the signs that were ALREADY there!Anti-Christ has ALREADY come! That "son of perdition" is ALREADY here! The SIGNS are ALREADY manifested!And NO WHERE in the Bible, does it say that the Anti-Christ is SATAN. NO where!It's NOT there! I don't care how many verses you try to make FIT this, they DO NOT fit!The Dragon gives this MAN his power, but he is NOT the Dragon himself!Prove me wrong! Someone once proved me wrong and that's why I now understand what I've stated above.Kim
Lloydnook:Rev. 2:V. 12 And to the angel of the church in (a)Pergamos write: these things saith He which hath the sharp sword with two edgesa) Pergamos: a city of Mysia famous for the worship of AEscrilapius, to whom the title of "soter" (SAVIOUR) was given and whose emblem was the serpent! Identified with Apollo (Acts 16:16.) It is reported the Babylonian pagan priesthood removed to Pergamos, and it became/ will become the earthly centre of Satan induced powers, i.e. mediums/ wizards/ divination and supernatural powers of all sorts. ALL OF WHICH ARE AN ABOMINATION TO THE ALMIGHTY (Deut. 18:11) (Lev. 19:31, 20:27.)Pergamos, Greek, (Pergamum) Rev. 2:12,13. (Now Bergamo.)Pergamum existed at least from 500 BC, but became important only in the Hellenistic age. (Greek Empire 338 – 146 BC.) (See Dan. 2.) At this time it was the residence of the Attalid dynasty, with their fortress and palace on the peak of the hill. The town was on the lower slopes. (Under the Romans the city was on the plain below.) The Attalids had formal autonomy. Initially they ruled as vassals of the Seleucid's Kingdom. Attalid territory around Pergamum (Mysia) greatly expanded by 188 BC which included Lydia (excluding most Greek coastal cities,) part of Phrygia, Lycaonia, and Pisidia. In 133 BC the kingdom was bequeathed to Rome, due to no heir. Under the Attalids the city of Pergamum became one of the most important and beautiful of all Greek cities in the Hellenistic age. The city planning was outstanding. The library was second only to Alexandria.Notable facts are:- Contained Temple of Athena Nicephorus, also Hera & Demeter.- Contained great Alter to Zeus (Father of Apollo) and the chief god.- Predictably, humanistic scholarship developed (E.B. Macropaedia, Vol. 8 page 1172c.) Attalus ruled most of the Seleucid kingdom north of the Taurus mountains from (228 – 223 B.C.)The fact the Bible in Revelation 2:13 places Satan's Throne at this site is of great future significance. It is also of great significance that the priesthood of Babylon relocated to Pergamum historically! They are the servants of Satan historically, and all pagan worship originates from Babylon, and has spread to all points of the compass in various guises. Notably Buddhism, Islam, Hindu, Sun and Star Worship in various forms from Egypt, Asia and South America, etc. All pagan worship is of the Enemy, and has only one purpose which is rebellion against the One True God, the Almighty. Its aim is to ensnare all mankind, to elevate Satan against the Almighty, and attempt to bring to nothing the great and loving work of our Saviour, Christ Jesus. As Satan has yet to be ejected from the heavens, he has yet to take up his earthly throne at Pergamum. When Satan sets up his throne in this ancient Greek site, he will be at the epi-centre of his spiritual stronghold, which is why in the period after Christ's ascension, so much effort was expended by Paul etc., "in taking the battle to the Enemy," at his main location. That area will again be central in the yet future (Zech. 9:13.) Prior to his defeat, the Antichrist will hold sway in Jerusalem, with Satan probably simultaneously in Pergamum. Satan cannot be enthroned in Jerusalem, unless he brings to naught the promises of Jehovah, which would now entail the complete destruction of all Israel. His emissary will attempt just that, i.e."70th week of years," Daniel 9.

 

[OLd Sage]

(Christina;63847)

.. well while I wasnt alive when Israel became a nation I do have a few grey hairs myself. While its true that we do have 3 generations listed in scripture 40,70,120Its possable you may be correct.I see 2096-40= 2056 making it.. 106 years oldbut 96 or 106 is not the average life span of a gen.today.. so I am not convinced I also am not sure how you could be so sure of your Jubilees when no one is sure of the Jubilee Dates/years not even the Jews from what I have read there are a couple differnt ideas about this. But no one can really be sure. And yes I agree about the shortening but the timing of the week isnt shortened the tribulation itself is shortened.
Christina,To understand the Jubilees, you need to understand the Sabbath Laws, given by God to Moses. (Ex.23:10-17, Lev. 23, & 25:1-13*, 26:34,35, 42-46) As I stated in my first post, my timeline of the Seventy Weeks, after the weeks of 62 (62 x 7 = 434 years) to 7 B.C./3753C.E. my timeline continues from 7 B.C. to 70 A.D./3830C.E. as a Week of Seventy seven years. I noted 6 B.C. as the birth of Jesus, (the Annointed One) because we know from the Word, a decree was issued for all newborns two years and younger to be killed, issued by Herod. (a study of Herod I, reveals he died in 4 B.C.) Also in 6 B.C. there was the Roman Census, and a Jubilee year. (*Lev. 25:13) Mary's family home was in Bethlehem, Joseph's family home was in Jerusalem, an angel appeared to Joseph, and they fled to Egypt, after Herod died, the angel appeared in a dream again to Joseph, and told them to go to Galilee, in a town called Nazareth.So from the giving of the Sabbath Laws, to Moses, went into effect with Joshua, counting the weeks and years, and the first Passover Feast in the Promised Land. Where Heaven and Earth would keep the Sabbaths, even if the people did not. On God's word, the keeping and counting of seven years, counted seven times is 49 years, is a week of Sabbath years, and the fiftieth year, a Holy Sabbath, a Jubilee. For generation after generation, to be kept and counted. Then it would stand to reason, seventy Jubilee's would be a total of 3500 years.The same message given to Daniel, is to restore the Holy city, the Temple, and God's people. Within a period of Seventy Weeks, which my Daniel timeline shows, but it's the Joshua timeline of the counting of Jubilee years/sevens, 3500 years (70 x 50) where God's Plan, at His Appointed Times, became and will become reality, for His Annointed Son, His People, His Holy City, The Temple, and at the end of the church age, The New Jerusalem/City/Temple of God, told by Christ Jesus, to John in a vision.On the Jubilee timeline, it was exactly 1400 years from Joshua, on the 28th Jubilee, when Jesus was born in 6 B.C./3754 C.E. as the message to Daniel stated. It was God's Appointed time, whether the people counted and kept the Sabbath years or not. When we fully understand God's Sabbath Laws and Feasts, the message to Daniel, will not confound us. It's applicability will be seen in the Creation Week, in Daniel's period of time, in Christ Jesus' periods in Seventy Weeks, as applied to the Temple, Holy City, and God's people. There are no gaps in the 70 Weeks, remember God said, "this for you is your first month, the first month of your year" (Ex.12) The sacred year calendar came into effect then, and is still in effect, counting the weeks, years, Jubilee's. A Jubilee Chart, is easy to plot out, using 1" graph paper, draw four lines 9" long. The first line add 1/2" for Moses' forty years, the time/date of Joshua the start, each line for 9 hundred years. Each inch being 100 years, each half inch being 50 or Jubilee year. number the points consecutively for seventy Jubilees. Adding B.C. and A.D. years will show the relation of calendar years. You can note world historical events, Biblical events, and current events of the last 100 years. Or expand the last line to show the last three Jubilee periods, in a one inch equals ten years, to show each year.Consider; 3500 years is 70 times 50, and 70 x 7 = 490,490 x 7 = 3,430, which 70 years short of 3500. Add the 70 years after 1947 will reveal a week of seven years, in relation to the Jubilee years. What years are they? Are we ready in our Christian Walk, for the Appointed Times of God ? Peace,Old Sage

 

[logabe]

The primary concept to grasp is that of the iron yoke and the wooden yoke. The iron yoke is mentioned in Deut. 28:48 and described in the context of that passage. If Israel were to receive a iron yoke, it would mean that a foreign nation would come and war against them, destroy their nation, and displace them from their land. The law itself, however, does not describe the alternative judgment--the wooden yoke. This is left to the prophet Jeremiah, who speaks of it in Jer. 27 and 28. The context shows us that the wooden yoke was where God would put the nation under the authority of a foreign nation, but there would be no destructive war. Instead, the people would recognize the judgment as coming from God's hand and would thus submit to it, recognizing that God was just in His judgment. The wooden yoke, then, would place the nation into "tribute." They would simply pay the "tax" while living in their own land. The Jews werepaying tribute to Rome in Jesus' day because of their rebellion.The wooden yoke was a merciful judgment, but it required faith in God. It required acceptance of that judgment. It was Jeremiah's primary mission to get Jerusalem in his day to accept the fact that God had given Judah into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer. 27:6-12). Of course, they threw him into prison for treason! The Babylonians finally set him free. Taking this principle to the 20th century, we have already shown that the United States was conquered by Babylon in 1914 on a 2,520-year cycle from the original captivity. The question is this: Did the U.S. come under a wooden yoke, or an iron yoke? Obviously, since we were not deported or deprived from the right to own land, we can see that we are under a wooden yoke. In 1916 the sixteenth Amendment was passed, which was a tax on corporate “income.” Ultimately, this was interpreted by the IRS to mean that personal wages could also be taxed. So it is plain to see that we are now paying "tribute" in a wooden yoke. This whole captivity to Babylon began with a covert action on Dec. 23, 1913, as I said earlier, when just five Senators passed the Federal Reserve Act, while the rest were home for the Christmas holiday. It was signed by President Woodrow Wilson, who did not even read this "routine banking bill," and later admitted that it was the greatest mistake of his career. But was it? Not from God's perspective, for He was bringing judgment upon us for our sin. The conspirators, led by Paul Warburg, had drawn up this bill on Jekyll Island a few years earlier, as later reported in the media. They thought they were pretty smart, not knowing that God was behind it all along. God blinded most Americans from seeing what was going on in this, because if we had known the facts, the American people would have taken up arms and driven the money changers from the temple. But God blinded us in order to ensure that we would accept His wooden yoke. Otherwise, we would have fallen into the same trap of patriotic rebellion that Jeremiah faced in his day. God would then have imposed an iron yoke upon us. God did, however, give us a sign so that the wise would understand. The bill was signed by WOODROW Wilson. He gave us the WOODEN yoke. As I said in the last post, other parts of the world were not so so fortunate New Rome (Moscow) and its Eastern European satellite nations received the iron yoke, which historians came to call the IRON CURTAIN. Many of the people were displaced, driven of their land on to collective farms. Millions were killed over the first two decades. Thus, the inheritor of Roman civilization (Russia) received an iron yoke itself. This lasted precisely 70 years, just like the old Babylonian empire. On the 70th anniversary of the so-called "Russian Revolution," (1917-1987), President Gorbachev made his famous anniversary speech before the Supreme Soviet that broke the back of Communism itself. The old Soviet Union began to implode, and it soon broke up into pieces. The iron yoke captivity began to end in 1987, precisely 2,520 years after Babylon fell to Medo-Persia in 537 B.C. The Persian King Cyrus allowed the Babylonian captives to return to their own land, but this event, though good, did not actually set the Judahites free. It simply ended their iron yoke and put them under the wooden yoke. So it is with Russia today, though they are still reeling from the effects of the iron yoke. When will this wooden yoke finally end? I do not know for sure. But it is helpful to know how we got to where we are today and to understand our current position under the wooden yoke. I do know this, however: The wooden yoke will not end until God sets us free. And God will not do that until the people repent. And it is doubtful if the people will repent until they see the manifestation of the sons of God. Why? Because Daniel 7 makes it clear that the saints of the Most High will inherit the Kingdom after the fourth beast and its extension (the "little horn") has run its full course. I believe that this is a reference to the manifestation of the sons of God, for this is the event that will qualify people to rule creation justly, peaceably, and with perfect love. Jesus said,My YOKE is Easy and My burden is LIGHT.Logabe

 

[logabe]

As I said earlier, the Judeans were paying tribute to the Romansat the time of Jesus' appearance in flesh. But lets go back to theroot of the problem so we can understand the Iron and WoodenYokes a little better.In the book of Judges we read how God judged Israel for disobedience, as God “sold” them into the hands of various nations until they repented. (See Judges 3:8; 4:2; 10:7.) The people eventually repented, and God then sent “Judges” to deliver them and set them free. But as time passed, the people refused to repent and to hear the prophet's message. So God first sent the house of Israel into an Assyrian captivity in 745-721 B.C., from which they were scattered among the nations (as Deut. 28:64 had threatened). This was the iron yoke upon the northern house of Israel. A century later, because the southern house of Judah also refused to repent and hear the word of Jeremiah, God sent that nation to Babylon for 70 years under an iron yoke. Even so, God was merciful to Judah and offered them an alternative to the iron yoke. He sentJeremiah to offer them a wooden yoke (Jer. 27:2), whereby they might serve their sentence in their own land, paying tribute but without war or deportation. In essence, God was offering them the same kind of judgment that their forefathers had experienced in the days of the Judges. But the national prophet, Hananiah, broke that wooden yoke (Jer. 28:10), thus signifying the people's refusal to submit to this more merciful divine judgment. Their foolish rejection of the wooden yoke automatically placed them under the iron yoke (Jer. 28:13). For this reason, God sent Judah to Babylon under an iron yoke. They returned 70 years later to serve out the rest of the sentence under a wooden yoke, for after the fall of Babylon, they remained under the rule of Medo-Persia, followed by Greece and then Rome. Daniel's prophecies had made it clear that this Babylonian captivity was to consist of more than just 70 years under Babylon. Babylon was merely the “head” of gold, which was to be followed by Medo-Persia, the “arms” of silver, then Greece, the “belly” of bronze, and finally Rome, the “legs” of iron. The people of Judah, however, seemed totally ignorant of Daniel's prophecy. Certainly, they did not believe it. Instead, they grumbled and complained at the wooden yoke. False religious teachers arose who preached patriotic religion, convincing the people that their captivity was in violation of God's will, instead of divine judgment for the sins of their forefathers. Such men taught that God had commanded the people to break the wooden yoke of nations, even as Hananiah had broken Jeremiah's yoke. Their teaching succeeded in implanting the desire for independence without giving them the understanding of the proper way in which to obtain it. While it was true that God intended for them to be free, it was equally true that their freedom and land inheritance in Canaan was conditional upon their obedience. The law clearly stated that He would disinherit them if they violated His covenant with them. It is easy to say that one believes in God. It is easy to say that God is sovereign and is to be obeyed. It is even easy to say that God judges sin. But when the judgment drags on for centuries, people become impatient, and it becomes easier for people to be fooled into thinking that the judgment has gone on long enough. At that point, false messiahs find more and more people who are willing to believe that God expects them to fight for their independence and freedom. Logabe

 

[logabe]

As their false messiahs failed to deliver them from the yoke, the people were disillusioned with those messiahs and bitter against God Himself. They considered God to be unjust for allowing the captivity to go on for so long. Religiosity prevented them from directing their anger and bitterness against God, and so they took it out on their rulers. The rulers reacted by oppressing them further to keep “law and order.” After the Babylonian captivity's “iron yoke,” Judea was placed under the wooden yoke of Persia from 537-335 B.C. Then the dominion was given to the Grecian Empire. Alexander the Great ruled only a short time, and then his kingdom was divided among his four generals (Dan. 8:8), two of whom fought over Palestine for centuries. In the Providence of God, the Greeks were given dominion over Judea from 335-63 B.C., at which time the dominion was given to the iron kingdom of Rome. However, the dominion of the Greeks was cut short by a century because they abused their position so badly in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. Antiochus attempted to turn the temple in Jerusalem into a pagan temple in 168 B.C. For this reason, God allowed the Jewish Maccabees to lead the people to victory and overthrow the wooden yoke for precisely one century (163-63 B.C.). This was the final century that God had allotted to the Grecian empire. God cut their time short by a century and gave the Kingdom of Judea its independence for a hundred years. But the fourth kingdom of Daniel was yet to come, and the Scriptures could not be broken. It seems as though the people had forgotten Daniel's prophecy, hoping that their independence would last forever. But God put Judah back under the wooden yoke when the time came for the fourth kingdom of Daniel 's prophecy to receive its allotted tune. The Roman general Pompey took control of Jerusalem in 63 B.C. That previous century of independence under the Hasmonean Dynasty only served to give the people a taste of freedom. Not believing either Jeremiah or Daniel, the people revolted from Roman rule as often as they could, led by many false prophets calling themselves messiahs. It was commonly believed that the true Messiah would be successful at overthrowing the rule of Rome and establishing Judah in its place as head of the nations. In fact, this was their ultimate test of messiahship. Unfortunately, their carnal viewpoint was such that they envisioned themselves ruling as oppressors of the nations in much the same manner as Rome was oppressing the nations. Instead of contemplating how to set the nations free in the glorious liberty of the sons of God, they dreamed of enslaving the nations by the power of the Messiah. Logabe

 

[logabe]

When men are oppressed in life, they either vow never to oppress others as they were oppressed, or else they cannot help but oppress others in imitation of their own oppressors. It is noteworthy that abused children often grow up to abuse their own children. It is the same with whole nations and cultures of abuse. The divine law says in Ex. 22:21, 21 You shall not wrong a foreigner or oppress him, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. Again, we read in Exodus 23:9, 9 And you shall not oppress a foreigner, since you yourselves know the feelings of a foreigner, for you also were foreigners in the land of Egypt. In other words, God says, you know what it is like to be oppressed as a foreigner, so you are not to oppress them either. This is based upon the Golden Rule as stated negatively: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you. The majority of the Judeans developed the opinion that they were the ones entitled to oppress the nations even as they themselves had been oppressed. It became the calling of the Messiah, as they saw it, to do unto others what the others had done to them. Each Jew would be given 2,500 slaves, and non-Jews were considered to be sub-human, as the Talmudic writings show. Whenever a false messiah presented himself, there were always men ready to follow and fight for him. But when the true Messiah came in the person of the Prince of Peace, they rejected Him, for He was much too friendly with the Romans and with non-Jewish people. He showed no inclination to learn the arts of war. He did not come as a great military commander to overthrow Rome. He did not treat Samaritans or Romans with disrespect. He did not fit their idea of a Messiah. He did not even get along with the Temple's respected leaders. But the fact is, Jesus submitted Himself to the wooden yoke of Rome, as the law and the prophets had commanded. This was so unusual that even His own disciples did not really understand Him until after the day of Pentecost. Philip's revival in Samaria, followed by Peter's vision, taught the early Church that the Holy Spirit, “the Promise of the Father,” (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4), was for EVERYONE—not just an exclusive blessing for the few. This absolutely amazed them (Acts 10:45). But meanwhile, “He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him” (John 1:11). His rejection and death were prophesied by all of the laws of sacrifice as well as in Isaiah 53 and was thus written into the Divine Plan. Nonetheless, God held the nation accountable for its actions. Yet He gave them 40 years of grace in which to repent, as established by the intercession of the prophet Ezekiel (4:6). During much of that period, James interceded for them as an extension of Ezekiel's ministry. This intercession resulted in many believers, but the nation as a whole continued to reject the true Messiah. They stoned and clubbed to death their intercessor, James, while he was praying for them in 62 A.D. As a result, God became their enemy and fought against them, as Isaiah put it. He sent Roman procurators to Judea who were the worst in their history and who would provoke them to revolt. Thus, the purposes of God were fulfilled to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. The revolt was the equivalent to breaking the wooden yoke offered to them in the days of Jeremiah and Hananiah. They had rebellious hearts against God Himself. And so, because they refused to submit to the wooden yoke, God put upon them an iron yoke, destroying their city and scattering them into all nations, as the law had threatened. The reasons for this judgment were not posted in secret, but in the very law in which they trusted. Their rebellious hearts prevented them from believing what was written. And so, what they thought was a revolt against Rome in order to better serve God was actually a revolt against God and His judgments.Logabe

 

[Christina]

And what of all the scripture you ignore to come up with this mixture of fact and fiction what do you say ??? This is history mixed with mens ideas you are using the types that happened and mens interptations to make the Bible only a history book. Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. hat did happen were These things happened for ensamples they are not the fulfilment You are saying nothing that has not been repeated and taught for hundreds of years yet God himself tells you the Book was sealed Futhermore if this was right sense 6 out of 10 churches teach it. There would be no great delusion upon the world, no famine for the true word of God (Amos8:11-12) Its just the same old wrong interpetation by men long history's of the past ensamples God gave gave us THEY ARE NOT THE FINAL FULFILLMENT there is nothing new under the Sun what was before will be again and to say these past ensamples are the fulfillment is to not prepare men for what is to come. Thus the true Word of God is not taught.

 

[Jordan]

(Christina;64788)
And what of all the scripture you ignore to come up with this mixture of fact and fiction what do you say ??? This is history mixed with mens ideas you are using the types that happened and mens interptations to make the Bible only a history book. Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. hat did happen were These things happened for ensamples they are not the fulfilment You are saying nothing that has not been repeated and taught for hundreds of years yet God himself tells you the Book was sealed Futhermore if this was right sense 6 out of 10 churches teach it. There would be no great delusion upon the world, no famine for the true word of God (Amos8:11-12) Its just the same old wrong interpetation by men long history's of the past ensamples God gave gave us THEY ARE NOT THE FINAL FULFILLMENT there is nothing new under the Sun what was before will be again and to say these past ensamples are the fulfillment is to not prepare men for what is to come. Thus the true Word of God is not taught.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 - The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.II Peter 1:20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things....Psalm 116:11 - I said in my haste, All men are liars.Mark 7:7-9 - Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.II Corinthians 11:4 - For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him...I John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 

[logabe]

The Bible predicts the overthrow of "Babylon," first in terms of the literal city itself, then as a type of a much greater system of oppression. Jeremiah 50 and 51 speak primarily of the overthrow of the old city of Babylon, but in the book of Revelation we find John quoting these same passages and applying them to the greater "Mystery Babylon." It is apparent from this that the old city was only a type and shadow of a much greater fulfillment yet to come. We find by studying the three 40's in the Age of Pentecost that each time cycle ends with the overthrow of "Babylon." At the end of 40 years we find Jerusalem-Babylon destroyed; at the end of 40 rest years we find Rome conquered by Constantine; and finally, at the end of the 40 Jubilees we can expect to see the final overthrow of that city on the highest level.First, let us see how Jerusalem compares to Babylon in the first cycle of 40. Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:30-36,30 And [you] say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Whereof ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city; 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the Temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.Jesus imputed bloodshed to that nation all the way back to the blood of Abel in the fourth chapter of Genesis. That simply meant that the generation of his day would have to pay the price for all that bloodshed. The blood of the prophets would be redeemed by the judgment upon that generation. Even so, God gave them the maximum time of Repentance, a 40-year generation. Finally, the city was overthrown.We find an interesting parallel to the city of Babylon in Revelation 18:20-24, which links Jerusalem to Babylon in that book,20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.It is amazing how the things Jesus said about Jerusalem in Matthew 23 are repeated in John's revelation about Babylon. Even as Jesus attributed to Jerusalem all the bloodshed of the prophets and saints back to Abel, so also does John do this with Babylon. Furthermore, even as Babylon is said to be cast into the sea, so also Jesus intimated that the cursed fig tree nation of Judah was a "mountain" that could be cast into the sea (Matt. 21:21). Jerusalem itself was linked spiritually to Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Thus, it is no surprise to see that the fall of Jerusalem and Judah from 70-73 A.D. is a type and shadow of the fall of Babylon.Unfortunately, there are some who take this principle to excess, thinking that the overthrow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was the entire fulfillment of the prophecy. They do not see the bigger picture, and do not understand that there can be many types and shadows before the final fulfillment of a prophecy occurs. Such people take the type and make it the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy. They take the shadow and make it the full manifestation. While it is certainly true that Jerusalem was a type and shadow of the Babylon in the book of Revelation, it is equally true that the city was only the first-level type and shadow of Babylon.Logabe

 

[logabe]

The Zealots were the Jewish extremists of the day. They were called Sicarii, which means "people of the daggers." They were assassins and terrorists. Everyone was their enemy that did not help them try to overthrow the Roman authorities. One of Jesus' disciples, Simon Zelotes, had been one of them (Luke 6:15) before Jesus showed him a better way. Zelotes means "the Zealot." In 73 A.D. a man named Eleazar was the commander of the Sicarii. Before going to Masada, he and his men killed thousands of people in Jerusalem, terrorizing the people so they would join the revolt against the Romans. Anyone who was peaceable among them was assassinated. When the Sicarii were finally expelled from Jerusalem, they took over a fortress mountain called Masada. Three years after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Romans finally captured Masada. The Romans had to build a ramp up to the fortress in order to take it. They finished the ramp on the fourteenth day of the first month in 73 A.D. This was the day the people would normally have killed their lambs for Passover to be eaten that evening. The Romans then decided to storm Masada the following morning. But that night the Sicarii in Masada assisted each other in committing suicide instead of keeping the Passover. Only one elderly woman and five children hid themselves and survived the ordeal. The fact that they had to hide in order to survive the night shows that this was more than a voluntary suicide. It was also murder in the guise of "assisted suicide." There is no way to tell how many of those people were actually murdered. Josephus tells us in Wars of the Jews, VII, ix, 1, "This calamitous slaughter was made on the fifteenth day of the month [Xanthicus] Nisan." One cannot help but be reminded of the slaughter of the firstborn in Egypt which occurred at the original Passover night. The only reason the Israelites were spared was because they had placed the blood of the lamb on their door posts and lintels. Ex. 12:12, 13 says, 12 For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments-I am the Lord. 13 And the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. The Sicarii did not celebrate Passover in the spring of 73 A.D. Instead, they helped each other commit suicide on the night commemorating the slaughter of the first-born of Egypt. This event identifies the Sicarii, not with righteous Israelites, but with the Egyptians who died on that first Passover. It is also significant that the Sicarii terrorists who died at Masada are memorialized by the Israelis today as heroes. They ought rather to be memorialized as examples of bad figs whose attitudes and actions are to be abhorred by all future generations. Logabe

 

[logabe]

Josephus makes it clear that these religious zealots (the Sicarii) were among the ones most responsible for the disasters that came upon Jerusalem and the whole nation. Their doctrine of rebellion was " to look upon God as their only Lord and Master " ( Wars, VII, x, 1). They did not believe that God wanted them to be ruled by any foreigner. By this they meant that they were duty-bound by God Himself to make war on any nation that had conquered them. They did not comprehend the law of tribulation in Deut. 28. They did not understand the book of Judges, where God makes it very clear that He would not allow them to be free, as long they were in rebellion against His law and remained in an unrepentant condition. Neither did they learn anything from the writings of Jeremiah and the destruction of Jerusalem at the hand of Babylon. Thus, the bad figs of Judah, in attempting to throw off the wooden yoke, succeeded only in securing for themselves the iron yoke. Many were slaughtered, the land was devastated, the nation itself destroyed, and the people sent into foreign lands as captives and slaves. Everything that Moses prophesied in the law of tribulation came upon them. This iron yoke continued until the twentieth century, when modern Zionism was born. Zionism was the attempt to throw off the iron yoke and to return to the old land without first repenting of their hostility against Jesus Christ, as the law demands. The movement itself, therefore, is lawless. But many Jews became tired of waiting, yet remained blinded to the causes of their dispersion. The question is, why did Zionism succeed in establishing the Israeli state, even though the law of tribulation seemed to make this impossible? There is no biblical precedent for throwing off a yoke of either wood or iron until the people had repented. The answer is found in the fact that Judaism is fulfilling two sets of prophecies, one for Judah, and one for Edom. Under the banner of Judah, the people were banned by divine legislation from throwing off the yoke of iron. But under the banner of Edom, the Jews had a genuine case to present before the divine court. God had promised Esau-Edom that he would be given the land of Canaan. Jacob-Israel was obligated by law to give the land back to his brother, because he had taken it by fraudulent means. And so, in 1948 the "Union Jack" flag of Great Britain was removed from Palestine, and a new nation was born, calling itself Israel. The name "Jack" is short for Jacob. In 1948 Jacob was forced to return the land to the Zionist Jews, not because they were descended from the northern House of Israel, nor yet because of their descent from the southern House of Judah, but because of their descent from Edom. But before we can make sense of these more recent events in the twentieth century, we must explain the significance of the rejection of Jesus Christ at His first appearance.Logabe

 

[logabe]

The good fig tree attempted to remain in the old land for a time, but conflict soon forced most of them to flee for their lives into other parts of the Roman Empire. The book of Acts tells the story of this persecution. Even so, the fig tree grew rapidly. There were 3,000 converted on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41). Acts 2:47 says, 47 And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. Again, in Acts 4:4, we read, 4 But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. Again, in Acts 5:14, we read, 14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number. Acts 6:7 says further, 7 And the word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith. Each time other Judahites were converted, the good fig tree grew in strength. The disciples had great success, even though they did not hesitate to place responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus upon their own nation. The apostles did not believe that they ought to tread softly on this controversial issue. They preached boldly, and multitudes repented and followed Jesus Christ. These multitudes of Judahites were "natural branches" of the fig tree. Yet they were cut off from the Kingdom tree, whose trunk was Jesus Christ, until they repented and placed their faith in Jesus as the Messiah. The good fig tree continued to grow, and soon the opposition in the temple became so alarmed that they began to seriously persecute the Church. Yes, this good fig tree was THE CHURCH. It was the inheritor of the dominion mandate given to Judah. It was not a "Gentile Church," as is often taught. It was a Judah Church and will always be a Judah Church. The good figs from the Judah fig tree were soon scattered by persecution into all parts of the Roman Empire and beyond it. Wherever they went, they told the good news to those who would listen. They fed all nations with the good fruit from the tree and made many converts among non-Judahites. As these new converts came to Christ, they were then "grafted" as branches into that fig tree of Judah. Within a century, the Church (fig tree) began to bear many different types of fruit from all nations, with each branch obtaining its life from Jesus Christ. In fact, soon, the figs were outnumbered by the apples, pears, and apricots from the engrafted branches of other nations. But in spite of the great variety of branches and fruit that the tree was bearing, it was still a Judah tree in its trunk. It never was a " Gentile Church," nor did a " Gentile Church " replace Judah. Judah simply divided into good and bad trees, with the good tree of Judah becoming the heir of the dominion mandate-and then this good Judah tree was opened up to receive branches from all other trees of the world. God did NOT plant a new tree and call it the " Gentile Church." Instead, God took His fig tree and engrafted branches of apples, pears, apricots, and so on. Those new branches, though part of the fig tree, continue to bear other fruits. When people of other races are engrafted into this fig tree, they do not change their race or their genetics. They simply produce different types of fruit. God loves variety. And in the end, this tree will bear twelve kinds of fruit, as we read in Rev. 22:2, 2... And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. The Tree of Life is Jesus Christ, and it is made up of many branches-those who are in Christ, or part of His Body. Those who rejected Jesus were, collectively, the corrupt fig tree that could only produce figs that were so bad that they could not be eaten. That corrupt fig tree lost its legal status as the tribe of Judah when they rejected the Messiah and usurped His throne, even as Absalom usurped the throne of his father, David. Even so, for the past 2,000 years a steady stream of Jews have repented and followed Jesus Christ. These have been grafted back into the good fig tree and-with the other believers-are joint heirs with Christ in the dominion mandate. It is NOT the case, however, that Christian Jews have some special status toward God which allows them to rule above any others. Figs are not better than apples; they just have a different flavor. Neither are apples better than figs; they just have a different flavor. Logabe

 

[kkboldt]

Christina,I've never stated that I believe that everything is "finished". You're not listening. Nor have you read carefully through what I've written. Neither you, Christina, nor Jordon are listening. You are assuming things about what I wrote that are simply not true. You assume I am your enemy therefore you read certain posts with a preconceived mind.How can we have a friendly debate if both of you have closed minds? You are "fixed" in your positions. And God himself cannot teach you if you don't open your minds! He opened my mind. I pray he opens yours, too.Do you really think that God has not been actively working with his people for that last 2000 years? Kim

 

[kkboldt]

(JosyWales;64641)
I have to ask: If I am wrong, then why does what I have shown you fit so well?Can it really just be a coincidence?
I don't personally see that what you've presented "fits so well". So, no, I don't see any coincidence. There was a time when I might have agreed. But after many years of reading the scriptures and meditation on these things, I no longer believe these things. "When I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child......" Then I grew up.I used to be of the Dispensationalist mindset. Many of my relatives believe either the Pre-Trib. Rapture or the Post-Trib. Rapture. And it is THESE people who teach about the "Gap Theory". A gap in history from the 69 weeks to the last week for a total of 70. THIS is "the teaching of men".It is THESE people who have manipulated scripture to fit their theories. They follow the False Prophet. But upon examination of scripture, what they teach has no sound Biblical support at all. And some is contradictory to what scripture teaches us.So, I ask then, if you do not believe in the Rapture or the theories of the Dispensationalists, then why do you promote their teachings?Just a question. I'm not picking on you.Yes, and even those who believe that the modern-day Christians are the literal descendants of the Israelites and Judah, believe in some millennial dispensational theories.I used to believe there was a "literal" millennium or thousand years coming, when I realized that Christ's Kingdom shall be set up FOREVER! Not just a thousand years. Along with understanding that much of the Bible is "figure of speech and symbolism", then I realized that the 1000 years is "symbolic" and not meant to be taken full literal face value. Therefore, I am now what you would call an "amillennialist". Which is the belief of the great Reformation preachers. I came to understand that the Bible DOES support their teachings and that God was moving these men and women throughout history for his purposes. This belief is also called "Reformed Historicism".The Great Reformation WAS a significant time in history. You don't think that the Apostle John would have written about it in the book of Revelation? Was Martin Luther wrong when he split from the Roman Church? Or were other Reformation fathers wrong when they split, too? You see, this IS the work of God!God has been working with and moving his people for the last 2000 years! There is NO "gap".Kim

 

[lloydnook]

(kkboldt;64868)
I don't personally see that what you've presented "fits so well". So, no, I don't see any coincidence. There was a time when I might have agreed. But after many years of reading the scriptures and meditation on these things, I no longer believe these things. "When I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child......" Then I grew up.I used to be of the Dispensationalist mindset. Many of my relatives believe either the Pre-Trib. Rapture or the Post-Trib. Rapture. And it is THESE people who teach about the "Gap Theory". A gap in history from the 69 weeks to the last week for a total of 70. THIS is "the teaching of men".It is THESE people who have manipulated scripture to fit their theories. They follow the False Prophet. But upon examination of scripture, what they teach has no sound Biblical support at all. And some is contradictory to what scripture teaches us.So, I ask then, if you do not believe in the Rapture or the theories of the Dispensationalists, then why do you promote their teachings?Just a question. I'm not picking on you.Yes, and even those who believe that the modern-day Christians are the literal descendants of the Israelites and Judah, believe in some millennial dispensational theories.I used to believe there was a "literal" millennium or thousand years coming, when I realized that Christ's Kingdom shall be set up FOREVER! Not just a thousand years. Along with understanding that much of the Bible is "figure of speech and symbolism", then I realized that the 1000 years is "symbolic" and not meant to be taken full literal face value. Therefore, I am now what you would call an "amillennialist". Which is the belief of the great Reformation preachers. I came to understand that the Bible DOES support their teachings and that God was moving these men and women throughout history for his purposes. This belief is also called "Reformed Historicism".The Great Reformation WAS a significant time in history. You don't think that the Apostle John would have written about it in the book of Revelation? Was Martin Luther wrong when he split from the Roman Church? Or were other Reformation fathers wrong when they split, too? You see, this IS the work of God!God has been working with and moving his people for the last 2000 years! There is NO "gap".Kim
Lloydnook:IMO, you are mistaken. Scripture should not be "spiritualised" (one description for not taking it as literal).The "Reformers" were in "anti- Roman Church" mode; and as such examined, quite rightly, many Doctrines. However, only some of their conclusions were accurate IMO, and, much damage was done, and is still being done by some of their teachings!Examples:The Elect. This is a very controversial subject in Christendom. The classical definition is accepted by some as that of John Calvin, the well known theologian, and one of the important Protestant reformers of the 16th century. In fact there is considerable doubt as to whether Calvin was in fact the father of the classical definition, as it seems to have emerged after his death in AD 1564 under the influence of Theodore Beza. In fact Calvin himself refused to dogmatically conclude what many of his fellows and students readily accepted. But, what Calvin formally refused to confirm was embodied eventually in the Articles of the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-19). This definition holds that “Christ died only for the elect (chosen).” What this means in effect is that only some people are “elected” to be saved, which to the writer does not seem to conform to the whole of Scripture, and especially to the New Testament! It is however ironic that Calvin is now chained to that definition, in what became known as the “Calvin Secondary Form,” but was in fact under the force of Beza! Calvin is however on record as stating before his death that “election is related to the Person and Work of Christ”. We know from the Holy Spirit inspired writings in Scripture, that Christ’s death was for the whole world, (John 3:16,) but only for those in the world that will accept the great sacrifice of Christ’s, not for those that refuse it! What that means in effect, is that the most base sinner, and even apparently necromancers, can be saved and have eternal life, but only while the offer is current, and it will be withdrawn at some stage in the future, some think soon! Returning to “election,” Calvin’s latter statement chimes true to Scripture, as it states in Luke 23:35, that Jesus was the “chosen”, or "Anointed" of God. A few of the many other ref. are; Mat.16:16, Luke 4:41, Luke 24:25, as Messiah or Christ carry the same meaning! The Jews knew (know) the Old Testament well, (albeit the Pharisaic, "Orthodox" Jews of today, through the "filter" of their later "Writings", called by some "Wisdom"). However, in Biblical Judaism, the prophecies of Messiah are numerous. The Messiah, for whom the "Orthodox" Jews are still looking, is the “chosen” one, “the elect of God!” This makes clear that it is Christ who is elect, not people! This interpretation was also held by Dr. Robert Anderson, who spoke on the subject at the AD 1895 Keswick Convention. Those that accept Christ’s sacrifice in truth “by propitiation” are in the Beloved, and are therefore “elect!” This great truth allows for untold numbers to be saved, and for the harvest for God Almighty to be very great! This also shows the great wisdom of our Great God, in the “fall” in Eden being the beginning of a retrieval of so many souls, and also the beginning of the downfall of the great enemy Satan, whose end is yet to be played out, as shown in Revelation! It is the great rebellion of Satan (using his freewill), at some time in the distant past, that is the originator of the God given Provision of Salvation through the death of Jesus, The Christ, at Calvary! His shed Blood Covers as many people as will receive it (by using their freewill); as per the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, for the children of Israel; for those that would allow themselves to be Covered by the Paschal Lamb ( those that didn't, died)!Satan's perversion of God's Word to Adam, and Eve's "fall" followed by Adam, was as a result of accepting the changed Words of God! This process is still current, and people must be wary of the many "teachers", "preachers", and any person who would change or interpret Scripture in any way which makes the straightforward message of trust in Christ for Eternal Life; hard to understand, by small changes to words! A common teaching of some Calvinists, is that only God decides who will be "saved"! That any form of "seeking" is useless, because all is determined many "Ages" ago! Some go as far as to say, "that even turning to God, seeking Him, finding Him in Christ, and making the decision to accept Him as Lord and Saviour"; is a form of work; and therefore invalid"! They are usually quite arrogant and aggressive in their statements, and extremely circular in their arguments, that even they become confused, and will contradict themselves on occasions! All of this is a usual sign of Satan's control in their minds as regards the Truth of Christ's Love for the world's peoples! They go as far as to say that if a person "accepts" Jesus as Saviour, their Salvation is invalid, because they "accepted", which they say is work! They also confuse the "Sovereignty" of God, stating that because the individual "accepted", they "usurped" God's Sovereignty; instead of realising that God is Sovereign over all! These are based on the Calvinist Concept of "Limited Election", which is also a mistaken concept, based on "only those favoured" being called! In these Definitions, the extreme Calvinist is using the method of the "Usurper"of the Garden of Eden, whose miss-use of the Words of God, led to the Fall.A favourite method of persuasion is to quote passages in the New Testament which seem to confirm their case. These are usually taken out of context, or are given a "new context" by the speaker, with their own interpretation of what God meant! Here we must remember Eve in the Garden of Eden!The following Links give some comments and clarity on this type of teaching:http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20...%20of%20God.htm http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Is%20O...Predestined.htm http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20...20teachings.htm Many Calvinists also believe that they "are the future Israel" of prophecy, which is in direct conflict with God's Word re. Israel! http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20...0Testaments.htm A further element to the controversy of the “elect,” is that there is more than one group of elected peoples. This is where the exhortation by the great Apostle Paul is to be heeded and used (2Tim. 2:15). In this statement, Paul shows that the Bible must be properly “divided”, and that it must be “worked”at! A simple example of that is to understand that which applies to Christians (the true Body of Christ), does not apply to the unfortunates of Rev. 22, who are excluded from the Tree of Life! This extreme example is used only to illustrate the care that is needed in reading and understanding the context. The two main groups called the “elect” in Scripture are the Jews, and Christians (the true Body of Christ). It is essential for understanding to clearly differentiate all cases, to be able to understand what is being said, and to whom! In the case of the Jewish election, these are documented in many O.T. Scriptures, some of which are as follows. Gen.12:2-3, 7, Gen.13:14-17, Gen.15:5-6, 18-21, Gen.17:4-10, 21, Gen. 21:12-13. In Gal. 3:16, the NT also refers to “the promised seed,” that of Eden! The Jewish promised “election,” was at the beginning unconditional, and still is, that will be played out in future events! Conditions were not applied until Mount Sinai, when God wanted His people to perform a task of witness for Him to the surrounding nations, as to Him being the only True God! Their failure and refusal eventually led to God’s Glory leaving the Temple in Jerusalem, and their exile in Babylon! Under Ezra and Nehemiah, God re-established His people, but His “Shekina” did not return to the new temple. As per the prophecies of Daniel, and other O.T. prophets, Jesus was born, and as the “Christ” (Greek for Hebrew Messiah) and the “chosen” (elect) of God, was offered to the Jews for redemption. As Acts 28:26-27, sadly records, they finally refused Jesus as Christ, and shortly after they were rejected by God (temporarily), and made “lo-ammi” (not my people), and the offer of salvation has been held out to the nations (Gentiles) ever since, Acts 28:28! This fact of temporary rejection of the Jews, and the offer being made available to the Gentiles, created the potential for the “elect” of the Body of Christ, and as stated is the second grouping of “elect” peoples. For this reason great care must be taken to ascertain which grouping of “elect” peoples are referred to in Scripture passages. An example of this is a much misunderstood passage in Matt. 24:24. The reference there to the “elect” is to the writer clearly referring to “the elect of Israel,” as the Body of Christ has been removed from the earth, and Israel are re-adopted, (Ammi, my people again)! Subjectindex

 

[kkboldt]

(eliyahu;51057)
"If those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened." Jesus said something close to that. I believe he meant that God would intervene and stop the course of things before its too late for everyone. If God doesn't, no one would live through that season. It is not about specifics in time. Those aren't given. That was just a figure of speech.
What happened in the years that followed Jesus's resurrection and the dispersement of the disciples?The PERSECUTION OF THE SAINTS! It is estimated that between 60 and 100 MILLION Christians were martyred. It is THESE days that had to be shorted otherwise "no flesh would have been saved". The Romans and the Roman Church attempted to wipe them all out!Why do we ignore this great event in history? Even I did once. I was blinded by belief that this was a "future" event.Why would we ignore what our Christian ancestors had to endure?—what persecutions and trials they faced. To THEM, it may have been perceived as "the end of the world". Let's put ourselves in their place. What would we be thinking?That's not to say that we will not have tribulation in the world in these last days. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation."We face our own trials and tribulations today. But we must not ignore history and it's role in the spread and formation of Christianity. And we must not ignore what Jesus said.Kim

 

[lloydnook]

(kkboldt;64870)
What happened in the years that followed Jesus's resurrection and the dispersement of the disciples?The PERSECUTION OF THE SAINTS! It is estimated that between 60 and 100 MILLION Christians were martyred. It is THESE days that had to be shorted otherwise "no flesh would have been saved". The Romans and the Roman Church attempted to wipe them all out!Why do we ignore this great event in history? Even I did once. I was blinded by belief that this was a "future" event.Why would we ignore what our Christian ancestors had to endure?—what persecutions and trials they faced. To THEM, it may have been perceived as "the end of the world". Let's put ourselves in their place. What would we be thinking?That's not to say that we will not have tribulation in the world in these last days. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation."We face our own trials and tribulations today. But we must not ignore history and it's role in the spread and formation of Christianity. And we must not ignore what Jesus said.Kim
Lloydnook:Your figure of 60/100m, is not likely, as the population of the known world at that time was very small!Also; as the theatre of the events of Acts etc. was the Middle East (ie "Palestine"), the population was too small for your comments to be accurate!The "Great Tribulation" is yet to be; it will encompass the whole world as the "wrath of God" on "the Nations"; and Satan's anger with Israel!As regards the "Tribulation of the saints", as per Revelation; these are always described as "overcomers", which is a catogory never seen before in Scripture!

 

[kkboldt]

Hi Logabe,I agree with most of what you've posted. But can you clear up something for me? You mention in the last post Judah was converted to Christianity. But isn't it also true that "lost Israel" or the Northern 10-Tribes who were dispersed among the gentile nations, also converted to Christianity?Did not the apostle James state in his letter, the first chapter, "To the TWELVE TRIBES that are scattered abroad, greetings"?Does not this suggest that ALL TWELVE Tribes of Israel had been accounted for and converted to Christianity? The Gentiles being the "nations" of lost Israel? That's not to say that non-Israelites or non-Jews did not become Christians, too, in the mix. But at first, it was Israel AND Judah that converted to Christianity. I speak of them in separate as God did too, in the scriptures. Jesus said, "I am sent not but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Because at that time, the House of Judah and a remnant of Benjamin (of whom the disciples were descendants of) were already accounted for. So who were those "lost sheep"? Were they not the northern 10-tribes that were scattered among the gentiles? And the Jews called them "gentiles" because they had become "heathenized" among the gentiles, but were actual descendants of the northern 10-Tribes. They "were lost, but now were found".It was ALL 12 Tribes that converted to Christianity, not just the House of Judah.This is my understanding. Is this yours, too, or not? Forgive me, if I've misunderstood.Kim

 

[JosyWales]

Unbelievable

 

[Jordan]

(kkboldt;64870)
(eliyahu;51057)
"If those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened." Jesus said something close to that. I believe he meant that God would intervene and stop the course of things before its too late for everyone. If God doesn't, no one would live through that season. It is not about specifics in time. Those aren't given. That was just a figure of speech.
What happened in the years that followed Jesus's resurrection and the dispersement of the disciples?The PERSECUTION OF THE SAINTS! It is estimated that between 60 and 100 MILLION Christians were martyred. It is THESE days that had to be shorted otherwise "no flesh would have been saved". The Romans and the Roman Church attempted to wipe them all out!Why do we ignore this great event in history? Even I did once. I was blinded by belief that this was a "future" event.Why would we ignore what our Christian ancestors had to endure?—what persecutions and trials they faced. To THEM, it may have been perceived as "the end of the world". Let's put ourselves in their place. What would we be thinking?That's not to say that we will not have tribulation in the world in these last days. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation."We face our own trials and tribulations today. But we must not ignore history and it's role in the spread and formation of Christianity. And we must not ignore what Jesus said.KimKim this post of yours is from men and always for men. It's just sickening to my soul. Catholicism is one of the biggest offender against God, but nowhere near the Great Mystery of Babylon...When Satan comes back only killing 2 witnesses of God, he won't kill anymore. He'll have the souls of many by deception. Besides the events is going to be in Jerusalem and not Rome. Stop this trash talking by perverting His Words with men's doctrine.(JosyWales;64878)
Unbelievable

Yea, I know, they just keep talking. The more they talk, the less chances they will hear God. Well that's my view anyway.