A Challenge
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I'll attempt to answer.
We (humanity embodied and represented by the religious elite and the secular institution) demanded and extracted a price and that price was death....the death of Jesus........and wonder of wonders, he allowed us to extract....and he willingly paid......because he loved......because he would rather die than kill ie, use force to get his way.
As sure as the sun rises in the east, he didn't want to die, his prayer in Gethsemane reveals this.....and as we have seen from the story leading up to the Crucifixion, he had the 'power' to subdue his executions by them falling to the ground when he identified himself to his arresters......yet God's 'power' is not with force of arms but with kindness and long-suffering; a kindness followed through to death....but death could not hold him............the story continues!
Davy
Well-Known Member
What you are actually asking is whether or not man's 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine is Biblical or not.
OSAS is NOT Biblical.
Apostle Paul gave much admonishing about our 'walk' in Christ Jesus to not fall away. In Galatians 5, Paul showed that it is possible for the believer to either 'walk' by The Spirit and thus not be under the law, or walk by our flesh and thus be subject to law still, even as a believer on Jesus Christ.
In 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6, Apostle Paul warned the 'brethren' that those who do those works of the flesh shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
In Hebrew 6, Apostle Paul remarked how a believer who has experienced the gifts of The Holy Spirit and powers of the world to come, but then falls away from Christ, it is impossible to renew their Faith, for it would be like crucifying Christ all over again.
In Romans 3:25, Apostle Paul revealed our 1st belief on Jesus Christ is for the remission of sins "that are past". That means forgiveness of sins up to that point of our 1st belief on Jesus Christ.
1 John 1 reveals what the believer is to do after having believed, to repent to Jesus asking forgiveness, and that Jesus is Just to forgive us and cleanse us from the sin.
The devil is behind the OSAS doctrine, because it vainly suggests that no matter what sin a believer on Jesus Christ does, they are 'automatically' forgiven of it. That is NOT TRUE per God's Word, as I have documented by the previous Scripture proofs. We have to 'stay'... in the walk with Jesus, and not fall away. Thus the devil wants the believer to think they can do any sin and they are still automatically saved. That kind of thinking is blasphemy against Christ Jesus, because it promotes Christ's Salvation as being allied with sin.
IN SHORT....
1) The Father named all those He wanted saved in eternity past, before the foundation of the world.
2) The Father sent His Son (who is God) to be the ultimate sacrifice for sins, because it was man who sinned, and will take a God-man to redeem the sins of the Father's people.
3) And the Father dispatched the Holy Spirit in place of Christ to seal the fate of all those that the Father named to salvation, and to give them knowledge of the true Gospel, whereby they can evangelize the world.
IOW, all three persons of the Godhead had a hand in man's salvation.
I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
To God Be The Glory
1) The Father named all those He wanted saved in eternity past, before the foundation of the world.
2) The Father sent His Son (who is God) to be the ultimate sacrifice for sins, because it was man who sinned, and will take a God-man to redeem the sins of the Father's people.
3) And the Father dispatched the Holy Spirit in place of Christ to seal the fate of all those that the Father named to salvation, and to give them knowledge of the true Gospel, whereby they can evangelize the world.
IOW, all three persons of the Godhead had a hand in man's salvation.
The full price was the sacrificial death of the God-man and the redemption price is that our sins have all been paid for!!
I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
To God Be The Glory
Those who are NOT proponents of OSAS says it is NOT BIBLICAL
"The wages of sin (singular) is death."
How many sins did Jesus redeem when He died on the cross, seeing that the wages of sin is death? All of our sins!!
If all, what sin can we commit that will put us in hell? N-O-N-E!! N-A-D-A.
As I've said in another thread, most people don't know the true nature of salvation.
To God Be The Glory
I would agree with this, but with the proviso that we repent. Yes, the full price has been paid, but there are conditions to be met if the efficacy of redemption is fulfilled. Repentance, which is in effect a gift of God, being the power of the holy Spirit to forsake sin and walk in Christ's righteousness...also gift.
Obedience. Our first parents lost their place in Eden as a result of disobedience. Anyone believing that Eden can be restored whilst still in a state of rebellion are fooling themselves.
All the above raises another question however. As I said, I agree that the wages of sin is death. And I also agree that the Son of God died in order to pay for our redemption. His death was the propitiation for our sin, this we are now legally set free from the slavery to sin through the merits of Christ's sacrifice.
Question. Why do we teach others something entirely different when it comes to the future reality of neglecting such great salvation? We don't teach that the wages of sin is death...we teach that the wages of sin is eternal life in torment. The Son of God did not pay that price. What happened to the scriptures that declare "the soul that sins, it shall die"?
This does not affect a saved person!! This also must be read in light of John 1:12-13 which reads:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 John 3:9:
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
To God Be The Glory
Jesus life, was perfectly lived by the law to the T. Fulfilling this Law, he fulfilled the promises which would come upon the nation of Israel for their crime of having killed the Son of God. Essentially, Jesus giving up his life, to the Father is when the body of the Son of Man died. This was the only offering which was able to reconciled the world back to God through Christ, back the original Garen of Eden state. The ones whom were to suffer the wrath of God, would be the tribes of Israel, which Joshua had given land out to them and they by their choice would be divorced, rightly judged by God, and some saved, while the rest were killed off in the wrath which continued upon the nation of Israel by the use of the Romans, and everything they had was burned up and down.
Several theories have been advanced to explain what happened on Calvary, all of them using the language of “payment” in describing the sacrifice. The “ransom” theory, see Matt. 20:28/Mark 10:45, suggests that by sinning mankind became Satan’s captives, and Christ gave himself as a ransom to redeem mankind from Satan’s dominion, resulting in what Rom. 6:16 characterizes as a change of masters. Origen, Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa all championed this theory.
In contrast, the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory, initially developed by Anselm and refined by Calvin, is far more prevalent today. It holds that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice.
While the payees are different in each (Satan in the “ransom” theory, God in the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory), both theories have their adherents. Luther went with the payment-of-a-debt-owed-to-God theory. In his Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (Graebner trans., Zondervan 1949), Luther comments on Gal. 3:20: “We are the offending party; God is the party offended. The offense is of such a nature that God cannot pardon it.” Why not? No matter what the “offense” is (original sin inherited from Adam; our own personal actions contravening God’s law; fill in the blank yourself), what is it about the nature of the offense that renders it unforgivable without the sacrifice of Christ?
Perhaps a better question is, what is it about God’s justice that disables God from forgiving the offender’s sin (whatever it was) without having His Son nailed to the cross? Christ, we are told, paid the price for our sins―but if it was owed to the Father, what restrained Him from simply canceling the debt?
In contrast, the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory, initially developed by Anselm and refined by Calvin, is far more prevalent today. It holds that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice.
While the payees are different in each (Satan in the “ransom” theory, God in the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory), both theories have their adherents. Luther went with the payment-of-a-debt-owed-to-God theory. In his Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (Graebner trans., Zondervan 1949), Luther comments on Gal. 3:20: “We are the offending party; God is the party offended. The offense is of such a nature that God cannot pardon it.” Why not? No matter what the “offense” is (original sin inherited from Adam; our own personal actions contravening God’s law; fill in the blank yourself), what is it about the nature of the offense that renders it unforgivable without the sacrifice of Christ?
Perhaps a better question is, what is it about God’s justice that disables God from forgiving the offender’s sin (whatever it was) without having His Son nailed to the cross? Christ, we are told, paid the price for our sins―but if it was owed to the Father, what restrained Him from simply canceling the debt?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Nothing was owed to anybody....and IF anybody, it was Man.
God forgives....he doesn't hold a record of wrongs. Man holds a record of wrongs and so does Satan. They are the co- accusers....they are the ones who desire to extract payment because they are tight fisted and unforgiving.
When one substitutes the word 'God' when ever the word 'love' is used in 1 Corinthians 13, a picture of God emerges few have heard of......and if they have, it hasn't registered in their hearts.
God does not need paying, he gives, he doesn't trade.
Man alienates himself from God with his miserable picture of God. God does not alienate himself from fallen Man; he comes searching for him.
God forgives....he doesn't hold a record of wrongs. Man holds a record of wrongs and so does Satan. They are the co- accusers....they are the ones who desire to extract payment because they are tight fisted and unforgiving.
When one substitutes the word 'God' when ever the word 'love' is used in 1 Corinthians 13, a picture of God emerges few have heard of......and if they have, it hasn't registered in their hearts.
God does not need paying, he gives, he doesn't trade.
Man alienates himself from God with his miserable picture of God. God does not alienate himself from fallen Man; he comes searching for him.
OK, then why did Christ have to die on the cross? If "God forgives...he doesn't hold a record of wrong," then He could just forgive all of our sins as an exercise of mercy and love, and leave it at that -- without the suffering of his Son. No?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
He didn't HAVE to. We murdered him. He came to show us God's Kingdom.....his reality was a witness to it.....and we hated him.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
God knew what we would do but he came anyway......and he forgives, even while his murderers are in the act.
I probably have but didn't who they were.
According to your question above, you don't seem to know that a Christian's salvation is a two-part program. or that his salvation was completed when the Father named and elected him in eternity past before the foundation of the world (John 6:44).
You said Christians cannot sin, I presume in the sense that's is impossible for them to do so. Therefore if you've met a Christian, you've met someone who hasn't sinned since being a Christian.
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