A Challenge

[Brakelite]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin, or was it a deposit to which we need to add further installments? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

 

[Windmillcharge]

a full and final settlement of the debt we owe

As Romans 4 makes clear, we do not deserve, we cannot do enough to deserve anything other than judgement from God.
Our salvation is solely through Jesus's death and resurrection. He has done it all, our task is to live for him and to repent of our continual failures,

 

[quietthinker]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin, or was it a deposit to which we need to add further installments? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Who did we owe a debt to if God holds no record of wrongs? 1 Corinthians 13:5

 

[Brakelite]

Who did we owe a debt to if God holds no record of wrongs? 1 Corinthians 13:5

I don't see the connection between your statement re record, and the text. However, from my understanding there is most certainly a record of which the blood sprinkled before the altar and on its horns and before the veil was a type. That record is to be cleansed during the antitypical day of the atonement, formerly through the blood of the Lord's goat, today in the heavenly sanctuary through the blood of Christ.
Not the direction I wanted the thread to take, but a good question.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't see the connection between your statement re record, and the text. However, from my understanding there is most certainly a record of which the blood sprinkled before the altar and on its horns and before the veil was a type. That record is to be cleansed during the antitypical day of the atonement, formerly through the blood of the Lord's goat, today in the heavenly sanctuary through the blood of Christ.
Not the direction I wanted the thread to take, but a good question.

You asked this question...

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin, or was it a deposit to which we need to add further installments? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

subsequently my question...

Who did we owe a debt to if God holds no record of wrongs? 1 Corinthians 13:5

 

[Ziggy]

In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

30 pieces of silver.

 

[Deborah_]

has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Yes. "Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." (I Peter 3:18) "By one sacrifice He has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy" (Hebrews 10:14)

Who did we owe a debt to if God holds no record of wrongs? 1 Corinthians 13:5

In this passage, Paul is talking to the Corinthians about the kind of love that they should be exhibiting. God's love differs slightly from human love because He is God and He is perfect. He does keep a record of wrongs (Revelation 20:12), because He is Judge - but because He is perfect He can do so without holding grudges. We aren't allowed that luxury because we are very imperfect!

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. "Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." (I Peter 3:18) "By one sacrifice He has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy" (Hebrews 10:14)


In this passage, Paul is talking to the Corinthians about the kind of love that they should be exhibiting. God's love differs slightly from human love because He is God and He is perfect. He does keep a record of wrongs (Revelation 20:12), because He is Judge - but because He is perfect He can do so without holding grudges. We aren't allowed that luxury because we are very imperfect!

I think it is safe to replace the word love which Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 13 with God. 1 John tells us that God is love and Paul defines love.
We assume God keeps a record of wrongs because we assume that God will judge us, ie, he will find all the bad bits and do something about it as if he is obliged to payback, but Jesus shows us that God does not operate like that by praying for his executioners. We also see the same spirit in Stephan while he is being stoned; he prays, 'do not hold this sin against them' Acts 7:60

 

[Taken]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin, or was it a deposit to which we need to add further installments? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Jesus’ ACT was His giving willingly, of His Body (without sin) and His Blood (without sin), For the option of every individual man, to accept His offering and accept the consequence of His offering….or Not.

His offering … His Body, His Blood…given once.

His consequence of acceptance…requires a man to once…willingly give the same…the mans body unto death given to God and the mans life (blood) unto death given to God.

Point being…ALL mens body’s, and the life (blood) of their body’s SHALL DIE, WILL DIE, MUST DIE, God requires that. (Gen 9:5)

A Living man, while alive, can freely via his own natural spirit, pledge, promise, vow, to give his own body, his own body’s life (Blood), once and forever, TO God, (or not.)
His (who gives) consequence is:
His…forgiveness for having Had not believed.
His…soul restored to good.
His…spirit born again of Gods seed.
His…body promised to be raised alive forever in glory (holy, sinless).
His…habitat to be on Earth, made a new in the likeness as Heaven.
God to be with that man forever.
That man to be with God forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Deborah_]

I think it is safe to replace the word love which Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 13 with God. 1 John tells us that God is love and Paul defines love.
We assume God keeps a record of wrongs because we assume that God will judge us, ie, he will find all the bad bits and do something about it as if he is obliged to payback, but Jesus shows us that God does not operate like that by praying for his executioners. We also see the same spirit in Stephan while he is being stoned; he prays, 'do not hold this sin against them' Acts 7:60

It's not "safe" if you then use Paul's definition of love to deny other aspects of God's nature. Paul himself says that "we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10) So God does judge us - though perhaps not in the way that you seem to imagine. We will all stand in need of the atoning blood of Christ on Judgement Day, but those of us who trust in Him don't need to fear God's judgement..

 

[Lambano]

Is that even the right question?

 

[Lambano]

I've heard it called "the free gift that'll cost you everything".

 

[rwb]

It's not "safe" if you then use Paul's definition of love to deny other aspects of God's nature. Paul himself says that "we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10) So God does judge us - though perhaps not in the way that you seem to imagine. We will all stand in need of the atoning blood of Christ on Judgement Day, but those of us who trust in Him don't need to fear God's judgement..

You've hit the crux of the question. In salvation man is saved from the penalty that comes from sin that is eternal death, but as long as we are alive in this world, in bodies destined to die, we shall never be completely free from every sin. The blessing is that when we do fall into sin, as Christians we have Christ to be our Advocate before the Father, that our sins in Him will not lead us to eternal death. But as has been said, our sins have consequences in this life, because God chastens whom He loves.

 

[Ziggy]

we shall never be completely free from every sin.

I didn't have to think too long and hard on that one.
I don't steal, I don't lie, I don't commit adultery, I don't care what my neighbor has or doesn't have, I love God, I don't use his name in vain,
I don't have any idols, I respect my parents, I haven't killed anyone, and I keep his sabbath daily. I got the order messed up but it's the same.

However... sometimes I get thinking about not so nice rebuttals, and end up deleting a lot of posts that would be meant to retaliate or to intentionally hurt anothers feelings.
I'm kind of a rash person and usually try not to hit that reply button without checking where that "emotional response" is coming from.
What is the intention? To build up or tear down?

So yeah, even though we keep from sinning in the flesh, I don't think we're ever truly free from sinning from our thoughts.
That takes a lot of "work" by monitoring yourself and catching yourself before you say something that is totally not edifying.
And if I do hit that reply button without correcting the "error of my ways" , I definately get a conscience burn from the Holy Spirit.
I shouldn't have said that. I wish I hadn't said it that way....
Learning how to be humble takes time and effort.
I "sin" less now than I did before, but nowhere nears perfect. And I often ask Jesus to forgive my thoughts.
A guilty conscience is the hardest thing to live with, in my opinion.

Hugs

 

[rwb]

I didn't have to think too long and hard on that one.
I don't steal, I don't lie, I don't commit adultery, I don't care what my neighbor has or doesn't have, I love God, I don't use his name in vain,
I don't have any idols, I respect my parents, I haven't killed anyone, and I keep his sabbath daily. I got the order messed up but it's the same.

However... sometimes I get thinking about not so nice rebuttals, and end up deleting a lot of posts that would be meant to retaliate or to intentionally hurt anothers feelings.
I'm kind of a rash person and usually try not to hit that reply button without checking where that "emotional response" is coming from.
What is the intention? To build up or tear down?

So yeah, even though we keep from sinning in the flesh, I don't think we're ever truly free from sinning from our thoughts.
That takes a lot of "work" by monitoring yourself and catching yourself before you say something that is totally not edifying.
And if I do hit that reply button without correcting the "error of my ways" , I definately get a conscience burn from the Holy Spirit.
I shouldn't have said that. I wish I hadn't said it that way....
Learning how to be humble takes time and effort.
I "sin" less now than I did before, but nowhere nears perfect. And I often ask Jesus to forgive my thoughts.
A guilty conscience is the hardest thing to live with, in my opinion.

Hugs

You and I are in complete agreement here. I agree we tend to be reactionary creatures even knowing we ought to always choose to do good and sin not. Like you, I no longer allow sin to reign supreme, but also like you I sometimes (too often perhaps) tend to react before taking a moment to remember that the Spirit of Christ in me will keep me from sin when I take the time to listen to Him. When I don't, I too experience a guilty conscience and as you've said that is a hard thing to live with.

Hugs to you also Ziggy!
May your Christmas be blessed and oh so Merry!

 

[Brakelite]

You asked this question...

subsequently my question...

If Jesus needed to die, then at least at that time was there not a record of sin? Where did that sin come from that was laid upon Christ of not from the recorded entries in the books of heaven? The record of our own sin today is recorded until such time as we accept Christ...and at the end of time Satan beasts his party in tempting us to do evil, as well as his own sin, and is punished. Those who refuse to accept Christ take their sin back upon themselves and suffer the consequences of not having a redeemer to save them. Not sure if that answers your question.

 

[Brakelite]

I didn't have to think too long and hard on that one.
I don't steal, I don't lie, I don't commit adultery, I don't care what my neighbor has or doesn't have, I love God, I don't use his name in vain,
I don't have any idols, I respect my parents, I haven't killed anyone, and I keep his sabbath daily. I got the order messed up but it's the same.

However... sometimes I get thinking about not so nice rebuttals, and end up deleting a lot of posts that would be meant to retaliate or to intentionally hurt anothers feelings.
I'm kind of a rash person and usually try not to hit that reply button without checking where that "emotional response" is coming from.
What is the intention? To build up or tear down?

So yeah, even though we keep from sinning in the flesh, I don't think we're ever truly free from sinning from our thoughts.
That takes a lot of "work" by monitoring yourself and catching yourself before you say something that is totally not edifying.
And if I do hit that reply button without correcting the "error of my ways" , I definately get a conscience burn from the Holy Spirit.
I shouldn't have said that. I wish I hadn't said it that way....
Learning how to be humble takes time and effort.
I "sin" less now than I did before, but nowhere nears perfect. And I often ask Jesus to forgive my thoughts.
A guilty conscience is the hardest thing to live with, in my opinion.

Hugs

You are growing, and rosebuds, though not mature, are still perfect in every stage of their growth. We don't have to be free from sin in order to be perfect. Do long as we are growing and tending in the right direction, we are safe.

 

[quietthinker]

If Jesus needed to die, then at least at that time was there not a record of sin? Where did that sin come from that was laid upon Christ of not from the recorded entries in the books of heaven? The record of our own sin today is recorded until such time as we accept Christ...and at the end of time Satan beasts his party in tempting us to do evil, as well as his own sin, and is punished. Those who refuse to accept Christ take their sin back upon themselves and suffer the consequences of not having a redeemer to save them. Not sure if that answers your question.

I think we (Christianity/ Christians) have assumed wrongly and therefore have asked the wrong questions.
Asking 'if Jesus needed to die' is one of those questions if I might be so bold as to say so.
Jesus died because we killed him....we killed him because his purity and generosity were an affront to us. It highlighted our tightfistedness, our greed and our wickedness. It was unbearable so we got rid of him.

In the light of this I would say Jesus didn't need to die. Jesus came to bring the good news of God's Kingdom as opposed to the miserable reality of the kingdom of men.

God knew we would kill him but he came anyway. He even told us ahead of time through the institution of the lamb sacrifice that we would kill an innocent and harmless victim......which is what we did to Jesus.

God's tenderness towards his creatures, his love, his generosity, his nurturing care were all demonstrated in Jesus' reality.....and beautifully articulated by Paul in his definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13

The idea that God orchestrated and had his Son killed by evil forces and wicked men (which incidentally pervades Christian thinking) because he needed blood to satisfy his offended justice is a page out of the rational of paganism.

A study on God's justice reveals it is liberation from oppression not payback, irrespective of how it is juggled.

 

[Truthnightmare]

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[quietthinker]

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

what was the price and who was it paid to?